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[OILCAN1]

I have a 2007 ultra classic w a 110 conversion,251 cams 10.5 pistons runs at 100hp and 110ft/lb.
I'm looking at trading it in on a new ultra limited. What is the deal with the factory 103's? how much compression and so on. Can you get respectable power with just cams or do you need pistons heads ect.
I'm not looking for huge numbers just a decent running bike. If anybody can give me some ideas it would be greatly appreciated!

[grc]

Nothing special about the 103 in the Limited that I can see, just a big bore kit with flat top pistons, stock TC96 heads, similar to the old 95" kit for the 88" engines. 

Engine:   Air-cooled, Twin Cam 103™   
Displacement:  103 cu. in.              1690 cc 
Bore x Stroke:  3.875 in. / 4.38       98.425 mm / 111.252 
Engine Torque:  J1349    102 ft. lbs. @ 3500 rpm       128.2916 Nm @ 3500 rpm 
Fuel System:   Electronic Sequential Port Fuel Injection (ESPFI)   
Compression Ratio:  9.7:1 
Primary Drive:  Chain, 34/46 ratio   
Gear Ratio (overall):
1st  9.593   
2nd  6.65 
3rd  4.938   
4th  4.0 
5th  3.407   
6th  2.875 
Fuel Economy:  City  35 mpg      6.72 l/100km 
Fuel Economy:  Hwy  54 mpg      4.3556 l/100km   


Jerry

[HOGMIKE]

I have a 2007 ultra classic w a 110 conversion,251 cams 10.5 pistons runs at 100hp and 110ft/lb.
I'm looking at trading it in on a new ultra limited. What is the deal with the factory 103's? how much compression and so on. Can you get respectable power with just cams or do you need pistons heads ect.
I'm not looking for huge numbers just a decent running bike. If anybody can give me some ideas it would be greatly appreciated!

It won't have the power that your '07 has, but, with about $700 worth of parts, you will have "decent power".....just not "awesome power"!
You will need decent air cleaner, maybe mufflers, tuner for sure.
JMHO

[Unbalanced]

I have a 2007 ultra classic w a 110 conversion,251 cams 10.5 pistons runs at 100hp and 110ft/lb.
I'm looking at trading it in on a new ultra limited. What is the deal with the factory 103's? how much compression and so on. Can you get respectable power with just cams or do you need pistons heads ect.
I'm not looking for huge numbers just a decent running bike. If anybody can give me some ideas it would be greatly appreciated!

Oilcan,
The question is what are you willing to give up or feel is the trade off you can live with.

A friend of mine just upgraded his 96" motor to a 103, its an 09 FLHX.  He sent the heads to Sachs, used a 570 S&S cam, HD tapered adjustables and 10.5 to flat tops and sent the throttlebody to HPI to have the Fly By Wire (FBW) opened up to a 54mm as well as the HD heavy breather and the Vance Hines stepped 2 into 1 pipe with a Power Commander V.   He is making a 117 tq and a 112 hp.   He didnt spend a ton and is thrilled with the results.  

Another proven build for the 103's were the zippers 575's which a lot of people have used and that as a bolt it and a good tune / open air breather and pipes should get you somewhat close to what you had in the 110 with quite a bit more down low.  Although I am not sure what stock springs will handle in your 103 limited that might be a stumbling point as the older CVO's heads had spring clearances up to 630 lift.   Might check with Fired00d and a few others that have this combo although again the springs might be an issue.
If memory serves me right these ended up around 108 tq and 100 hp.  I am sure someone will correct me or say what they had for ya.  

Some others are getting some really nice numbers from the Cycle Rama 575 cams.  As a bolt in on the 110s Herko just built and tuned one i believe it was 122 tq / 102 hp  no headwork.   Might be something to consider also.

[Fired00d]

Oilcan,
The question is what are you willing to give up or feel is the trade off you can live with.

A friend of mine just upgraded his 96" motor to a 103, its an 09 FLHX.  He sent the heads to Sachs, used a 570 S&S cam, HD tapered adjustables and 10.5 to flat tops and sent the throttlebody to HPI to have the Fly By Wire (FBW) opened up to a 54mm as well as the HD heavy breather and the Vance Hines stepped 2 into 1 pipe with a Power Commander V.   He is making a 117 tq and a 112 hp.   He didnt spend a ton and is thrilled with the results.  

Another proven build for the 103's were the zippers 575's which a lot of people have used and that as a bolt it and a good tune / open air breather and pipes should get you somewhat close to what you had in the 110 with quite a bit more down low.  Although I am not sure what stock springs will handle in your 103 limited that might be a stumbling point as the older CVO's heads had spring clearances up to 630 lift.   Might check with Fired00d and a few others that have this combo although again the springs might be an issue.
If memory serves me right these ended up around 108 tq and 100 hp.  I am sure someone will correct me or say what they had for ya.  

Some others are getting some really nice numbers from the Cycle Rama 575 cams.  As a bolt in on the 110s Herko just built and tuned one i believe it was 122 tq / 102 hp  no headwork.   Might be something to consider also.

Very happy with that setup (a list of my mods are in my signature) which dyno'd at 98 +/- HP and 108 +/- TQ. These cams were designed specifically to trick the stock heads that came in the CVO 103ci motors so not sure if the heads are the same in the limited.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[OILCAN1]

Thanks for all the grat advice I will look into the heads to see if they are the same as on the se103 motors. The zippers 575's look like a good choice. Currently I'm on somewhat of a tight budget so I'm hoping just pipes,ac,tuner and cams will fill the bill.

[HD Street Performance]

The ultra limited has a stock 96" head fitted with ACR compression releases. These are not close to the CVO 103 which has the ports and valves of the SE MCR heads and a wide open chamber VS bathtub.

[OILCAN1]

So what would be a good bolt in cam choice in your opinion?

[HD Street Performance]

There are many would depend on what the goal was.
For added grunt and torque that hits high and soon I would use a Woods TW5-6. It's a heavy bike and most of the guys I talk to are not looking to break the numbers records. Most just want the 6th gear to become useable without a drop in gears every little hill at 65mph or so. That is easy to get, a good tune and pipe are a must.

[OILCAN1]

Dewey,
are these engines super pipe sensitive like the 110's? I've always run 2into2 for looks but I think on a new bike I am going to try 2 into 1 they are starting to grow on me and I know the performance gains are better.

[HOGMIKE]

Dewey,
are these engines super pipe sensitive like the 110's? I've always run 2into2 for looks but I think on a new bike I am going to try 2 into 1 they are starting to grow on me and I know the performance gains are better.

FYI:
The engines on the 103 Limited are just standard 96" engines with larger bore. Other than ACR's, there is no difference. They are NOT like the older 103 SE engines.
You can expect about 10/10 (conservative) increase in HP/TQ with a muffler change, air cleaner change and a decent tune from what I saw on my Limited.
You will be fine on whatever exhaust you decide, probably not a 2HP change with the most common systems out there.

JMHO, of course!

[HD Street Performance]

The sensitivity to a good pipe doesn't really happen until you change to a cam with more than stock overlap. BTW take a look at the overlap numbers on that SE251 mentioned and compare it to similar duration cams just for a point of reference.
If stage 1 (stock cams) is the end of the line no concern.
True duals on the bagger will cull some low end torque
The stock headpipe (assuming 2 into1 into 2)is fine with cat removed, if equipped
A pipe like a Fatcat will get you more torque, the mass number not so much peaks, just more especially down low. Faster to rev, less gear changes.

[Unbalanced]

If you go with the D&D Fatcat you will also have the "Dip" in the torque curve that can be mostly tuned out that no one seems to mention in the recommendations.

[Twolanerider]

If you go with the D&D Fatcat you will also have the "Dip" in the torque curve that can be mostly tuned out that no one seems to mention in the recommendations.

No dip in the torque curve with Fatcats on either of mine.  Never was.  If it can be tuned out it's not a hardware mandate but a tuning issue anyway.

[SBB]

No dip in the torque curve with Fatcats on either of mine.  Never was.  If it can be tuned out it's not a hardware mandate but a tuning issue anyway.

+ 1

SBB

[sadunbar]

+ 1

SBB

+ 2

[Unbalanced]

Here is an example of the dip ... showing right where you would want the power.

Glad you other guys dont have it,

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=6375.msg339286#msg339286

[sadunbar]

Here is an example of the dip ... showing right where you would want the power.

Glad you other guys dont have it,

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=6375.msg339286#msg339286

When John Golden did my tune, I asked him about a "dip" with the Fat Cat pipe....  He chuckled, then smiled and said "No, there won't be a dip......" 

There wasn't one....   

[Unbalanced]

Scott,

As I said earlier glad you dont have it, but go to google and search for the following.

"D&D Fatcat dip" 

[sadunbar]

Scott,

As I said earlier glad you dont have it, but go to google and search for the following.

"D&D Fatcat dip" 

I've seen plenty of dyno sheets with the dip (using Fat Cats)...  Just saying that I have also seen a few without the dip....  John Golden did both Twolane's and mine without the dip...

[DCFIREMANN]

Wow a bunch to post here on this one.

The fat kat does not have a dip. If it does there is a problem somewhere else. The THUNDER HEADER does have the inherent dip and it can be worked out. With a peice of hardware and tuning. For a 103 I would be running a thunder header. The 103 on the limited has stock 96 heads. A very good head to work with but not a good head for the Zippers 575 cams. The 575 cam was built for the CVO 103 back in the early days. They do use it on the 110's with success. The problem is with the HEMI HEAD design of the CVO heads. The 575 has early opening and closing events to cause an increase in compression, hence the big jump in TQ. It is a very good cam but I would not use it in the 103 Limited. There are some very good choices out there.

If you are on a tight budget a good air cleaner, exhaust and fuel managment programer with a proper tune will give you some very nice numbers. I think it will give you some numbers close to what you had with your 110. IMHO the 110's are over rated. At least in my neighbor hood!!!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[Unbalanced]

Dawg,

There must be a problem somewhere else on a ton of other builds then.     Guess your buddies at Zippers have issues with the dip huh.


I didnt post it originally but you can find the post here.
http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=10343.msg487326#msg487326

[Twolanerider]

Here is an example of the dip ... showing right where you would want the power.

Glad you other guys dont have it,

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=6375.msg339286#msg339286

As others have illustrated the FatCats themselves don't necessitate a dip.  Just because you've been told its true doesn't make it so.  Too many cases of just a pipe swap happening that didn't bring a dip in the process when there was none to begin with.

That doesn't say that someone's combination with the pipes might be an overall poor combination.  Or that a poor tuning effort didn't induce it.  But in and of themselves those pipes don't buy you a dip nor do they cause one.  The data set is too large and well known.  Finding different ways to suggest the same thing may be cute and self fulfilling.  But it's still sophistic.

[Twolanerider]

Dawg,

There must be a problem somewhere else on a ton of other builds then.     Guess your buddies at Zippers have issues with the dip huh.

And suggesting that Zippers themselves might not be quite the nuts is no great revelation either.  It still doesn't isolate the tuning effort from the pipes.

[SBB]

Just because you've been told its true doesn't make it so. 

As always, Don has nailed it again!

SBB

[Unbalanced]

Yup Don, I guess the flat spots in most dynos or dips around 3500 dont indicate it, just means a good tuner tuned out the majority of the dip.   Seems kind of ironic you dont see those pipes climbing there in that range doesnt it.  Guess it was plausible yet fallacious now wasnt it.

[HOGMIKE]

I have a 2007 ultra classic w a 110 conversion,251 cams 10.5 pistons runs at 100hp and 110ft/lb.
I'm looking at trading it in on a new ultra limited. What is the deal with the factory 103's? how much compression and so on. Can you get respectable power with just cams or do you need pistons heads ect.
I'm not looking for huge numbers just a decent running bike. If anybody can give me some ideas it would be greatly appreciated!

Think of what you expect to use this bike for.
The basically "stock" 103 bike works pretty well for long rides, two up, quietly, with no real surprises.
Once you change cams, heads, etc you start into that area of chasing horsepower, and we all know that THAT never ends! LOL
Before dumping a bunch of $$$ into a new 103, think of buying a little older bike and building the HP you can have fun with.
On the other hand, if you want 120/120 out of your new 103, go for it! Just remember your day to day "manners" will take a hit, but, the "fun factor" will be huge!
JMHO
 

[GC_Super]

I really haven't kept up with the technology of the new bikes, but if a guys on a budget and wants to keep the mods to a minumum, isn't there a gearing change available for the newer bikes ? Seems like I saw something indicating the trike had lower gearing.  I had my 06 changed to 337 before I ever picked it up along with the usual pipes/breather/tune etc and have been very happy. Have switched bikes with friends 103 w/o the gearing change and it makes quite a difference in "feel" as the power comes in a lot sooner for not much $$$$ .

[grc]

I really haven't kept up with the technology of the new bikes, but if a guys on a budget and wants to keep the mods to a minumum, isn't there a gearing change available for the newer bikes ? Seems like I saw something indicating the trike had lower gearing.  I had my 06 changed to 337 before I ever picked it up along with the usual pipes/breather/tune etc and have been very happy. Have switched bikes with friends 103 w/o the gearing change and it makes quite a difference in "feel" as the power comes in a lot sooner for not much $$$$ .

This is an often overlooked solution, probably because it isn't as "sexy" as cams, high compression pistons, ported/polished heads, and huge throttlebodies.  With our older bikes, it was very simple and relatively inexpensive to just change the primary ratio with readily available Harley parts.  Unfortunately, with the '07 and later model primary system there is no alternative crankshaft gear that retains the compensator feature.  There are alternative transmission output sprockets available from folks like Andrews and Baker, but that entails more expense for labor, a new belt, and speedometer correction.

A good Stage I setup, tune, and a gearing change also has the added benefit of being less likely to adversely affect reliability, as compared to the sexier stuff. 


Jerry

[HD Street Performance]

Who cares about sexy
Change the gears!
Mine were done right when Baker released the 30t front pulley. Made my 6th so much more useable. With performance mods nothing wrong with changing the rear also then a belt change is not required.
Here is a FatCat bagger (the only alleged dip offender by the internet), my heads 1.94" intake 1.575 exhaust, 113" 10.5/1
This build had 20K on it when tested and has since gone higher as the timing was not right (false ion sensing). we will test it again and I expect at least 5/5 more.

[Unbalanced]

Beautiful Curve bet it runs fantastic, just too bad you arent comparing apples to apples with a skunkworks baffle.  

I dont know what the owner changed, and it might be nice to find out, but its not apples to apples, but a good troll for business.  

link to the original post for it.  mileage went up too ! from 15k miles to 20k miles ...

http://harleytechtalk.org/htt/index.php/topic,21627.msg221524.html#msg221524

Details:
Deweys Pro Street Heads, by Don, 1.94 7mm intake, Custom, 1.57 Kibblewhite Exhaust valve
10.6/1
HQ CP pistons
Woods TW8g
Jims Stock Ratio Roller Rockers
HPI TB
FatCat with Skunkworks (owner designed) Baffle
Hoban bottom end

[HD Street Performance]

Yeah you are right but really the baffle if anything should have increased any dip, it is huge (2.25") and perforated (almost light straight pipe but with small holes) but now back to that thread...

One of the posters did mention about the possibility of no dip due to the smaller than traditional exhaust valve. Could that have something to do with it?

Maybe we need to look at the "sum of the parts" rather than trying to find the smoking gun or silver bullet by singling out components.

As far as the miles they are actual, the bike is daily riden rain or otherwise plus trips.
But don't let me confuse things with logic....

[Fullsac Performance]

Thanks for all the grat advice I will look into the heads to see if they are the same as on the se103 motors. The zippers 575's look like a good choice. Currently I'm on somewhat of a tight budget so I'm hoping just pipes,ac,tuner and cams will fill the bill.

Tight budget? Here's good bang for the buck.

Fullsac Stage I XPipe sleeper kit. Pretty simple bolt on deal that brings the 103 to life.
Dyno chart shows a stock 103 VS the Stage I XPipe Sleeper kit.
Just for the record, the stock dyno run was from Hogmikes 103.
The second run was from another customers 2010 103 after I installed the XPipe.
Add some 54s and HP would go mid 90s.

Parts list
Fullsac X Pipe 
2.0 cored mufflers
TTS with fuel map
Ness AC.

Steve George


 

[HOGMIKE]

Tight budget? Here's good bang for the buck.

Fullsac Stage I XPipe sleeper kit. Pretty simple bolt on deal that brings the 103 to life.
Dyno chart shows a stock 103 VS the Stage I XPipe Sleeper kit.
Just for the record, the stock dyno run was from Hogmikes 103.
The second run was from another customers 2010 103 after I installed the XPipe.
Add some 54s and HP would go mid 90s.

Parts list
Fullsac X Pipe  
2.0 cored mufflers
TTS with fuel map
Ness AC.

Steve George

Yep, I'll be adding my x-pipe shortly, after tires and a mandatory trip to see my brother!
BTW: This is my tune as it started out I think this was the first pull:

"Bang for the buck"........you bet!!!