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CVO Technical => Drive Train => Topic started by: FullBagger on June 08, 2015, 02:09:39 PM
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Does anyone else have a clutch that does not engage until the clutch lever is nearly 90% released.
The different "engage" position is not necessarily a problem. The problem is that I have to feather the clutch because that last little bit is very touchy. Once it begins to engage, if I release it even a hair more, it grabs and yanks the bike forward. Not horrible if I'm on top of it but a lot more than it would if the engage point was dead center the arch.
I know, I know, they are all different. But ...... it's not my first bike. This is also my second H-D with a hydraulic clutch. Last one was a 2014 Ultra Limited.
Example: Slow right hand turn. Release the clutch a hair more and then it yanks me into oncoming traffic or ....... even better, pull in the clutch lever to stay in my lane and lay her over. :oops:
Before anyone says it .... use the rear brake ...... right? :nixweiss:
Straight ahead take offs ..... who cares? Just a little jerky.
I've been told that there are no adjustments to this clutch. If that is the case, how could it be so different than any other HD with a hydraulic clutch I've ridden? (6 now not including testing new ones on the showroom floors at dealerships. All hydraulic.). I even rented twice on vacation. One 14 and one 15. I am even more careful when testing the clutch position on other bikes I ride because mine is so far out of center. Never had to give it much thought before.
Ok, that's my story. I'm reaching out to see if I have a one of a kind or what.
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It shouldn't be that way. The trick will be for you to find a shop that will take your complaint seriously and look for the problem, as opposed to the usual response of "they all do that", or "it's supposed to be like that", or similar BS. You could contact H-D Customer Service, but that seems to be a real crapshoot as well, depending on if you get someone who actually knows anything versus the ones who just repeat the same silly crap the dealerships tell people.
What kind of miles do you have on the bike, and what are you using for primary fluid?
Jerry
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Does anyone else have a clutch that does not engage until the clutch lever is nearly 90% released.
The different "engage" position is not necessarily a problem. The problem is that I have to feather the clutch because that last little bit is very touchy. Once it begins to engage, if I release it even a hair more, it grabs and yanks the bike forward. Not horrible if I'm on top of it but a lot more than it would if the engage point was dead center the arch.
I know, I know, they are all different. But ...... it's not my first bike. This is also my second H-D with a hydraulic clutch. Last one was a 2014 Ultra Limited.
Example: Slow right hand turn. Release the clutch a hair more and then it yanks me into oncoming traffic or ....... even better, pull in the clutch lever to stay in my lane and lay her over. :oops:
Before anyone says it .... use the rear brake ...... right? :nixweiss:
Straight ahead take offs ..... who cares? Just a little jerky.
I've been told that there are no adjustments to this clutch. If that is the case, how could it be so different than any other HD with a hydraulic clutch I've ridden? (6 now not including testing new ones on the showroom floors at dealerships. All hydraulic.). I even rented twice on vacation. One 14 and one 15. I am even more careful when testing the clutch position on other bikes I ride because mine is so far out of center. Never had to give it much thought before.
Ok, that's my story. I'm reaching out to see if I have a one of a kind or what.
Bleed the clutch
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Bleed the clutch, like Redmoon stated.
I changed the fluid in mine lately and did not get it bled enough the first time and it was doing that, got it right the next time.
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Thank you grc, chaos901 and redmoon!
I have just rolled over 5200 miles. Dealership did nothing to address the problem. Said they did not notice a problem. Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot! How could you not notice? Just going through the motions of doing the 5K I guess.
If bleeding the clutch is all it is, Ill be much happier with the bike. Heck, I even started looking for aftermarket clutch systems for the bike. Imagine that, a new 15CVO and the owner is looking at a replacement clutch system. If potential buyers are reading this, know what you are getting into before you buy. I'm not saying I hate the bike or anything. Just read more posts and make your own decision about if you want to get into bed with HD (The Motor Company).
I called HD Customer Care and they told me, "The factory technician said there are no adjustments and there is no standard or range that the clutch should engage so there is nothing HD can do". Not an exact quote but close enough.
I got what I expected for a 40K bike. They did listen but did nothing.
You listened read and gave me a suggestion based on experience.
Have you been riding bikes for over 100 years? That's how long HD has been building them. Think they may have suggested that? Or maybe even the dealer would have tried it.
I'll bleed them and see if that cures the problem. Keep you posted and thanks again!
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The isn't the first clutch engagement complaint we've heard about... Hope bleeding squares it away because apparently there is little that can be done otherwise.
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Considering how the system works, if you had air in the system the release and engagement points would be closer to the grip, not out at the other extreme. That used to be a major problem, since H-D didn't bleed the system worth chit at the factory when the CVO's were assembled off-line. I had to bleed mine as soon as I got home from picking up my 2005, since the clutch barely released and it was almost impossible to shift gears. (Fine quality and equally fine prep by the dealer, and just the first of too many problems to go into right now.)
By all means go ahead and bleed the system, just in case. Also, make sure your bike isn't involved in the clutch master cylinder recalls. They've had three so far.
I would still check the primary fluid level and make certain it isn't overfilled. If you had the dealer do the 5k service instead of doing it yourself, never assume they did it correctly. If all else fails, look for a good mechanic somewhere who actually knows something about clutches and have him check it out. There are many things that can cause the grabby engagement and improper engagement point, and the fact that the system isn't adjustable like a cable version doesn't have a thing to do with it.
Jerry
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:confused5:
"Example: Slow right hand turn. Release the clutch a hair more and then it yanks me into oncoming traffic or ....... even better, pull in the clutch lever to stay in my lane and lay her over. :oops: "
I'll first say that having a clutch lever that engages way late, (in a car or on the bike) can be a real pain.........hope the suggestions offered help t resolve it.
Meantime, (especially.......knowing that the clutch does what it does), I'm clueless as to why you would be even grabbing the damn clutch lever in the middle of a slow turn and/or to (stay in your lane). :nixweiss:
Either there is something in the way you're describing your clutch problems (when they occur), or your riding "style" and when you decide to be going for the clutch lever...........are kinda different from mine. :-\
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Hope this brings some clarity. It's funny how I can read what I wrote and it makes perfect sense but sounds absurd to others.
Not during a slow turn, but just starting to take off on a tight turn. (Right hand onto adjoining road, U-Turn, etc.) Because it is a tight turn, I said slow. Wrong choice of descriptive words.
Based on how I described the problem, I see why you asked in no uncertain terms ...... "Why would you ever do that?"
I hope it fixes the problem too.
Thanks for your input.
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You have a master cylinder problem or something. If the system had air the release would be closer, not further out. I am on my 3rd HD hydraulic bike and I love them. They all have released a little further out than the average cable system but after 5 -10 miles you get used to it an all is good. My current 15 is great and I know of two more here local that also are fine.
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Oh, btw, I forgot to add in my earlier post the simplest of all items to check. Check the master cylinder reservoir fluid level. Too much fluid in the reservoir could also cause your problem, since the actuator can't return to it's fully released position if the reservoir is full. That would move the release and engagement points further away from the grip, eventually to the point of the clutch slipping.
Jerry
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Thanks for all of the input!
CVODON: This is the second I've owned (Loved the first clutch) and this one is not just a little far out, it engages way the heck out.
grc: Thanks for your follow-up. I can read from your tone that you are as frustrated with HD quality a I am. It may be the last new HD for me. I hate to say this but HD needs some real competition to get the chit together. Quality control is so bad, I'm surprised they can stay in business. Then again, they made it through AMF.
I'll start asking around for a good mechanic that does not work for HD if bleeding the system does not work. I'll go ahead and bleed the system anyway just to check that off the list. Doesn't make sense to me but what the heck. At this point I'll try anything .... well almost.
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HD has had recalls on the clutch assembly but I don't know if that impacts your model. The fluid level can be checked by looking through the check glass just to make sure it is not too high or to low. If this was my bike I would make the dealer fix it!
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RonandJanet:
Thanks. Have an appointment on Saturday to bleed the lines.
During the 5K the dealer said "I didn't notice a problem". Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot! are you kidding?
Good or Bad, mine is not on the recall list.
Just had a buddy ride it. The first words out of his mouth was, "And they said they didn't see a problem?". Normally a dealership's idea of a problem, car or bike, is only if it is broke. Technically, the clutch works.
Even though I have 5200 miles on it, I am still expecting the clutch to engage at a certain (normal) point. Once in a while, I pull the clutch back in to make sure I am in gear because I forgot that the clutch extends so far before engaging. If it weren't hydraulic, I'd be adjusting the cable a long time ago.
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Not sure why everyone thinks dealer techs should know a problem. Most of them are self taught, they do not own high end bikes (or cars) and ride a dozen different bikes a day that have cable clutches adjusted every which way and hydraulic ones that release further out as a rule, so one a little further out... why would that set off a bulb for them. Also they only get paid to do or repair whatever they are assigned the bike for, diag work does not pay unless authorized and they are working for a living.
Anyone who has ever worked at a car/boat/bike dealer know the public is a pain and wants eveything for free and gradually over time you quit caring and only do what you have to to get by. Not good but the way it is.
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mongenix, My dealer is pretty good and I can speak to the tech and have a good discussion about the issue. I know when I first got mine I thought the clutch was out of adjustment as well. But the dealer showed that it was the same as other bikes. I paid a lot of attention to the clutch going home and back to work this morning. This is subjective of course but I would say it begins to engage at about 75% out. It took me a little while to used to it and learn how to "feather" the clutch as well. I do a lot of riding in town (going to work) and I have to work the clutch a lot. I don't even notice it any more. I am pretty sure there are no adjustments on these clutches but as I mentioned earlier there were (are) recalls. If the dealer still says it is normal ask to ride another one for comparison. Good luck and let us know what happens.
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If it where mine, I'd do a complete rebleed, and retry. If its the same, I'd then remove the lever, check to see that the piston is travelling all the way out. If it is and there is no play in the lever, you may be able to introduce a little by filing the contact point where it meets the piston. Even a little freeplay with the piston fully extended would move the engagement point in towards the grip. To be effective the piston must be at full extension, or it would pump back up and fix nothing! I'd remove only a few .000's at a time from the lever and recheck.
With quality control going the way it has at HD, it wouldn't surprise me that the levers vary, the piston travel varies etc,etc. They seemed to be a to make two or more parts the same at one time, now they are reverting to no two alike, just like back in the 40's, where most had to hand fitted or shimmed. JM2C FWIW Buffalo
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Not sure why everyone thinks dealer techs should know a problem. Most of them are self taught, they do not own high end bikes (or cars) and ride a dozen different bikes a day that have cable clutches adjusted every which way and hydraulic ones that release further out as a rule, so one a little further out... why would that set off a bulb for them. Also they only get paid to do or repair whatever they are assigned the bike for, diag work does not pay unless authorized and they are working for a living.
Anyone who has ever worked at a car/boat/bike dealer know the public is a pain and wants eveything for free and gradually over time you quit caring and only do what you have to to get by. Not good but the way it is.
So what you're saying is that all that talk and advertising about "factory trained technicians" is just a bunch of hooey? Damn, now I'm feeling used and abused, and may have to go lay down and take a nap.
What you described is very common in many Harley dealerships unfortunately. Those are the places I expect a good manufacturer to crack down on, but I don't see any sign of it happening with H-D.
As for the clutch issue, it's no longer necessary to have a CVO to have a hydraulic clutch. They made hydraulic clutches standard in 2014 on all fairing equipped Touring models, so service departments should be very familiar with them these days.
Jerry
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Not sure why everyone thinks dealer techs should know a problem. Most of them are self taught, they do not own high end bikes (or cars) and ride a dozen different bikes a day that have cable clutches adjusted every which way and hydraulic ones that release further out as a rule, so one a little further out... why would that set off a bulb for them. Also they only get paid to do or repair whatever they are assigned the bike for, diag work does not pay unless authorized and they are working for a living.
Anyone who has ever worked at a car/boat/bike dealer know the public is a pain and wants eveything for free and gradually over time you quit caring and only do what you have to to get by. Not good but the way it is.
Wow, to expect an HD tech to understand a hydraulic clutch system and tell me why the ones on the showroom engage in a different place than mine? Not just a little different either, a freeking he11 of a lot.
Boy, am I an a$$.
Look, I understand the public is a pain but I even told them I would pay for their time to look into it ....... nothing.
I even told them that if needed, I would pay to have the system replaced! It is that bad!
Now I am looking for a non HD mechanic to see if they can help.
I am easy to get along with (my wife might argue that point) but I can never get any solid advice or help from HD about anything I have ever asked a tech or manager. It's like a dear in the headlights.....Even when I offer to pay for their time.
Change oil .... cool
Trans oil ..... no problem
Tire change ---- good to go
Why does my primary sound like it is about to come apart ....... duh???
It's like they do not want to say the wrong thing and get in trouble. It is what it is man! Just tell me how to fix it!
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2014 CVO RK here...I noticed my clutch releases late too and was wondering if that was a problem. I'll be interested to hear the result of yours.
Please keep us posted.
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Update:
Bled the clutch. Helped a little bit but still not where it "should be". It is, however, tolerable. It was not before they bled it.
What I mean by "should be" is anywhere between 20% and 80% lever release. Mine is still at about 85% before it engages.
I have it in the shop for full exhaust and tune. They said they would bleed them again to see if it improves even more. I will post again after the second bleed.
The brakes are now starting to surge. A warped rotor I suspect.
NMLazz, have the clutch bled, it may help yours. At least I hope so!
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I hope it does get a lot better for you. Unfortunately after the next bleeding of the brakes you may not see as much of a gain. I think that for the hydraulic clutches you will not get the feel and release as the cable clutches provided. I hope it does get a lot better for you.
How many miles do you have and do you have ABS? I have had some hard stops and with the ABS kicking in it is a lot harder to warp the rotors then it used to be due to ABS. I would think the rotors would not warp very easily until they get worn down a lot.
It will be interesting to see what you find out on both items.
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Nope. No difference.
Clutch is still about 85% released before the bike starts moving. Yes, it does engage a little earlier than that but not enough to get the bike moving. Just reduce engine rpm a little.
I know it will never be like a cable system but I would think it would be within the ballpark of the other 10+, 2014/15 hydraulic clutch bikes I have owned and tested.
All are different but many times the bike surprises me with how late it engages. I pull in the clutch, toe down on the shift lever, and look for the "N" to see if I am in neutral! I still do this sometimes after 6000 miles. I would think I'd be used to it by now..... I'm not.
Just as a note, my glove size is XXL so it's not a reach issue and it's my third full dresser.
If this system is truly not adjustable, can the individual part specifications be so far off that mine is no where near center? How about some quality control folks?
I'm beating a dead horse here.
If anyone knows a good mechanic (somewhere near southern Ohio) at a shop that knows the HD hydraulic system, I would pay to have it fixed or replaced with an aftermarket system.
Wow, don't believe I just said that after paying 40K.
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If this system is truly not adjustable, can the individual part specifications be so far off that mine is no where near center? How about some quality control folks?
This is where I was about to go.
The clutch consists of a master cylinder and a slave cylinder, when one moves, the other moves, they have a limited range, and as has been said, no adjustability.
But, the one thing that can change is the thickness of the clutch plate stack, which it will as it wears, and the slave cylinder will have to travel further to allow the plates to squeeze together.
Unfortuntely, I'm just 2 weeks into owning my first bike with this system, and i haven't gotten a service manual yet or I'd be looking into this further for you. There has to be some way to compensate for wear, and some way to "reset" the system if you put in new thicker parts.
Food for thought.........
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The system works just like your brakes and there is no need to "reset" anything, just like you don't need to reset anything when you install new brake pads. The one difference is that as your brakes wear more fluid moves to the caliper, whereas when your clutch disks wear more fluid moves back to the master cylinder. So while you may need to add a little fluid to the brake MC if your pads are worn, you will need to be careful to not overfill the clutch MC and may even need to remove some fluid as the clutch wears. Installing new disks will only require you to verify the correct fluid level. The rest is automatic.
The actual pushrod that transfers motion from the actuator (slave cylinder) to the clutch release plate is a nonadjustable rod, unlike the cable clutch models. If it was the wrong length, that could cause a problem because it could cause the actuator to reach the limit of it's travel. The same applies to the thickness of the entire clutch pack, the dimensions of the release plate, the distance from the actuator to the release plate, etc.. With the proper specs and tools, all of this could be measured and verified. Don't hold your breath waiting for a dealer or H-D to do this. H-D likes wide tolerances so they can tell everyone that everything is "normal" or "in spec". As their quality has gotten worse, their tolerances have gotten wider. Keeps the warranty costs down.
Jerry
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Although I know nothing of them, there is a company that produces adjustable levers for '14 and up FL hydraulic units. http://www.hogleverage.com/php/categories.php
I have OEM and aftermarket adjustable levers on other hydraulic equipped bikes which work well for me as I prefer the engagement point further out for normal riding, but close to the grip for cone courses.
Most may not prefer the aesthetics on a CVO, however it my be a viable alternative for those in need of a closer engagement point.
I also do not know if Hog Levers uses a proven system for hydraulics such as Pazzo industries, which unfortunately do not manufacture anything for HD
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FullBagger, I feel your frustration...
One thing I did not notice in just reviewing the entire thread is this; you say you now have 5200 miles on the bike and you're complaining about the clutch lever engagement position of the lever.
How did the bike perform when it was new with zero miles? If I missed this in an early post, I'm sorry for bring it up now...
You say you just had another CVO '14 with hydraulic clutch and it was okay. I would have thought hopping from the old "okay" bike to the new, "not okay" bike, it would have been a red flag before you ever had 100 on it.
So, did it always engage like it does now? If so, you just lived with it for 5k miles. Or did it work okay and then go bad around 5000 miles?
This could shed light onto the "wear" issues or "bad parts" from the beginning.
I'm not being critical of your complaint, just would like to know if it's always been this way or just started to do the funky release position.
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The only way to diagnose and correct the clutch engagement point is to mechanically diagnose the system. If the clutch is engaging to "late", and the master cylinder is not overfilled, then there is a mechanical reason. I would first measure (with a dial indicator) the amount of clutch plate lift - the amount of push rod travel you get when you squeeze the clutch lever. All things being as designed, the pushrod is designed to travel .065" when you squeeze the clutch lever. If you have less than .065", you likely have air in the system. (Air in the system would result in the clutch engaging to soon rather than to late, or not releasing at all.) In my experience typical pushrod movement in a properly bled system is .065" to .073". If you have the proper amount of pushrod movement, then your master cylinder and slave cylinder are functioning as designed. If you have the proper amount of travel, yet the clutch engaging "late", then either the pushrod is to long (with a 6 speed transmission, the push rod should be 15.552" long), the clutch plates are to thin, or there is another mechanical deficiency. It could be bent snap rings in the release plate assembly causing the issue. But rest assured, if you have the proper amount of clutch plate lift, something mechanical in the release mechanism or clutch hub assembly is either damaged, worn or was manufactured out of tolerance, causing the clutch lever to engage the clutch mechanism to late.
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Dan_Lockwood,
Great point! No offense taken. I've lived with it for 6k now. At the risk of sounding like a broken record (oops, showing my age here), I hope this answers your questions.
I have taken it to several dealers, called HD Customer Service and they all said, in no uncertain terms, "There is nothing we can do, they are all different".
Every HD motorcycle I've had, was "unique". I use that term loosely. I think HD calls this NORMAL.
I noticed the problem early on. At first I thought I just needed to get used to the bike's unique characteristics. After 1500 miles or so, I was convinced that the engagement point was so far out that there was nearly nothing left in the lever once it started to engage. This in itself is not the problem. The thing I cannot get used to is that it is like a cam. Once you hit a certain point it "rolls" past the lobe and quickly fully engages. There is very little movement between the beginning of engagement and fully engaged. I keep hoping I'll get used to it but I feel like a newbie with the clutch in this bike.
Letting the clutch out is an exciting time. Especially from dead stop to tight turn. Holly sh1t! I actually have to concentrate to finesse the clutch and rear break to keep from dumping it. Haven't had to think about things like that in a long time. Don't get me wrong, I'm not the worlds gift to MC riding but I'd rather be thinking about other hazards like gravel, diesel fuel spills and other vehicles .... not the clutch.
Maybe if I have the clutch replaced, it will help. It really is a challenge at times.
sadunbar
Thank you for your insight. I'll have another discussion with the techs about working "with me" to diagnose the problem. I truly believe it is a problem and outside of normal operation. I'll spend the money to fix it, I just want it fixed.
Thanks to all for your responses and support.
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You might want to update your profile putting in at least a general location. It's entirely possible there
is someone reading this saying "if he was close to me I'd be willing to help".
If you were close to me I'd take my personal bike apart to compare to yours if it would help.
In fact, looking at the parts diagrams, I can see a couple places that could potentially be adjusted/shimmed/etc to adjust the "non-adjustable" mechanism.
Even putting an extra gasket or 2 behind the side cover(where the slave cylinder is mounted) could make a significant difference.
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Even putting an extra gasket or 2 behind the side cover(where the slave cylinder is mounted) could make a significant difference.
Piston would just move to take up the new stack.
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Piston would just move to take up the new stack.
Depends, is the slave cylinder spring returned internally or does the clutch push it back??
As it is now, it's engaging too late, which means it also disengages too early. If you can introduce some slack it will move the lever position.
At this point he needs a "what if" answer, not a "this is how it is" answer.
There has to be something different, mine certainly doesn't work the way he is describing.
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Depends, is the slave cylinder spring returned internally or does the clutch push it back??
As it is now, it's engaging too late, which means it also disengages too early. If you can introduce some slack it will move the lever position.
At this point he needs a "what if" answer, not a "this is how it is" answer.
There has to be something different, mine certainly doesn't work the way he is describing.
With all due respect, what he, or a qualified technician, needs to do is perform basic troubleshooting of the mechanism. Measure travel, measure components, inspect for damage, find the out of spec. component and replace it with a proper component. Doubling up a gasket is only a temporary fix (if it were a fix, which it is not) if there is a part failing, such as a failing snap ring, for example. While I appreciate your sentiment and good intentions, it's a fairly simple assembly with very few components. It would not take much effort from someone with a basic understanding and a few tools to properly diagnose and fix the issue... He needs to find the right shop or friend with the necessary skills to help him out.
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The slave cylinder has a small spring, but it is used to maintain zero lash with the piston,pushrod, and release plate, not to pull the piston back. The attachment is from the instructions for the rebuild kit for the CVO actuators, 2004 to present.
Jerry
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it's a fairly simple assembly with very few components.
Agreed, which is why someone should have quit saying "that's the way it is" after about the 2nd visit to the dealership.
However, when we pay techs flat rate their primary objective is to move bikes in and out, rather than actually fix them.
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tdkkart and sadnubar,
Thanks for your help and suggestions.
There is not too much fluid in the master cylinder so it's a mechanical problem. In fact, it was a bit low after they bled the system.
I'm no MC mechanic but wrenched on many a car before. Couldn't afford to buy newer ones. Just old beaters and lots of busted knuckles.
I have the tools, torque wrenches, calipers and dial indicators. If not the right one, I will borrow or buy one. I just have no hydraulic clutch experience.
I suspect it's not rocket science ... it's a hydraulic/mechanical system. I just need to get a service manual, set aside a little time (maybe a lot) and tear into it.
What's the worst that can happen ..... I screw something up. It's already that!
You are both right. The mechanics should do some basic troubleshooting. If they rode it for a day, they would!
2 minutes around the block is the extent of the troubleshooting so far. I suppose if it works, it's good to go.
Yesterday I noticed that, at times, it seemed tolerable. At other times, I'd think "Am I in neutral?" and start looking for the "N" again. It's not a hot or cold thing either. Doesn't matter if I just started riding or hours later.
If this was my first bike, I'd probably quit riding by now. I'd be thinking, "I can't get ahold of this clutch thing." But it's not. and it's not my first HD hydraulic clutch so I know how they should be.
I'm really missing my cable and turnbuckle.
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The slave cylinder will always have enough travel in it allow for wear on the other components such as the pushrod and clutch plates. If it bottomed out, it wouldn't be able to take up the slack for full travel.
The Master cylinder, on the other hand, must return to full outwards travel every time, in other words come to its max travel so the fluid will release it pressure into the reserve.
If you remove the lever, you should be able to see that the master cyl piston is coming all the way out to its internal stop. At that point, he lever should not be touching the piston. If it is the piston may not be traveling all the way to it stop. If the lever pushes the piston in, even a couple of thousanths of an inch, it may not release the line pressure fully.
If your certain the master piston is reaching full outward travel, you can remove material from the lever where it touches the piston, allowing the lever to have a a little play when fully out. Even a few .000's can make the release point closer to the grips. Buffalo
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twinotter
Thanks, I'll check that out this weekend. (Hope I have time)
A couple of things I have not mentioned yet. May not mean anything but for you more experienced folks, it may mean a lot.
On the first ride of the day, engine and trans cold, it does not go into 1st gear even though the foot shift lever hits a hard stop.
Sequence:
Pull in clutch
Verify trans in neutral
Start bike
Push down on foot shift lever (No classic CLUNK!)
Look to see if it is still in "N" (Sometimes no but most of the time yes)
<If NO - Take off and go>
<If YES - Continue to next step>
Pull in clutch
Pushdown on foot shift lever again (there it is, the all familiar CLUNK)
Take off and go.
Once, but only once, it popped out of first and the gears ground on it until I pulled the clutch back in.
I was told this was also normal. "Until tensioner wears in",they said.
Sorry I left these little tidbits out until now if they mean anything to anyone.
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The slave cylinder will always have enough travel in it allow for wear on the other components such as the pushrod and clutch plates. If it bottomed out, it wouldn't be able to take up the slack for full travel.
The Master cylinder, on the other hand, must return to full outwards travel every time, in other words come to its max travel so the fluid will release it pressure into the reserve.
If you remove the lever, you should be able to see that the master cyl piston is coming all the way out to its internal stop. At that point, he lever should not be touching the piston. If it is the piston may not be traveling all the way to it stop. If the lever pushes the piston in, even a couple of thousanths of an inch, it may not release the line pressure fully.
If your certain the master piston is reaching full outward travel, you can remove material from the lever where it touches the piston, allowing the lever to have a a little play when fully out. Even a few .000's can make the release point closer to the grips. Buffalo
Of course, using a dial indicator to measure the actual pushrod travel will instantly tell you if this is where the problem lies. If there is .065 pushrod travel, the master cylinder (and slave cylinder) is working as it should, and the problem lies elsewhere.
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twinotter
Thanks, I'll check that out this weekend. (Hope I have time)
A couple of things I have not mentioned yet. May not mean anything but for you more experienced folks, it may mean a lot.
On the first ride of the day, engine and trans cold, it does not go into 1st gear even though the foot shift lever hits a hard stop.
Sequence:
Pull in clutch
Verify trans in neutral
Start bike
Push down on foot shift lever (No classic CLUNK!)
Look to see if it is still in "N" (Sometimes no but most of the time yes)
<If NO - Take off and go>
<If YES - Continue to next step>
Pull in clutch
Pushdown on foot shift lever again (there it is, the all familiar CLUNK)
Take off and go.
Once, but only once, it popped out of first and the gears ground on it until I pulled the clutch back in.
I was told this was also normal. "Until tensioner wears in",they said.
Sorry I left these little tidbits out until now if they mean anything to anyone.
All this really means is you are talking to the wrong technician. There is nothing normal about any of this...
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The Wife's :pumpkin: had the same issue that the clutch lever was to far out. The return orifice in the clutch master cylinder had plugged. So no or limited return path. Cleaned the orifice (hole). Works correctly now.
:bananarock: :bananarock:
Brad
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All this really means is you are talking to the wrong technician. There is nothing normal about any of this...
Agreed!
Two different dealerships, three different technicians.
Even called HD customer service (that's a joke).
So, the clutch is not normal and the trans shifting is not normal.
No one has time to give a sh1t.
It seems that it's not about fixing things, it's about getting bikes in and out.
hdbrad03,
I'll look at that this weekend also. Again, if I'm not working.
Thanks for letting me know what fixed hers.
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Agreed!
Two different dealerships, three different technicians.
Even called HD customer service (that's a joke).
So, the clutch is not normal and the trans shifting is not normal.
No one has time to give a sh1t.
It seems that it's not about fixing things, it's about getting bikes in and out.
hdbrad03,
I'll look at that this weekend also. Again, if I'm not working.
Thanks for letting me know what fixed hers.
Be sure to get a service manual and parts manual for your specific bike...
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The Wife's :pumpkin: had the same issue that the clutch lever was to far out. The return orifice in the clutch master cylinder had plugged. So no or limited return path. Cleaned the orifice (hole). Works correctly now.
:bananarock: :bananarock:
Brad
EXACTLY! And guess what kinds of problems Harley has been having with Rushed More hydraulic clutches. Debris from defective piston seals is one of the many problems I remember from the recalls.
FullBagger, if you remember I earlier mentioned how an overfilled reservoir could cause your problem by not allowing the slave cylinder to fully retract. Well this is another way the same thing can happen even if the fluid level is OK. With the master cylinder level, or as close as you can get it by moving the bars, protect surrounding painted parts, remove the cap, and observe the fluid while carefully squeezing the lever slightly. If the port is open like it should be, you should get a short spurt of fluid in the reservoir before the piston advances far enough to close off the port. If that port is blocked, it would create the early release and late engagement you've reported. And the more I think about your problem, the more I seem to remember someone else reporting a similar problem last year that only got fixed when the dealership was finally convinced to replace the master cylinder.
Jerry
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grc, I checked the level but did not depress the lever.
I have a J&S Jack and will put it in the air, turn the bars to right and perform the test you described.
I'll let you know how it goes.
Thanks
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Update:
Fluid level was good.
I found a local HD service department that agreed with me. It is not working as it should.
Both the service manager and a senior tech tested the bike.
The Motor Company agreed to allow work to be done to fix the problem.
First step will be a rebuild of the master cylinder.
I will keep this post updated as work is done for reference if someone else has the same problem.
Thanks for everyone's input!
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Allright! Making progress!
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Well,
Rebuilt the master cylinder.
No improvement.
Just going to step through the system piece by piece.
I will keep this updated.
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Does anyone else have a clutch that does not engage until the clutch lever is nearly 90% released.
The different "engage" position is not necessarily a problem. The problem is that I have to feather the clutch because that last little bit is very touchy. Once it begins to engage, if I release it even a hair more, it grabs and yanks the bike forward. Not horrible if I'm on top of it but a lot more than it would if the engage point was dead center the arch.
I know, I know, they are all different. But ...... it's not my first bike. This is also my second H-D with a hydraulic clutch. Last one was a 2014 Ultra Limited.
Example: Slow right hand turn. Release the clutch a hair more and then it yanks me into oncoming traffic or ....... even better, pull in the clutch lever to stay in my lane and lay her over. :oops:
Before anyone says it .... use the rear brake ...... right? :nixweiss:
Straight ahead take offs ..... who cares? Just a little jerky.
I've been told that there are no adjustments to this clutch. If that is the case, how could it be so different than any other HD with a hydraulic clutch I've ridden? (6 now not including testing new ones on the showroom floors at dealerships. All hydraulic.). I even rented twice on vacation. One 14 and one 15. I am even more careful when testing the clutch position on other bikes I ride because mine is so far out of center. Never had to give it much thought before.
Ok, that's my story. I'm reaching out to see if I have a one of a kind or what.
No, you're not one of a kind. Mine (2014 FLHTKSE) is just the same, and I was thinking it was me! U-turns are particularly difficult, because the clutch only engages when the lever is nearly all the way out, and it's binary - fully engaged or fully disengaged. A suicide clutch! This is my fourth hydraulic clutch Glide, and the only one that's been like this. It's a nightmare, and is driving me crazy.
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Eqcons,
Very, very, very, (did I say VERY) sorry to hear you have the same problem. I thought it was just me too. Kept saying, "I'll get used to it". 7500 miles later, still not used to it and I dread U turns. I don't believe I just posted that!
It is a nightmare! It is impossible to explain to someone unless they ride it for a day or so.
Hey, here is the good news. Not great news but good.
I found a dealership that agreed with me that it was not right.
So far, they have rebuilt the master cylinder - No help.
Checked the movement of the slave cylinder - all good.
Verified there is nothing wrong with the clutch pack - all good.
They are now replacing the master cylinder to see if that fixes the problem.
This is my second hydraulic glide, not to mention the rentals and test rides, and this one is DANGEROUS!
Dumped it once. Should have hit the rear break when the clutch grabbed but I pulled it in a hair. Just enough loose all drive and over I went! Now I am just wearing out the rear break. I ride the heck out of it in tight, slow turns.
I knew it was going to happen though so I moved my highway pegs up a little because I noticed that if it went over, the pegs could twist and dig into my lower fairings causing expensive damage. Good thing I did!
If your pegs are low on the engine guard, you may want to move them up some .... or a lot.
I will keep this updated with the results.
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Eqcons,
Very, very, very, (did I say VERY) sorry to hear you have the same problem. I thought it was just me too. Kept saying, "I'll get used to it". 7500 miles later, still not used to it and I dread U turns. I don't believe I just posted that!
It is a nightmare! It is impossible to explain to someone unless they ride it for a day or so.
Hey, here is the good news. Not great news but good.
I found a dealership that agreed with me that it was not right.
So far, they have rebuilt the master cylinder - No help.
Checked the movement of the slave cylinder - all good.
Verified there is nothing wrong with the clutch pack - all good.
They are now replacing the master cylinder to see if that fixes the problem.
This is my second hydraulic glide, not to mention the rentals and test rides, and this one is DANGEROUS!
Dumped it once. Should have hit the rear break when the clutch grabbed but I pulled it in a hair. Just enough loose all drive and over I went! Now I am just wearing out the rear break. I ride the heck out of it in tight, slow turns.
I knew it was going to happen though so I moved my highway pegs up a little because I noticed that if it went over, the pegs could twist and dig into my lower fairings causing expensive damage. Good thing I did!
If your pegs are low on the engine guard, you may want to move them up some .... or a lot.
I will keep this updated with the results.
Yes, I'm 8000 miles in and I thought I'd get used to it too. As well as U-turns, pulling out from a junction to turn either left or right is awful, and I'm having to do the same as you with the rear brake. You either pull away like a scalded cat, or fall over. I also dumped mine in exactly the way you describe - it's impossible to slip the clutch properly.
On the highway peg thing - yes, been there done that. To save the edge of the legshield getting road rash, I buy the rubber batwing edging from the pre-Rushed More bikes, cut it in half (it's exactly the right length) and use contact adhesive to run it along the edge of your legshield. It looks neat too - you can see it in the pic I'm uploading.
Hope you find a solution - I'm all ears!
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Until MoCo re-designs the Hydraulic clutch... there will be no solutions ... it is what it is ....
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Until MoCo re-designs the Hydraulic clutch... there will be no solutions ... it is what it is ....
I do not say this lightly or out of spite.
If that is the case. Then I am done with HD. Mine will be for sale.
I don't give a rats a$$ what I ride. No offense to the die hard HD folks but as long as it is comfortable riding 2 up, safe and reliable, I'm happy.
This is my 4th new HD and because of previous experiences like this, I was a hair away from pulling the trigger on an Indian before buying this one. My wife made the final decision. The primary reason was the HD dealer network. Otherwise, I may have jumped ship.
With all that being said, I have to admit that the current dealer I am working with is doing all they can to fix the problem and I cannot ask more than that from anyone or any company.
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I do not say this lightly or out of spite.
If that is the case. Then I am done with HD. Mine will be for sale.
I don't give a rats a$$ what I ride. No offense to the die hard HD folks but as long as it is comfortable riding 2 up, safe and reliable, I'm happy.
This is my 4th new HD and because of previous experiences like this, I was a hair away from pulling the trigger on an Indian before buying this one. My wife made the final decision. The primary reason was the HD dealer network. Otherwise, I may have jumped ship.
With all that being said, I have to admit that the current dealer I am working with is doing all they can to fix the problem and I cannot ask more than that from anyone or any company.
Still no progress then? Have they replaced the master cylinder yet?
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The new one has arrived at the dealership. Scheduling the replacement for sometime this week .... I hope!
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The new one has arrived at the dealership. Scheduling the replacement for sometime this week .... I hope!
Let me know if that fixes it!
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Eqcons,
My bike is scheduled in on Saturday!
I will post as soon as possible after the installation.
I hope this is the cure!
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I have the same problem with my 2014 FLHTKSE and my HD dealer says its within spec (just enough free play).
The funny thing is the clutch was good right after the dealer did the recall last year, I put about 5K on it since then and now it is junk! The mechanic also told me every hydraulic clutch grabs in a different spot and he has no clue why!
I was also speaking to the sales manager and he told me he sold 8 brand new touring bikes in the past two weeks but they can’t let them leave the building until they fix the clutch issue that HD won’t give them the recall part.. he then said two of those 8 customers walked away from the deal. I think HD has a problem that they are hiding.
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Wow, to expect an HD tech to understand a hydraulic clutch system and tell me why the ones on the showroom engage in a different place than mine? Not just a little different either, a freeking he11 of a lot.
How can you tell the engagement points on a hydraulic clutch bike that is not running.
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How can you tell the engagement points on a hydraulic clutch bike that is not running.
Sit on the bike, put it in first, walk it forward, letting the clutch out until it grabs.
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Sit on the bike, put it in first, walk it forward, letting the clutch out untiol it grabs.
Yes, that would get you close. I have my 08 that engages so far out that a piece of ribbon disengage my clutch when it flew into the clutch lever.
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Sit on the bike, put it in first, walk it forward, letting the clutch out until it grabs.
While pushing it works.
I was permitted to start the bike while it was on the floor.
Clutch grabbed "about" half way out like all of the others I tested on showroom floors. Others I rented or borrowed, including a 2014 trike.
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Let me see if I understand.
You take the bike to the dealer and they tell you the bike is normal and works like it should.
You question them and they let you see other bikes on their floor and let you start them and the test confirms your suspicion.
How do they explain the difference?
I must be missing something.
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Let me see if I understand.
You take the bike to the dealer and they tell you the bike is normal and works like it should.
You question them and they let you see other bikes on their floor and let you start them and the test confirms your suspicion.
How do they explain the difference?
I must be missing something.
Yes!
Do you believe it?
The sales people and service folks just look at me and say "They are all different". (With the exception of the dealer I am currently working with)
My question to them was "If there are no adjustments, all parts are manufactured the same and they are installed in full size dressers. Then why the heck is mine so far out"?
The answers came from what looked like a "dear in headlights" with shrugging shoulders. They all said about the same. "There is no adjustment and there is nothing we can do because it is functioning."
Technically, they are correct. I let the clutch out and the bike moves. ALL IS GOOD!!!!! RIGHT?
I'm just amazed that I had to debate this technicality and then search for someone who will do the right thing. Fix it. Or at least attempt to.
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Eqcons,
My bike is scheduled in on Saturday!
I will post as soon as possible after the installation.
I hope this is the cure!
Done????
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Sorry for the delay .... Unavoidable.
NO, not fixed! But not the end of the story.
I tried to type this response several times but since I don't understand how the entire clutch system works, I cannot post with any accuracy or knowledgeable information.
But here goes:
Something about the clutch and it having excessive wear where it rides in the cage. I have no idea what I'm talking about.
Bottom line, they still are not certain what is causing the problem but something seems to be binding where the clutch pack lives in the transmission. This is causing excessive wear and may be the problem. They are still working out the details with HD and what to do about it.
Again, sorry for the delay and I will keep this thread updated.
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Sorry for the delay .... Unavoidable.
NO, not fixed! But not the end of the story.
I tried to type this response several times but since I don't understand how the entire clutch system works, I cannot post with any accuracy or knowledgeable information.
But here goes:
Something about the clutch and it having excessive wear where it rides in the cage. I have no idea what I'm talking about.
Bottom line, they still are not certain what is causing the problem but something seems to be binding where the clutch pack lives in the transmission. This is causing excessive wear and may be the problem. They are still working out the details with HD and what to do about it.
Again, sorry for the delay and I will keep this thread updated.
Damn, that's a pity! :(
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Damn, that's a pity! :(
Yes it is but, they have not thrown in the towel yet. There is still hope that it will be fixed.
I am just glad that the dealership took this clutch issue on.
We never like hearing there is a problem but better to find out while it's on the mechanic's lift than to have it on a hook to the nearest mechanic.
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Seems pretty simple to me, but there again H-D is populated with simpletons who can't figure out simple things.
1. Find a new bike that the dealership and the customer agree operates satisfactorily.
2. Remove the entire clutch assembly from that bike (not just the plates, the entire thing).
3. Install the complete clutch assembly in your bike.
4. Operate your bike and see if this has cured your problem.
5 If it does, send you on your way and let the dealership ship your complete clutch assembly to H-D for them to figure out (assuming they can).
6. Harley to ship a complete clutch assembly to the dealer to replace the one they took from the bike in inventory.
This isn't something I just dreamed up after consuming excessive quantities of mind altering substances, btw. I actually did a few similar things back in the old days as a field service engineer/rep in the auto business. There comes a time when the manufacturer needs to step up and get the customer's vehicle fixed ASAP, and then worry about what the root cause of the problem is once the customer is taken care of.
Jerry
Btw, we didn't have lemon laws back in those days to motivate manufacturers to do the right thing on a timely basis. These days most states do in fact have such laws, and something as important as safe and proper engagement of a clutch should definitely be covered. If this had been my bike, I'd have been in touch with an attorney a long time ago.
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grc,
I'm just about there.
Had a new diesel VW that was in the shop over 90 days total in the first 7 months. It would not start hot (no trouble codes). They found that the clearance between the piston and cylinder walls were wrong. Dealer said they were going to rebuild the engine. Rebuild the engine in my new car, I don't think so. Contacted an attorney and VW wrote me a check to buy the car back.
Sounds simple but you have to jump through the right hoops at the right time to be successful with a lemon law buy back and it takes time.
If we determine that we have to go to arbitration or mediation to make me whole, then so be it. I'd rather not but the attorney I used with VW is still practicing.... I checked. If it's not fixed soon, I'll reach out to him.
The problem is, I did not play this right. Up until the current dealer, there were no shop orders created for the problem (That I know of). Just discussions, bleeding and test riding but I don't think there were any official service tickets. That may bite me in the a$$.
Although I did call HD direct and complain about the problem much earlier. That may help.
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Update....
Replaced the clutch and master cylinder.
This seems to have done the trick. I say seems because I did not have a lot of time in the saddle this weekend.
I still have a little clutch movement remaining when it is fully engaged. I said a little but remember that I had no clutch lever movement left before these replacements.
I was able to ride 2 up for a little while and I am satisfied at this point. If I were to tailor the clutch to my liking, I would still move the engagement point closer to the grip but it is not adjustable. It seemed to get better after a little riding. At first, I did not notice much difference. Could be that I just got used to it.
Something interesting though. Before the clutch replacement, the primary was getting noisy. A good deal of knocking and rattling coming from what sounded like the compensator. It is now quiet! Like it was when I first took delivery.
Should put a few hundred miles on it this weekend and will update then.
I want to thank everyone for their input and support. The clutch was dangerous and unmanageable. I only hope it stays fixed.
Eqcons,
If yours is as bad as mine was, keep looking for a dealer that will fight for you. I can actually feather the break AND clutch in slow tight turns. The clutch is no longer an on/off switch! May get a few more miles from the rear brakes now.
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Sounds like good news. I'll take mine to the dealer this week. I think.
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..........................................
grc,
If yours is as bad as mine was, keep looking for a dealer that will fight for you. I can actually feather the break AND clutch in slow tight turns. The clutch is no longer an on/off switch! May get a few more miles from the rear breaks now.
Mine has been fine for about ten years now. ;D It sucked big time when I first bought the bike, but I fixed that by thoroughly bleeding the system a couple times to get all the air out. Once the plates were broken in, and I started running ATF in the primary, I've been able to feather mine about the same as with a cable clutch. The problems with the older bikes was usually a release and engage point right at the grip, just the opposite of your problem. Usually bleeding the system completely, which takes time and patience, would solve most of the early model problems. Since then Harley has made changes to the master cylinders, and not for the better as best I can tell, and of course recently changed to the Assist & Slip clutch, which is a very poor and cheaply made version of a slipper clutch. Another change they should have put back on the shelf in the prototype stage.
Did the dealership replace both the clutch and the M/C at the same time? If so, I wish they had only done one thing at a time to help prove which component was the real problem. Considering all the abnormal wear of the clutch parts and the noise, I'm betting on that cheap A&S clutch.
Jerry
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They did replace both at the same time. Wish they could have separated them but this was my 3rd or 4th time in service and they wanted to get it all done at one time.
The M/C had already been rebuilt so I am assuming that it was the clutch also.
All I can say is that if it stays where it is now, I should be happy! That is a far cry from where I was with this clutch.
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Glad it is fixed now! How far out is the lever before you start feeling the engagement? I kept hearing it was about 90%. My clutch seems to still be fine. Hope it stays that way.
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Glad it is fixed now! How far out is the lever before you start feeling the engagement? I kept hearing it was about 90%. My clutch seems to still be fine. Hope it stays that way.
It starts to grab about at about 60%. Doesn't move the bike till about 70 but I still have some lever left when fully engaged, even 2 up which is where it was the most challenging. You are right, it started to move the bike at about 90% and acted more like an on/off switch than a clutch lever. Will not ride until this weekend but hope it stays where it is. I wouldn't complain if it moves closer to the grip but to stay where it is would be great. I will post after this weekend.
Glad to hear yours is still good!
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That is about the way mine is. It is a lot different from my other clutches but I can feather it. I am sure it will be fine this weekend and can't wait to hear about it!
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Hi All:
After nearly dropping my bike in a full lock lefty this afternoon, I decided to revisit this thread. I have been dealing with a "very late" engaging clutch since I bought my 14 Limited in 09/13.
Today, I got a little wonky, but I know my troubles were directly related to the lateness of the clutch engagement. I really took a hard look at it and it seems that it is even later than I am used to. Although that could be just the adrenaline talking! Nothing like almost dumping your bike in the employee parking lot with an audience to get you going... :vrolijk27:
Be that as it may, I know for a fact that not all the Limited clutches work this way. I have ridden my brother's 103 and it engages so much earlier and "snappier" that his bike feels like it has more power.
At any rate, I am going in for the 30 K next week and will insist that the dealer addresses the issue.
Yes, all recalls have been done. I will take the suggestions of a good bleed and return valve inspection to the service manager and see what happens.
Again, what a great resource this board is and thank to all who have posted here.
Regards,
Mark
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Hi All:
After nearly dropping my bike in a full lock lefty this afternoon, I decided to revisit this thread. I have been dealing with a "very late" engaging clutch since I bought my 14 Limited in 09/13.
Today, I got a little wonky, but I know my troubles were directly related to the lateness of the clutch engagement. I really took a hard look at it and it seems that it is even later than I am used to. Although that could be just the adrenaline talking! Nothing like almost dumping your bike in the employee parking lot with an audience to get you going... :vrolijk27:
Be that as it may, I know for a fact that not all the Limited clutches work this way. I have ridden my brother's 103 and it engages so much earlier and "snappier" that his bike feels like it has more power.
At any rate, I am going in for the 30 K next week and will insist that the dealer addresses the issue.
Yes, all recalls have been done. I will take the suggestions of a good bleed and return valve inspection to the service manager and see what happens.
Again, what a great resource this board is and thank to all who have posted here.
Regards,
Mark
Yes, I dropped mine for the same reason, Mark. Having brought it to my (excellent) dealer's attention, first they bled it - no difference of course - then they asked the MoCo. Their suggestion is to change the clutch lever. (!) I asked if there's a revised part, but apparently not, so I think we can guess how much difference that will make. However, we have to work through what they say.
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Howdy Y'all...my first post here. {'14 CVO Road King} One thing I didn't see mentioned in this thread is changing the clutch lever. It took me awhile to get used to the hydraulic clutch, but I didn't like where the clutch engaged. I was having a problem with feathering the clutch in tight right hand slow turns(I have medium sized hands). I changed the OM lever to an adjustable Oberon lever and have been happy ever since.
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Howdy Y'all...my first post here. {'14 CVO Road King} One thing I didn't see mentioned in this thread is changing the clutch lever. It took me awhile to get used to the hydraulic clutch, but I didn't like where the clutch engaged. I was having a problem with feathering the clutch in tight right hand slow turns(I have medium sized hands). I changed the OM lever to an adjustable Oberon lever and have been happy ever since.
Hi Sadsack,
Interesting levers - but seriously expensive and..... no chrome. :o
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I am sure everyone received the letter about the extended warranty from HD due to the clutch problems. Out to four years.
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I am sure everyone received the letter about the extended warranty from HD due to the clutch problems. Out to four years.
Not here in the UK (and I wouldn't expect it here, given past performance). Care to share the detail?
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The letter stated that due to all the hydraulic clutch issues with the 2014 and 2015s, HD will extend the two year warranty to four years and it is transferable to the next owner. This was all to make customers happy and know HD is doing everything they can. I am sure you will receive this letter shortly as well.
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The letter stated that due to all the hydraulic clutch issues with the 2014 and 2015s, HD will extend the two year warranty to four years and it is transferable to the next owner. This was all to make customers happy and know HD is doing everything they can. I am sure you will receive this letter shortly as well.
I bet we don't!
Is that the warranty for the whole bike, or just the clutch (and if just the clutch, the whole shooting match?)
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Just for the clutch, not the whole bike. The last time I remember them doing something like this was back in 2000/2001 or thereabouts on the early Twin Cam outer cam bearings. I kept the letter for my '99 Dyna for many years but I think I finally threw it out when momma insisted we purge the filing cabinets before they collapsed. I hate to throw away old reference material, even if I no longer own whatever it was it pertained to.
I'd still like to see a copy of the actual letter if someone would care to scan and post it. Since the recalls involve the hydraulics and not things like the actual clutch plates, hub, etc., I would imagine what they are talking about is just the hydraulic part of the system. Oh, and btw, this is a true extended warranty, unlike the service contracts everyone seems to love to call an extended warranty even though they aren't.
Jerry
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Eqcons,
The clutch lever is the only thing left that has not been inspected or changed on my bike. Give it a shot!
Well, it's been a while since I had work completed on my clutch issue.
1) Replaced the Master Cylinder
2) Replaced the clutch pack
3) Measured the throw of the slave (or secondary) cylinder
At first, mine was back to the way it was when I purchased the bike. Now with a few more K on it, the clutch engages further out and is not as linear.
Bear with me as this may be a little hard to explain in writing.
A couple of things I noticed:
1) Before the replacement parts and with the clutch fully engaged (lever all the way out) when I began to pull the clutch to change gear, it felt like the clutch system was binding. Not smooth at the beginning of the pull to disengage the clutch. Felt a little chunky. This went away after the master cylinder and clutch pack was replaced and now it is back. I did not notice this when the bike was new. Then after a few K, I did notice it. When the parts were replaced, this "binding" went away. Now it's back.
2) When the bike was new, I did not feel the clunk into gear in the clutch lever (1st to 2nd and 3rd, etc). After a few K, I did. Then when the parts were replaced, I was not able to feel the shift in the lever. After a few K, I can again. Don't get me wrong, I feel it in the whole bike but more so in the lever itself.
Because the changes to the clutch are gradual, the main reason I noticed these two things is that it has happened twice on this bike. And, of course, I am paying close attention to the clutch. Otherwise I will drop it in a tight turn! (That would make twice)
I wonder if the excessive wear reported on the original clutch was due to binding in the cage. (not the clutch itself, but there was excessive wear at the points that the clutch pack rides in the cage). Sorry to all of you techs if I described that wrong.
Thanks for everyone's input.
Eqcons, there is something not right with our bikes. Other hydraulic bikes feel nothing like mine.
Question: Does yours once in a while catch you off guard? I mean, engage in a location that is not in the "normal" position for your bike? Mine does and it shocks the crap out of me each time. The bike launches and I have to pull the clutch back in and start over. Only once in a while though. Wondering if it's me or not.
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Just for the clutch, not the whole bike. The last time I remember them doing something like this was back in 2000/2001 or thereabouts on the early Twin Cam outer cam bearings. I kept the letter for my '99 Dyna for many years but I think I finally threw it out when momma insisted we purge the filing cabinets before they collapsed. I hate to throw away old reference material, even if I no longer own whatever it was it pertained to.
I'd still like to see a copy of the actual letter if someone would care to scan and post it. Since the recalls involve the hydraulics and not things like the actual clutch plates, hub, etc., I would imagine what they are talking about is just the hydraulic part of the system. Oh, and btw, this is a true extended warranty, unlike the service contracts everyone seems to love to call an extended warranty even though they aren't.
Jerry
Jerry,
I had other issues last night and did not have time to scan the letter. I will do it tonight.
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Eqcons,
The clutch lever is the only thing left that has not been inspected or changed on my bike. Give it a shot!
Well, it's been a while since I had work completed on my clutch issue.
1) Replaced the Master Cylinder
2) Replaced the clutch pack
3) Measured the throw of the slave (or secondary) cylinder
At first, mine was back to the way it was when I purchased the bike. Now with a few more K on it, the clutch engages further out and is not as linear.
Bear with me as this may be a little hard to explain in writing.
A couple of things I noticed:
1) Before the replacement parts and with the clutch fully engaged (lever all the way out) when I began to pull the clutch to change gear, it felt like the clutch system was binding. Not smooth at the beginning of the pull to disengage the clutch. Felt a little chunky. This went away after the master cylinder and clutch pack was replaced and now it is back. I did not notice this when the bike was new. Then after a few K, I did notice it. When the parts were replaced, this "binding" went away. Now it's back.
2) When the bike was new, I did not feel the clunk into gear in the clutch lever (1st to 2nd and 3rd, etc). After a few K, I did. Then when the parts were replaced, I was not able to feel the shift in the lever. After a few K, I can again. Don't get me wrong, I feel it in the whole bike but more so in the lever itself.
Because the changes to the clutch are gradual, the main reason I noticed these two things is that it has happened twice on this bike. And, of course, I am paying close attention to the clutch. Otherwise I will drop it in a tight turn! (That would make twice)
I wonder if the excessive wear reported on the original clutch was due to binding in the cage. (not the clutch itself, but there was excessive wear at the points that the clutch pack rides in the cage). Sorry to all of you techs if I described that wrong.
Thanks for everyone's input.
Eqcons, there is something not right with our bikes. Other hydraulic bikes feel nothing like mine.
Question: Does yours once in a while catch you off guard? I mean, engage in a location that is not in the "normal" position for your bike? Mine does and it shocks the crap out of me each time. The bike launches and I have to pull the clutch back in and start over. Only once in a while though. Wondering if it's me or not.
Hi FB. Yes, I've no option but to go with the MoCo's route, so lever first.
I felt the gearchange through the lever from day 1 on my bike. This being my 4th CVO with a hydraulic clutch, I knew this was new, and remarked specifically about it in the dealers. Everybody looked puzzled.
Agreed - something is not right, Dunno what though, and yes, other hydraulic ones feel nothing like mine either (I have the luxury of having a friend keep his '14 FLHTK beside mine in my garage, so comparison is easy. Every time he gets on mine he is shocked by the clutch. My previous hydraulic clutch bikes (2005 FLHTCUSE, 2007 CUSE2, 2009 CUSE4) have not been anything like this.
I can't say I've noticed mine doing that - operating in an unusual position, BUT - I do get the feeling that occasionally, with the lever pulled fully in, the clutch is dragging and wants - slightly - to make the bike creep. Ever noticed that?
Jim
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Eqcons,
Bike creep:
Yes. But I only notice this when the trans oil is cold. Can't say I have noticed it after it is warmed up.
When I told the techs that I could feel the trans shifting in the lever, I got deer in the headlights also. Very puzzled look.
Can anyone else feel the bike shifting (while in motion...1st to 2nd and so on) in the clutch lever? This could be isolated to our clutch problem. No such luck...I'm sure.
It is the first hydraulic bike I've noticed this on. I will make it a point to look for this when I ride another one. May have a chance to ride my friends this weekend. I just did not think to pay attention to this while testing the clutch on other bikes. I was looking for how far out the clutch engaged at the time.
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Eqcons,
Bike creep:
Yes. But I only notice this when the trans oil is cold. Can't say I have noticed it after it is warmed up.
When I told the techs that I could feel the trans shifting in the lever, I got deer in the headlights also. Very puzzled look.
Can anyone else feel the bike shifting (while in motion...1st to 2nd and so on) in the clutch lever? This could be isolated to our clutch problem. No such luck...I'm sure.
It is the first hydraulic bike I've noticed this on. I will make it a point to look for this when I ride another one. May have a chance to ride my friends this weekend. I just did not think to pay attention to this while testing the clutch on other bikes. I was looking for how far out the clutch engaged at the time.
Try draining 5 to 8 oz of primary fluid and see if your clutch creep stops... If I fill my primary with the quantity specified in the service manual, I get clutch creep. If I run about 8 oz. low, it's fine. Doesn't matter what fluid I run, the result is the same...
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:nixweiss:
My current ride is a 2014 SGS. Along with my prior '09 SE Ultra, it's my second bike with the hydraulic clutch setup. No problems with either one. :drink:
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Try draining 5 to 8 oz of primary fluid and see if your clutch creep stops... If I fill my primary with the quantity specified in the service manual, I get clutch creep. If I run about 8 oz. low, it's fine. Doesn't matter what fluid I run, the result is the same...
.... and if you're absolutely certain the primary fluid volume was "fine" at some previous time when it was working correctly and you know you've never seen a leak remember which side gains fluid more commonly when the tranny mainshaft seal leaks. That's the one leak that doesn't come out on the ground but goes from one cavity to another.
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Jerry and all, This is the letter.
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Jerry and all, This is the letter.
Interesting... Hard to work out exactly which components they mean; "hydraulic clutch engagement system" is a bit vague......
Jim
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Eqcons,
Bike creep:
Yes. But I only notice this when the trans oil is cold. Can't say I have noticed it after it is warmed up.
When I told the techs that I could feel the trans shifting in the lever, I got deer in the headlights also. Very puzzled look.
Can anyone else feel the bike shifting (while in motion...1st to 2nd and so on) in the clutch lever? This could be isolated to our clutch problem. No such luck...I'm sure.
It is the first hydraulic bike I've noticed this on. I will make it a point to look for this when I ride another one. May have a chance to ride my friends this weekend. I just did not think to pay attention to this while testing the clutch on other bikes. I was looking for how far out the clutch engaged at the time.
Yes, feeling the shift through the lever may well be the key. It doesn't happen on my friend's FLHTK, but I noticed it right away, and as you say, as soon as I mentioned it to the dealer - there were several dealer staff round about - I got the same puzzled look as you did,
So, we need to know - who else feels it?
Jim
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Yes, feeling the shift through the lever may well be the key. It doesn't happen on my friend's FLHTK, but I noticed it right away, and as you say, as soon as I mentioned it to the dealer - there were several dealer staff round about - I got the same puzzled look as you did,
So, we need to know - who else feels it?
Jim
Please chime in if you can (or can't) feel the trans shift in the clutch lever. To clarify, not from N to 1st but from 1st to 2nd, 2nd to 3rd and so on. This may help HD diagnose what is wrong with our clutch systems.
Jim, since we can feel the shifting in the clutch lever, the clutch has to be kicking back into the slave and then the primary. I thought this to be odd but then I just got used to it.
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I thought this to be odd but then I just got used to it.
Ditto, FB.
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I do not feel the shift in the lever. I also don't seem to have the issue as bad as others. I complained about the clutch at first (this was last year in March) and I was told that the difference is because of the hydraulic clutch. I can feather the clutch (much more touchy than before) but overall it is fine. I ride almost every day and go through a lot of tight turns navigating through my parking deck everyday.
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I just picked my bike up from 30k service last night. Service tech agreed that the engage point for the clutch was too far out but stipulated that they do vary a bit by bike and there is little to be done about it. That being said, he drained and bled the system which made some difference. It's not a lot, but noticeable to me after being used to the late engage point. Now it is closer to 75-80%.
The tech said that he banged on the clutch a little shifting during the test ride to check for slippage. We agree that there is no slipping, just a late engage.
No big news, just wanted to post an update. BTW sunny and upper 80s F for the weekend. Now is when we get the pay-off for dealing with the 105 degree days over the summer!
Cheers everyone. :drink:
M
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AMEDD_SFC,
Do you feel the clutch shift (1st to 2nd, 2nd to 3rd, etc) in the clutch lever itself?
Eqcons and I can but others that do not have the late clutch release cannot.
I wonder if that is a related symptom of the late engage.
Thanks
John
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AMEDD_SFC,
Do you feel the clutch shift (1st to 2nd, 2nd to 3rd, etc) in the clutch lever itself?
Eqcons and I can but others that do not have the late clutch release cannot.
I wonder if that is a related symptom of the late engage.
Thanks
John
Took the words right out of my keyboard, John!
Jim
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AMEDD_SFC,
Do you feel the clutch shift (1st to 2nd, 2nd to 3rd, etc) in the clutch lever itself?
Eqcons and I can but others that do not have the late clutch release cannot.
I wonder if that is a related symptom of the late engage.
Thanks
John
Feels smooth, it just doesn't start catching until the lever is extended near the end of its travel.
I have ridden a limited (103) and the clutch starts to grab real close to the hand grip. I seems to give it a more positive feeling.
M
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Had HD new style clutch pack installed in my SE limited. All the clutch action took place at the far end of the travel. Hated it and thought it was unsafe. Had the put my old discs back in. Rode for another 20k on the ones until I traded it in. I called the factory but no help from them. Must be a tolerance stack up between all the places they source their crap from
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Pan1
When riding two up, I have no lever left when the clutch is fully engaged. Well ..... maybe a hair but very, very little.
This is after replacing the master cylinder and clutch pack.
I have no idea what could be different on mine and to me, it is not safe.
I keep waiting for the clutch to give out or not fully engage.
Although, I have to say, that has not happened.
Wait a minute, I spent that much on a CVO and I am waiting for its clutch to fail?????
To make me a happy customer, Harley needs to fix the clutch. Can't seem to get there though. Wish there were more with this issue, then maybe we could get something done. With only a few of us, I do not see any light at the end of the tunnel.
I like the Harley network of dealers but attention to quality control and making sure the customer is satisfied ....... not so much.
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The system is fixed meaning that it goes back to clutch stack height. If the stack is short ( manufactures tolerances ) then it takes longer to engage.. Drop in a Barnett + 1 clutch pack it will be the easiest solution. I have delt with it and you are dealing with mass produced parts.. :nixweiss: I agree you should not have to deal with it. But the clutch is a wear item and HD will not warranty.. We fought to get one that had the issue with master that burned up and they where not happy about covering it ..
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I wonder about getting a small amount machined off the roller in the clutch lever......
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GMR-PERFORMANCE,
Thank you for your post!
You're right, I shouldn't have to deal with it .... so I'll fix it .......
Any guidance on what I should order?
If I go +1, should I replace the spring with a heavier one? What about the clutch retaining ring?
Looks like Barnett has several different options.
Any experienced help will be greatly appreciated. I ride 2 up 50% of the time. I will wear the stock clutch out in no time and I just don't want to ride it the way it is any longer.
If this fixes the problem, I'll gladly pay. Love the bike, hate the clutch!
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Is that this kit? http://www.amazon.com/Barnett-Clutch-Plate-Kit-303-30-10043/dp/B00DTCNQ2A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1450720414&sr=8-1&keywords=303-30-10043
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Eqcons,
I believe it is. I just couldn't verify that it was +1.
Looks like it is but I am not positive. Not sure how many are stock.
Thanks for the link!
Are there other things I should do while in there to save time and money?
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Eqcons,
I believe it is. I just couldn't verify that it was +1.
Looks like it is but I am not positive. Not sure how many are stock.
Thanks for the link!
Are there other things I should do while in there to save time and money?
If that's the kit, I'd just do that to see if it solves the problem. If you do anything else at the same time, you won't know which was the cure (assuming this IS the cure). If it fixes it for you, I'm in for one of these as well, so please go ahead and be the tester! :apple:
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Just call me at the shop easier to explain it over the phone.
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Should change my forum name to "Guinea Pig" :2vrolijk_21:
I have a little more study to do. There seem to be several different options and not sure which to try. I'll figure it out and give it a shot after the new year.
Up for just about anything at this point.
One thing seems certain, the stock clutch is not going to last riding 2 up as much as I do. The first one was in bad shape after 7000 miles. I'll have to do something.
It may be a little while but I will post back what I find.
Thanks for your help GMR-PERFORMANCE!
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Sure thing . Glad I was able to help ..
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Looking forward to hearing your continuing saga, FB. Just like you, I love my bike - best one I've ever had - but struggling to live with that clutch!
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I've been following along with this topic for a while and I'm also very interested in what you folks figure out. My situation is a little different in that my bike is not a Rushmore model which is the clutch that it seems you people are having issues with. I recently did some major upgrades to my 2011 SESG. (113 kit and such) While it was apart I replaced the clutch with the SE friction disc set (part # 37980-10) and installed the SE variable pressure clutch kit (part # 37000121). I'm really happy with the results of my build thanks to all the help I received from this site, especially Steve at GMR. Anyway, MY clutch engagement point like yours is about 90% out now with barely pulling it in at all to release it. That really sucks. It affects your self confidence taking off in traffic and so on. My bike had close to 30,000 miles on it with the original clutch which was still working well but obviously showing some wear. When, after I tried to suck it up and get use to it, I took it back to my tech. His answer was the typical HD answer that there was nothing wrong with the parts OR the installation. He did offer to put my old clutch back in at no labor charge, just the cost of fluid and a gasket to make me happy stating that "a lot of the new bikes have a similar issue and Harley has no fix for it other than verifying that the master cylinder and all parts are working properly.
SO anyway, obviously I am VERY interested in whatever The FIX is for this issue.
Thanks in advance for "the answer" to our issue!
Kelly
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Hi Rayson56,
It really does suck, doesn't it!
When it's that far out, it does changes your confidence level. It's like learning the clutch all over again. I can deal with different engagement points on different bikes but not to the extreme mine is. Let my son ride it, he won't ride it again until it's "fixed". Even with my warnings, he damn near dropped it and it scared him.
I will be ordering the clutch pack on January 4th, Barnett is closed until then. Otherwise I would have ordered it already.
"Eqcons" was able to find the kit for me on Amazon but just want to call Barnett to make sure before I purchase.
The Saturday after I receive the pack, I will install it. Ohio weather may not allow for a test ride but as soon as I can report back, I will.
I have worked on cars but this will be my first wrenching on a bike clutch. At least I won't have to lay under my bike, on the concrete floor, to work on the trans!
Any words of wisdom and experience are welcome.
John
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I've also been following this saga. A riding buddy switched his '11 FLTRUSE from the stock clutch to the Barnett Scorpion at about 34,000 miles. His clutch lever engagement went from a "normal" point (about half-way out) to the 90% point as described in this thread. He bled the clutch completely, but it hasn't changed the engagement point. Anybody know a fix?
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Well...good luck. Mine went from about 70% (normal for late model hydraulic) to roughly 90%. Not acceptable. Definately need THE FIX if it's available. I'll be watching.
Merry Christmas everyone!!!
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Para Bellum,
Not yet.
Found the +1 part number but Barnett does not list it for my model under their "Find Products For Your Bike". Should know more on the 4th.
Glad you found this thread and I hope the +1 fixes my problem so others can get relief.
By the way ..... love the name!
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FB,
Thanks for that. Will follow this thread; looks like several people having this problem. Good luck.
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I read this whole saga from top to bottom and a few options came to mind that weren't mentioned. The first two are a little on the pricey side and not sure if the third one is even possible, but maybe worth looking into.
1) Convert back to a cable and remove all hydraulics period. Just think ... no more fluid to change, bleed and no master or slave cyl. to ever go bad. Cables have done fine over the years, just a little periodic adjustment now and then, easily lubed with a cable luber and maybe replacement once in a blue moon if you would happen to see it starting to fray. This would definitely be the most involved option in parts and labor.
2) Remember those old Briggs & Stratton mini-bikes with no clutch? ... just gas it and go! You can do the same thing to your big twin by dropping in a Rekluse Auto Clutch which is basically the same thing .... a centrifugal clutch that works by engine speed. You wouldn't have to worry where the lever starts to engage then because the only thing you would need it for is to change gears. Slow u-turns would be a breeze with no hand on the clutch at all, no fear of stalling, just go easy with the throttle.
3) This is my favorite option and one I feel HD should've done in the first place (if possible). Keep all the hydraulics they way they are and just change the pressure plate to the old style from the cable system with the adjuster and lock nut so you COULD adjust your free-play. After all the complaints about where the lever engages I'm surprised the aftermarket hasn't come up with a drop-in piece like this. Just think ... 5 torx screws, pull the derby cover, adjust, replace and you're done ... just like my old '11 RGU with a cable. I'm not even sure if an adjuster would work with hydraulic actuation? I mean whatever slack you introduce to the pushrod, wouldn't it just be taken up the next time you squeeze the lever sort of like pumping up calipers after you replace pads? I don't know, it was just a thought.
4) Someone mentioned the pricey adjustable lever that doesn't come in chrome ... get one of those and send it out to get plated.
Mine works ok ... engages a little later than I really like, but not troublesome and I can feather it without that on/off feeling. There has to be a happy medium ... if it grabs too soon then the plates are dragging which would make it hard to find neutral and really make it clunk bad going back into 1st. If it grabs too late then it may slip, mine doesn't slip and it fully disengages even when cold so I guess that's as good as it gets. Good luck and keep us posted what your fix is.
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Using the old style clutch release plate wouldn't help, since the hydraulics would remove any play in the release rod that you introduce with the adjustment, up to the limits of the travel of the actuator of course.
Using an adjustable lever to move the release and engage point closer to the grip, assuming you could find one designed to work with your hydraulic master cylinder, just introduces a different problem. That would be insufficient travel to completely release the clutch. So it would be a fine line between moving the engagement point closer to the grip and having the clutch release completely.
Harley has obviously changed something, since the older models had the opposite problem with the engagement point too close to the grip, especially when any air was in the system. The obvious difference is the A&S clutch of course, but there also might be a difference in the master cylinder. Lever "free play" is determined by the location of the bleed hole between the reservoir and piston, with no real pressure developed until the piston moves far enough to block the hole. The reason I wonder about that is the change in the specs Harley published for minimum release rod travel. The older bikes had a spec of .065", the newer bikes have a spec of .080". Since the piston sizes of the actuator and master cylinder didn't change, the travel should have remained the same. If someone were to install an earlier model M/C on a bike exhibiting this 90% problem, I wonder if that alone might make a difference?
In theory at least, the stack height of the actual clutch should only cause this problem IF the actuator was reaching it's physical limits of travel. If the system is designed correctly, which of course is a big IF, those limits should not be reached during normal operation. So the next question in my mind is, what could the change to the A&S setup have possibly contributed to this situation?
Just some rambling thoughts that have been rattling around in my noggin for some time now. Getting to the real root cause is going to take some serious digging by some people with a lot more access to design details as well as all the parts. That would normally be something the manufacturer would be best equipped to handle, but until the MoCo admits there is a problem and then decides to find and fix the cause(s), odds are it won't be fixed. So we are once again back to the old way of doing things; let the customers throw money at the problem hoping to find a fix on their own. Some things at H-D never really change.
Jerry
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My 15 just started doing this too. The clutch "grabs" at 95% full extended lever with zero "friction zone". Bike has 2500 miles. My 6th bike, 4th HD, 3rd with hyd-clutch, the others worked great.
Please give an update on what the issue was.
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Barnett does not make a +1 for my 15 hydraulic system and suggested that I remove the damper spring and the flat ring.
They said that they had complaints about one of their clutch packs causing the lever to engage too far out and this was the fix to correct the problem.
If I understood correctly, he said it would put more free play in the pack.
Thoughts anyone?
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Barnett does not make a +1 for my 15 hydraulic system and suggested that I remove the damper spring and the flat ring.
They said that they had complaints about one of their clutch packs causing the lever to engage too far out and this was the fix to correct the problem.
If I understood correctly, he said it would put more free play in the pack.
Thoughts anyone?
Sounds like it's well worth a try, FB!
Yesterday I had a look at the Rekluse automatic clutch that was suggested earlier in the thread. I have to say it looks every bit the perfect solution, other than the price.
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Barnett does not make a +1 for my 15 hydraulic system and suggested that I remove the damper spring and the flat ring.
They said that they had complaints about one of their clutch packs causing the lever to engage too far out and this was the fix to correct the problem.
If I understood correctly, he said it would put more free play in the pack.
Thoughts anyone?
Once again, if we assume the hydraulics are working as they are designed to, any "free play" introduced to the pack would be eliminated automatically UNLESS the system is so far out of whack that the slave cylinder (actuator) is bottomed out and cannot self correct. And if that is the case, there is definitely something wrong in Harley's tolerances and/or design.
I wasn't impressed with the cheap crap design of the A&S in the first place, and after hearing about all the various problems since it was introduced I'm pretty sure if I owned one of the affected bikes I'd remove the A&S crap and go back to the old design.
JMHO - Jerry
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That suddenly makes a lot of sense, Jerry! I've just realised that the difference between the '14 models that I've tried and were fine, the previous CVO hydraulic clutches I've had, and my current one which, as with others here, is awful, is that we have the A&S clutch! 10-1 that's the candidate for the problem.
Jim
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Hey John just want to jump in for a second. I have an 09 SERG so not the same exact clutch but I chased the exact same problem last year on mine for about 4 months before I finally fixed it. Moisture is a big issue on these systems not so much air. Air is pretty easy to find and resolve. Lot of advise from folks trying to help and the fluid level in this system is very critical to a seamless operation. After changing the fluid and flushing the system twice and double checking the level it was better but when the bike got hotter it got worse. So I went to see a master mech down here that is not only good but listens well enough to actually hear what you are telling him. I think what happens a lot with those of us who know just enough to be dangerous if we feel something is wrong based on another experience and the wrench turner just doesn't get it. ( Hey I ride and work on 20 bikes a week. They are all different, but they are ok). SO I told Jodi what was going on, what it felt like and why I didn't like it and made him ride it until he agreed that something wasn't right. If they don't feel anything is amiss they will not get it fixed. In other words, try again. Anyway my problem we found out was internal with the clutch spring plate thingy out of specs. So we replaced the entire clutch with screaming eagle race parts and it works great. Good luck with the search.
BigLew
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Anyway my problem we found out was internal with the clutch spring plate thingy out of specs. So we replaced the entire clutch with screaming eagle race parts and it works great.
BigLew, thanks for chiming in!
Barnett also said that if I want to "FIX" the problem, dump the A&S and replace with the Scorpion Clutch - 2011-16 Big Twins - Hydraulic Part# 608-30-30011.
A local shop had suggested that I do this too .... That's 2 now!
They both told me it's easy, "Just press out the bearing and press it into the Scorpion".
Since I did not get a hydraulic press for Christmas :-\, I may not be able to do this one on my own.
I like to do business with local shops so I am getting pricing for parts and labor now.
Will update as things progress.
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OK, Just got finished screwing around with mine. Read about the A&S today and how it works. Fluid level was on the low side. I turned the bars so the master cylinder was level and tapped on it and the line, then slowly pumped it for a min, then turned it the other way and pumped it some more, then started the bike and did about 30 slow roll starts, then I took it out and did a few "aggressive" starts and "quickly" ran thru the gears. Back to slooowww rolls until I thought I could smell the clutch. Then I took it for a twisty 20 mile loop I have near me. From red lights and stop signs it felt way better than last week (I was ready to scrap the damn thing on Friday). So after my loop I hit a parking lot and did some low speed 360s, 90 deg take offs, and figure 8s, It really felt better. I'm not sure if there was air in the line or what, but it feels 100% better than it did and is starting to engage closer to center now. Maybe there was debris in the return or the plates needed to seat, IDK. I really did not do anything but it feels more like my other bikes. :jalapeno: If it changes back to the first 90% again Ill get the dealer to check it out.
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Hope that is the "fix".
BigLew
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Hope that is the "fix".
BigLew
Don't think so, given the amount of work done on Fullbagger's bike so far.... :(
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Damper will give MORE room before it makes contact and most likely will also induce a shudder when you take off. Yes the hyd system should be correct however you get back to stack set up with the clutch.
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Update. Nothing earth shattering though!
Talked to another dealer. They want a shot a "fixing" it before I purchase the Scorpion Clutch. I plan to drop it off tomorrow. I would like to have an OEM fix if possible. I am not optimistic but I think it is worth a try. It's winter and riding is a bit limited this time of year anyway.
GMR-PERFORMANCE,
If they cannot fix it or they do not even agree that there is a problem, do you think the "Scorpion Clutch - 2011-16 Big Twins - Hydraulic Part# 608-30-30011" could be the answer? Or, is it possible that the hydraulic system will simply compensate for the difference and end up right back where it is. I know there are no guarantees but an experienced opinion is always helpful.
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We have used that and the bandit as well.. Even the + one kit would be better.. If the clutch does not slip then there is nothing wrong.. You may not like where it lets out but that is what you have. Not that I am taking sides just pointing out ,..to you that HD built a bike it works. Maybe get a new lever with a adjustable pivot point and have it " feel" better and go from there. :nixweiss: There are a few that are being made now.
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I agree with GM, don't even really know what the issue is so I'm sure throwing more money with a new clutch will solve anything. Once again I can tell you from experience that fluid level is critical in your bike. I would spend a little time and play with that. If that doesn't fix it is most likely internal with the clutch pak and maybe Harley should replace it all. This is not my opinion it is exactly what happened to mine.
BigLew
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GMR-PERFORMANCE,
Thanks again.
I hear you and technically you're right.....it works. It's not right in my opinion but it works.
BigLew,
Thanks for the input. I will see what the next dealer says and I will have a fluid level discussion with them when I drop it off.
I would love to close this thread!
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Bet you would, as the boys would say "been there done that". I know its a personal preference thing and the hydro system is a little different from bike to bike but I believe you are on the right path by finding someone who will listen and work with you. Good luck!
BigLew
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Well lets take a look at a Hydro system in cars as all most all of them are hyrdo now. SO drive a few and you will see that they are all over the place as far as engagement goes. GM sure is heck is not going to warranty parts due to operator issue on where it engages. Mass produced parts, in the end the clutch works does not slip so really that falls back on the owner to pay to correct the issue that he feels is an issue. Now if the clutch slipped or bucked, shuddered etc then well maybe but its a wear item and it is clearly outlined that is not something they will warranty..
I bet if you took a few packs measured them , you could put together a taller stack and it would solve the problem.. Building high performance auto trans that is how its done. A bunch of steels that you mic and set up. You look for that tallest stack you can get into the hub.
Now if HD would take a look at the import bikes you see that many comes with adjustable levers ... HA HA do you think this is the first time this has come up. Simple fix alter the lever to allow the owner to find the place he likes it. Nothig has changed other than the hand posting though .. Its a feel thing nothing more.
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My brother in law bought a 2015 Tri-Glide last August. He's basically a new rider. He was horrible on the clutch, making me cringe. At 500 miles he blew up the clutch, grenaded. I told him his roll of was really bad. Dealer replaced everything under warranty. 800 mile later, same thing. They finally agreed to cover it when he mentioned lemon law.
If you know what I went through with the 2007 110 issues, i would never come out and defend the MOCO, but in his case I told him he was blowing up the clutch.
Meanwhile, I did like the hydraulic clutch on the 2007 FLHRES3. These Rushmore clutches are different as far as the parts, the slave cylinder trapdoor is different as is the master.
Did the MOCO take a system that worked on the CVO line for many years (except for leaks) and then mass produce it cheaply and require three recalls?
By the way, I totally agree that this clutch on the 2014 street Glide is way too on /off and not very forgiving.
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Your are right, it's a feel thing. It feels like $#!%.
To "fix" it, I'm willing to pay. Problem is, I don't want to throw time and money at the wrong fix.
As suggested, "lets take a look at a Hydro system in cars". If you bought a new car and the clutch had no peddle left when fully engaged, would that be OK? If that same clutch was more like an on/off switch, would that be OK? If that same clutch was shot at 7000 miles, would that be OK?
Just because it's mass produced, doesn't mean it should just be accepted "as-is" and you have to live with it.
Wow. I feel better now!
Update: My bike is in the shop. A second local dealer is looking at the clutch. If nothing is found "wrong", I suppose I'll replace the clutch with what I mentioned in a previous post. There is no Barnett +1 for my bike. I only wish I could find a definitive answer to, "WILL THIS FIX THE FEEL"?
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Part# 303-30-10043 is the kit we use. 9 plates for the A&S maybe I got confused as I saw the other bike posted. That is my mistake, We have used that kit and the springs it worked fine however the pull was heavier. The SDR unit has been something works great and if the clutch pack is worn we use the kit above and no spring unless needed . Again for the A&S set up. or just swap the entire unit out for something else .
And I never said you had to be happy with it but , sorry you bought a HD , and the quality control and things being built right are not what they sell today. If your bike and lets say 100 others have that issue , its not an issue from a manufacturing stand point today.. Not ok with it just what I see doing this for a living,. and is your clutch shot at 7000 miles ?? Joe vibes pack was burnt and he never knew it it still worked , Dont get mad at me for pointing out what goes on today.. as for the cars thats a good one , yea take it back to the dealer see how that goes been there and done that.. I bought several new clutches and did the work myself . , Wifes M3 BMW was the same way ( way up on top ) , my dodge truck ( right off the floor and fact dealer told me to install a thinner matt !!) .. my 62 chevy truck with a tremec TKO 600 hyd set up ( complete kit with a huge price tag ) .. I pulled that out as it never worked right and went with a 4l80E.. Trust me I am not sympathetic to your issue.
I hope that they just install a complete new pack ( measure the old one vs the new one) and see how that does for you. at this point you could have bought the parts and done it and not spent the time and effort of going back and forth to the dealer. That is what kills me , silly things that in the end are not that costly yet we know the dealer should be correcting the issue
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GMR-PERFORMANCE,
Thanks for looking at this again.
You're right, that is not what they are selling.
Why would I be mad? You can't get mad at a messenger. Just a little friendly banter. Anyway, point taken, HD is not unique.
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All good , with text it seems that some can get upset when there is no malice intended. Hell I ask to see a dyno sheet on a build and get the evil PM messages HA HA so what can you say.. Just tying to be clear and not pee in anyone sand box if I can avoid it.
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I haven't looked lately to see if anyone is offering an adjustable clutch lever that is actually designed for the late model Harley hydraulic clutches, but when I did a year ago the only offerings were NOT designed for hydraulic clutch Harleys. If there are some on the market now, folks could try that approach to move the engagement point a little closer to the grip, as long as they make sure they are still getting full release of the clutch. However, that is still not going to change the complaints about the on or off abruptness. That is a function of the clutch itself, not the hydraulic system.
Jerry
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I have a related question. Why does the motorCo use this fluid clutch anyway? Is there some big advantage. This is my 3rd cvo with this system and I have never liked it. I heard it was intended to make the pull easier but I' not sure that's true.
BigLew
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:-\
Well, Making the pull easier is the obvious answer. While you may not recognize it, it must indeed be easier than what a cable only system would offer. Really, the same reason that Chrysler back in the '40's, was the first to go with "juice" brakes, and at some point, high horsepower engines requiring HD (Heavy duty) clutches needed the slave cylinder "juice" clutch set up. ::)
If you never experienced trying to stop a Model A Ford with mechanical brakes only going about 30 MPH downhill and you're pushing on the pedal as hard as you can....................you would quickly understand the advantages of hydraulics. :drink:
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I've been riding bikes for 50 years the CVO juice system doesn't pull any easier than the cable system. Its just stupid that there is no way to adjust the release point.
BigLew
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::)
Well, being as I'm currently 73, and rode my first Harley when I was about 17, I've got in more than 50 years of riding bikes too. My current SG Special, the clutch pull is easier to me than some previous cable operated ones I have had..........but I sure would sign up for an (adjustable) release point as a way to resolve these concerns.
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Touring bike owners know the advantages of having levers that can be easily adjusted for individual hand sizes: both comfort and saftey are enhanced.
We stock these levers in both chrome and black finishes, with multiple colors available for the adjustment knobs. Please note that the mounting brackets are available in black or clear finish; Chrome is available at extra charge.
they offer these for the new hyd set up and cable. cost is apporox 135 a lever made in UK and assm here in the US.
http://www.hogleverage.com/index.html
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Touring bike owners know the advantages of having levers that can be easily adjusted for individual hand sizes: both comfort and saftey are enhanced.
We stock these levers in both chrome and black finishes, with multiple colors available for the adjustment knobs. Please note that the mounting brackets are available in black or clear finish; Chrome is available at extra charge.
they offer these for the new hyd set up and cable. cost is apporox 135 a lever made in UK and assm here in the US.
http://www.hogleverage.com/index.html
I have a 09 CVO road glide and would love to be able to adjust the point where the clutch releases. It has always been with the lever almost completely released. Didn't see much on the website. Got any pics on a bike or info you can send me? mlewis@gbf-inc.com
BigLew
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Yes do you have more information. Also, if the lever currently engages at say 85% out where can the engagement point with this adjustable lever (e.g. 50% 70%) end up?
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Ok so lets say that HD is only company that has never offered a lever that you can move. where as Import bikes have had them for 20 years at least..
as for where it engages its like a clicker you move the lever so to you it may be 50% of 80% the rest of it stay the same you are making the lever closer to the bar or further away.. Its just a feel thing.
here is a Import vid you can see how the clicker lets you move the lever. So you move where the lever sits so you can make the lever come close to the bar and you feel its closer. This is not the lever just a video , as most import bikes run this style of lever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8S3RY_u-8c
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Don't see the video link??
BigLew
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Touring bike owners know the advantages of having levers that can be easily adjusted for individual hand sizes: both comfort and saftey are enhanced.
We stock these levers in both chrome and black finishes, with multiple colors available for the adjustment knobs. Please note that the mounting brackets are available in black or clear finish; Chrome is available at extra charge.
they offer these for the new hyd set up and cable. cost is apporox 135 a lever made in UK and assm here in the US.
http://www.hogleverage.com/index.html
Sweet!!! Had not seen these, was just wondering over the weekend why HD has never had this set-up. When I got my first beemer, adjustable levers seemed like no-brainer, every bike should have them. You sell these direct? I don't see an application for 04 touring with hydraulic clutch.
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Yes I have sold them to customers they are some what new. I would have to look into that as there was a pin size change on the master.
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Thanks for sharing the video. I see that the adjustment can be made on the fly. I think you also said they come in chrome. Since this will look different than the brake lever do you have a matching brake lever?
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Drag just released a never lever as well Called a PSR Adjustable levers .. Just saw this in the new products show case
http://www.psr-usa.com/lever-for-harley/439-journey-levers-for-harley.html
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Doesn't look like it is available for a hydraulic clutch earlier than 2014
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shows 14-15 and there is not change to the 16
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while both offerings list the '14 -'15 models with the Hydraulic clutch, neither one of them mentions the earlier years like my 11.5 CUSE6, for instance.
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Yes I have sold them to customers they are some what new. I would have to look into that as there was a pin size change on the master.
I think these are made by Oberon, they show a lever on their UK site for an '04 with hydraulic clutch. Oberon makes good stuff, had one of their slave cylinders on my KTM 950.
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Doesn't look like it is available for a hydraulic clutch earlier than 2014
Hey Pete I have one on the way for the 09. Let you guys know when I get it put on.
BigLew
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while both offerings list the '14 -'15 models with the Hydraulic clutch, neither one of them mentions the earlier years like my 11.5 CUSE6, for instance.
You can find them for the older models on Oberon's own website, but I didn't find them in chrome. They offer Black, Blue, Gold, Red, Silver and Titanium finish.
http://www.oberon-performance.co.uk/acatalog/Motorycle_Adjustable_levers.html
Jerry
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You can find them for the older models on Oberon's own website, but I didn't find them in chrome. They offer Black, Blue, Gold, Red, Silver and Titanium finish.
http://www.oberon-performance.co.uk/acatalog/Motorycle_Adjustable_levers.html
Jerry
I saw that they listed the '04 - '06 with the hydraulic setup but didn't see any listing for the '10 -'13 model year CVO's. I sent them a request for fitment information and they in turn asked me for some clear photos of my existing levers and mounts so that they could advise me which of their levers would be correct.
Unfortunately for me my bike is at the dealership right now for an unrelated repair. As soon as I get the bike back, or as soon as I can get to the dealer to take the photos I'll do as they requested.
I may find out that the levers listed for another model will fit.
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Update: My bike is in the shop. A second local dealer is looking at the clutch. If nothing is found "wrong", I suppose I'll replace the clutch with what I mentioned in a previous post. There is no Barnett +1 for my bike. I only wish I could find a definitive answer to, "WILL THIS FIX THE FEEL"?
Any update, FB?
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Drag just released a never lever as well Called a PSR Adjustable levers .. Just saw this in the new products show case
http://www.psr-usa.com/lever-for-harley/439-journey-levers-for-harley.html
For those interested in these adjustable levers for pre-2014 hydraulic clutch setups, was advised by this company they are working on what they refer to as their "CVO" levers and should introduce them in a couple of months.
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The trouble with these adjustable levers is that on a Harley, they are so fugly! :coolblue:
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Just put one on the 09 SERG. Jury is still out. Looks and functions ok. Its just lighter and feels a little different. Just need to ride it some.
BigLew
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The trouble with these adjustable levers is that on a Harley, they are so fugly! :coolblue:
;D Ah yes, the Harley conundrum raises its head again. What to do, go with better function, or stick with what looks good (style). We all know which choice Harley itself has made over the past several decades.
I'm guessing the people who have been complaining loudly and often about the engagement point, and the ones with small hands and a short reach, will probably decide function is more important, at least in this particular case. Eventually someone will come out with parts styled for the Harley market, now that the size of the market has been enlarged by Harley adding hydraulic clutches to the standard models as well as the CVO's. It's a shame that Harley itself can't be counted on to fix a problem they and they alone created, so that the customers don't have to search for aftermarket solutions. The aftermarket needs to send thanks to the fearless leadership of Harley over the past thirty years for creating the need for their aftermarket solutions. Just think how many companies wouldn't exist right now if Harley had done a decent job itself.
Jerry
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Just put one on the 09 SERG. Jury is still out. Looks and functions ok. Its just lighter and feels a little different. Just need to ride it some.
BigLew
What did you buy? Got a pic to post?
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Oberon has been extremely responsive to my questions regarding the adjustable levers. I sent them some photos they requested and supplied them with the HD part numbers for cross referencing. They forwarded my contact info to a US distributor of their levers and so far this is where I stand in my endeavor to add a set of adjustable levers to my 11.5 FLHTCUSE6..
an excerpt from the email I received from the distributor:
"We have Oberon adjustable levers to fit more than 700 different Harley models between 1996 and 2016. The exception are six low production CVO models built between 2010 and 2012 that seem to use a clutch lever that is at least somewhat different than all the others, unfortunately your 2011 FLHTCUSE6 is likely one of those six."
The email also goes on to say:
"I am happy to work with you to see if we can come up with a workable solution. please telephone me and we can discuss some ideas."
Monday I'll be reaching out to them to see what ideas they may have in mind.
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Update on the clutch ???
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Monday I'll be reaching out to them to see what ideas they may have in mind.
:-)
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Any updates on the Adjustable levers, looking at PSR, Hog Leverage, and Oberon.
thanks Smkblwr
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I don't believe I would pay the money again to buy one. Although I'm still using it.
BigLew
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Any updates on the Adjustable levers, looking at PSR, Hog Leverage, and Oberon.
thanks Smkblwr
After several emails back and forth between myself and Oberon, it seems if you have a 2010 to 2012 model you're likely out of luck...
They recommended that I change out the controls to the ones used on the VROD to ensure fitment. I looked into it but was unable to answer my own questions regarding the fluid flow, capacity and compatibility with with the calipers and such.... I decided it wasn't worth the effort to me.
I've gotten used to the engagement point by now so I think I'll just leave it alone since the stock setup has worked fine for the past 5 years. As they say "if it ain't broke don't fix it".
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I guess since I hate long explanations I will take a stab at it. Mine works as advertised on the 09. And has quite a few adjustments it just feels different if that makes sense. Its a shorter, lighter more curved lever kind of like an old dirt bike. So it feels different and it vibrates more. Jury is still out as to if it will stay on the bike or not. Just riding and enjoying the NC weather except for all the green pollen.
BigLew
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Thank for the reply's, gents. I just can't get used to it so far out ( or don't want to), shorts fingers. just put the VPC and new clutch plates in and its alot stiffer when its wound up hahaha, reminds me of the race clutch in my old road king. guess I will just have to get a finger stretcher hahaha.
thanks Smkblwr
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I'm still tempted by the Rekluse EXP to fix this problem. Shame it's so dear!