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Author Topic: Trying to avoid 110 Engine Issues  (Read 7980 times)

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TCinVA

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Re: Trying to avoid 110 Engine Issues
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2007, 08:02:47 PM »

Got an 07 B/O Jester.  RYO breather, V&H true duals and S&S SPOs, SERT, dyno'd and took AFR to 13.6 across the board.  Torque at 110 (cute ;)), HP at 99.  Mileage still good - 38 cruising at highway speeds - "slightly" less than "HOIST Speeds"  ;).  Temperature yesterday in stop and stop traffic in Northern VA with air temp at 95, LED in tank read 244.  Before the true duals and tune - I'd seen as much as 278 in cooler air temps! Felt it, too.  I swear you could bbq a rack or ribs next to my right leg.  I also put the new HD heat shields on.  Very comfortable now.  I'm convinced the proper tune was the most beneficial piece of the equation.
TC
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blowncobra

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Re: Trying to avoid 110 Engine Issues
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2007, 08:41:44 AM »

Jerry,

Your right on the mark!   :2vrolijk_21:

For those worried about viscosity breakdown must understand this is a normal characteristic of lubricants and finding the actual TBN (total base number) of a lubricant is difficult and is the sole benchmark of the lubricants stability, multi-vis oils tend to be less stable than straight weights unless the manufacturer adds the correct stabilizer additives(expensive). No doubt VB occurs but determining at what point VB causes a problem on a given engine is better left to oil sample testing to baseline both the lubricant and wear particles. :soapbox: Believe it or don't there are petroleum based oils that perform better than some synthetics! ??? :o

A cooler running engine can be as bad as a hot running engine, it just tends to creep up on ya a little slower and whack ya when you least expect it, hmmm  :nixweiss:piston/cylinder,crank,valve guide failure at 20-30k or at least excessive oil consumption, you know the guys you ride with that when they leave a light or when they shift you see that little puff of blue smoke! a little rattle here and there!

I see and talk to allot of guys about tuners and power commanders etc. and it seems results are all over the place, with the majority not happy or wanting more, i venture to say that most tuner shops and 98% of bike techs do not understand 4 or 5 gas technology and how that technology is the single most important technology for putting a tune together for performance, efficiency,drivability and engine longevity. And by far it is the best diagnostic tool a good tech can have. It is a fine line to find all 4 and those looking for pure maximum torque as the only benchmark of a good tune may be bragging about their numbers as the little gremlins do their dirty work.
Given most feedback systems tend to be slightly on the lean side and in most cases more fuel allows better performance on most engines, but this does come with a sacrifice in other areas.  :soapbox:

Certainly i would be concerned with temps in the 260+ range and these could be a result of many possibilities from internal mechanical concerns to airflow issues, to engine management strategies. Many times it is believed to be a mechanical problem because that is what is obvious to the average tech, when in fact the mechanical failure is only the result of an underlying problem that goes unattended and eventually leads to additional mechanical failures. ( this is how products usually get a bad rap, owners get upset,excessive warranty claims and expense to the owner) :soapbox:

 I am as much a gear head as the next guy and desire as much performance as possible, but i like to enjoy the performance and not be tinkering, adjusting, worrying and visiting the shop. RELIABILITY WITH PERFORMANCE is what separates the men from the boys in the tuner market. :soapbox:

Jerry is correct, too much information to a public that really does not understand the real technical aspects of what is happening is a troublesome thing. Heck just look at my ramblings!  ::) But on the other hand thats what puts food on my table and buys my toys :2vrolijk_21:

Most of us should be happy with changing our own oil, bolting new chrome on,detailing our rides and leave the blackbox stuff to the pro's ( that for sure is a whole topic within itself)

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Re: Trying to avoid 110 Engine Issues
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2007, 08:56:39 AM »

Jerry,

Your right on the mark!   :2vrolijk_21:

For those worried about viscosity breakdown must understand this is a normal characteristic of lubricants and finding the actual TBN (total base number) of a lubricant is difficult and is the sole benchmark of the lubricants stability, multi-vis oils tend to be less stable than straight weights unless the manufacturer adds the correct stabilizer additives(expensive). No doubt VB occurs but determining at what point VB causes a problem on a given engine is better left to oil sample testing to baseline both the lubricant and wear particles. :soapbox: Believe it or don't there are petroleum based oils that perform better than some synthetics! ??? :o

A cooler running engine can be as bad as a hot running engine, it just tends to creep up on ya a little slower and whack ya when you least expect it, hmmm  :nixweiss:piston/cylinder,crank,valve guide failure at 20-30k or at least excessive oil consumption, you know the guys you ride with that when they leave a light or when they shift you see that little puff of blue smoke! a little rattle here and there!

I see and talk to allot of guys about tuners and power commanders etc. and it seems results are all over the place, with the majority not happy or wanting more, i venture to say that most tuner shops and 98% of bike techs do not understand 4 or 5 gas technology and how that technology is the single most important technology for putting a tune together for performance, efficiency,drivability and engine longevity. And by far it is the best diagnostic tool a good tech can have. It is a fine line to find all 4 and those looking for pure maximum torque as the only benchmark of a good tune may be bragging about their numbers as the little gremlins do their dirty work.
Given most feedback systems tend to be slightly on the lean side and in most cases more fuel allows better performance on most engines, but this does come with a sacrifice in other areas.  :soapbox:

Certainly i would be concerned with temps in the 260+ range and these could be a result of many possibilities from internal mechanical concerns to airflow issues, to engine management strategies. Many times it is believed to be a mechanical problem because that is what is obvious to the average tech, when in fact the mechanical failure is only the result of an underlying problem that goes unattended and eventually leads to additional mechanical failures. ( this is how products usually get a bad rap, owners get upset,excessive warranty claims and expense to the owner) :soapbox:

 I am as much a gear head as the next guy and desire as much performance as possible, but i like to enjoy the performance and not be tinkering, adjusting, worrying and visiting the shop. RELIABILITY WITH PERFORMANCE is what separates the men from the boys in the tuner market. :soapbox:

Jerry is correct, too much information to a public that really does not understand the real technical aspects of what is happening is a troublesome thing. Heck just look at my ramblings!  ::) But on the other hand thats what puts food on my table and buys my toys :2vrolijk_21:

Most of us should be happy with changing our own oil, bolting new chrome on,detailing our rides and leave the blackbox stuff to the pro's ( that for sure is a whole topic within itself)



Good commentary BC. The tuning is ultimately the most important improvement you can do to these bikes. Whether it's a hot rodded motor or bone stock, these engines need to be setup properly to accomplish what BC says above. Tuning should be done to cover all 4 of the areas he mentioned. Never underestimate the importance of a good tune! And yes, unless you are one, leave it to the Pros. Have it done properly and leave it alone until you make changes. And use the tuning device your tuner recommends. He's the expert using the tool. Don't make this decision for him.

Hoist! 8)
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blowncobra

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Re: Trying to avoid 110 Engine Issues
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2007, 09:25:43 AM »

Hoist,

Thanks, i was just in one of those techno moods, sitting here in the office craving to ride tonight! Was in Canada to ride 2 weeks ago and it rained most of the time, Damn raining here every day for the last week makes ya stir crazy, told the wife rain or not gotta ride tonight, her and the sportster can stay in the garage if they skeered!

 :coolblue:
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Unbalanced

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Re: Trying to avoid 110 Engine Issues
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2007, 12:56:54 PM »

BlownCobra,

Curious who your using to tune your bikes since your so close to me an Rhino.
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blowncobra

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Re: Trying to avoid 110 Engine Issues
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2007, 03:34:20 PM »

Unbalanced,

Hey hows it going.

Actually i do all my own tuning,  lately i think the best success will be found at www.carlsspeedshop.com located in Daytona.

I do my own because i am anal ( no i am a pain in the $&*#@!) about who wrenches on my stuff, and i have the equipment and background in engine management and feedback fuel systems.

Mixed results  I here from OHD 33rd street, from some of the guys I ride with. Personally i wouldn't let them check the date on a calender.( I'll tell you a story one day about that)

Regardless most of these tuners tend toward the rich side (it's a safer bet) as do most downloadable Map programs. 

The best advice i can offer is to discuss in detail with the tuner exactly what your looking for in the way of performance, your style of driving, how much of the time you will have a rider on the bike etc. these are all imperative to get what your looking for and thus are tailored to your needs. And rarely will it be perfect the first time, so expect a follow up visit. Even on a dyno it is impossible to replicate every exact condition. And of course it depends on how aware or tuned into the bike you are. 

Recently a buddy of mine had his 07 night train set up, he was tickled pink how it ran, when riding i said to him, hey you really should get that preignition looked after asap, he returned it to be told that oh that noise is a compensator sprocket problem, were having some problems with those. He called me yesterday to tell me that he is having it retuned since there was no problem with the compensator sprocket.

The other advice, however really my opinion, and will meet with alot of disbelief of those that don't truly understand feedback fuel systems is KEEP THE O2 SENSORS in the exhaust stream.

I will try to get up with y'all and ride in near future.
You guys going to ride the Florida HOG rally?

Hearing the thunder outside the office now, afternoon monsoon soon to follow i guess
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Unbalanced

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Re: Trying to avoid 110 Engine Issues
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2007, 04:25:19 PM »

The storm already blew through Sanford still sticky outside, but nice skies now I think your in luck for your ride tonight.   I know all about Orlando Harley and no longer use them although the shop steward is a pretty good guy and decent tuner.  (nick)   I have lots of stories to share with you about them.

I pretty much do my own thing as well, I use the Wego IID with wide bands to get my motor where I want it then usually go to a dyno for numbers and to play with timing on sweeps that that I really cant do easily on the road, was just curious who if anyone you used for the higher end tuning as it too difficult to hold wide open 5th gear long enough to get good sampling of data for the volumetrics.

http://www.flstatehogrally.com/ 

I don't know if we will make the Hog Ralley, we will be having a really busy October 

With Maggie Valley unofficial site gathering, Biketoberfest and a work function.

I really wish harley would have given us the choice of wideband / narrow band to turn them off.   My choice would be Wide Bands 1st as I prefer not to use the narrows since the lowest you can tune them to is 14.0 - 14.2 through the closed loop bias tables on the 07's.   In some places that is great for economy and mild power, but overall its not what I am looking for.   I would prefer a 13.7 range which is a good middle of the road choice for power / economy.   I can run an entire map other than 80-100 throttle there and get 37 mpg even including some throttle twisting and I don't have to worry about the motor being to lean or heat.

 

« Last Edit: July 20, 2007, 04:47:29 PM by Unbalanced »
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bc

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Re: Trying to avoid 110 Engine Issues
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2007, 07:04:25 PM »


The other advice, however really my opinion, and will meet with alot of disbelief of those that don't truly understand feedback fuel systems is KEEP THE O2 SENSORS in the exhaust stream.


If by "in the exhaust stream" you mean keeping the ECM in closed-loop mode, then to be honest, it's of limited value - IMO only at highway cruise, and even then you can accomplish close to the same by setting the right range leaner anyway.

bc
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Re: Trying to avoid 110 Engine Issues
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2007, 07:12:16 PM »

Unbalanced,

Hey hows it going.

Actually i do all my own tuning,  lately i think the best success will be found at www.carlsspeedshop.com located in Daytona.

I do my own because i am anal ( no i am a pain in the $&*#@!) about who wrenches on my stuff, and i have the equipment and background in engine management and feedback fuel systems.

Mixed results  I here from OHD 33rd street, from some of the guys I ride with. Personally i wouldn't let them check the date on a calender.( I'll tell you a story one day about that)

Regardless most of these tuners tend toward the rich side (it's a safer bet) as do most downloadable Map programs. 

The best advice i can offer is to discuss in detail with the tuner exactly what your looking for in the way of performance, your style of driving, how much of the time you will have a rider on the bike etc. these are all imperative to get what your looking for and thus are tailored to your needs. And rarely will it be perfect the first time, so expect a follow up visit. Even on a dyno it is impossible to replicate every exact condition. And of course it depends on how aware or tuned into the bike you are. 

Recently a buddy of mine had his 07 night train set up, he was tickled pink how it ran, when riding i said to him, hey you really should get that preignition looked after asap, he returned it to be told that oh that noise is a compensator sprocket problem, were having some problems with those. He called me yesterday to tell me that he is having it retuned since there was no problem with the compensator sprocket.

The other advice, however really my opinion, and will meet with alot of disbelief of those that don't truly understand feedback fuel systems is KEEP THE O2 SENSORS in the exhaust stream.

I will try to get up with y'all and ride in near future.
You guys going to ride the Florida HOG rally?

Hearing the thunder outside the office now, afternoon monsoon soon to follow i guess

I assume you mean with the SERT? The PC doesn't use them, and it controls the fuel and timing parameters, not the ECM. Does the PC make it a non-feedback fuel system? :confused5: I'm pretty versed in the basics, but I'm still trying to grasp all the fine details of this FI system. I know what I needed to do to the engine mechanicals, and now the bike's going to the best tuner I can find in the NE. Tuning will definitely be left in the hands of the Pro, and a PC expert! Thanks for your detailed technical posts blowncobra! :2vrolijk_21: Hoist! 8)
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Re: Trying to avoid 110 Engine Issues
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2007, 12:59:43 PM »

If by "in the exhaust stream" you mean keeping the ECM in closed-loop mode, then to be honest, it's of limited value - IMO only at highway cruise, and even then you can accomplish close to the same by setting the right range leaner anyway.

bc

In a perfect world???, however when you happen upon a fuel with a different RVP(reed vapor pressure) value, fuel station failed to label ethanol fuel or higher level of ethanol than can be tolerated, a slight intake side leak,slightly out of range sensors,slight exhaust leak at the head pipes,low battery/charging system voltage,restricted or over oiled air filter,fuel contamination in the crankcase oil,improper combustion in one cylinder,low ignition KV output, and these are just some of the things that can mess with a preset tune value. In the stream i refer to is to have the O/2 sensors watching and sending info so the PCM can react appropriatley by sourcing a predetirmined look up table and try to compensate and if it can"t it will tell me it can't so i can take the steps to diagnose the real problem.

Agreed pure high performance, set the tune and let it rip, but overall drivability and reliability, yeah i want the O/2 sensors workin for me.
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bc

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Re: Trying to avoid 110 Engine Issues
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2007, 03:21:10 PM »

In a perfect world???, however when you happen upon a fuel with a different RVP(reed vapor pressure) value, fuel station failed to label ethanol fuel or higher level of ethanol than can be tolerated, a slight intake side leak,slightly out of range sensors,slight exhaust leak at the head pipes,low battery/charging system voltage,restricted or over oiled air filter,fuel contamination in the crankcase oil,improper combustion in one cylinder,low ignition KV output, and these are just some of the things that can mess with a preset tune value. In the stream i refer to is to have the O/2 sensors watching and sending info so the PCM can react appropriatley by sourcing a predetirmined look up table and try to compensate and if it can"t it will tell me it can't so i can take the steps to diagnose the real problem.

Agreed pure high performance, set the tune and let it rip, but overall drivability and reliability, yeah i want the O/2 sensors workin for me.

I get your drift, but a lot of what you're citing is gonna be out range for narrow band sensors.  Most of them would have to be slight variations, as you said with several.  The thing is, with just a slight variation on one variable, the effect on the tuning isn't going to be much, either.  With more than one variable, chances are that you're either hosed because the ability of the sensors/ECM to compensate is overwhelmed, or they offset to some degree so no real impact to tuning once again.  I think the benefit is more theoretical than real.

I am curious about one thing, though - how does fuel contamination of the crankcase oil play into this??  I never thought of that as something affecting the ECM.

bc
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BalDeagle

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Re: Trying to avoid 110 Engine Issues
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2007, 03:27:07 PM »

In a perfect world???, however when you happen upon a fuel with a different RVP(reed vapor pressure) value, fuel station failed to label ethanol fuel or higher level of ethanol than can be tolerated, a slight intake side leak,slightly out of range sensors,slight exhaust leak at the head pipes,low battery/charging system voltage,restricted or over oiled air filter,fuel contamination in the crankcase oil,improper combustion in one cylinder,low ignition KV output, and these are just some of the things that can mess with a preset tune value. In the stream i refer to is to have the O/2 sensors watching and sending info so the PCM can react appropriatley by sourcing a predetirmined look up table and try to compensate and if it can"t it will tell me it can't so i can take the steps to diagnose the real problem.

Agreed pure high performance, set the tune and let it rip, but overall drivability and reliability, yeah i want the O/2 sensors workin for me.

If those little O2 sensors are doing such a good job and we really need them how come we managed for so long without them ??

Just my .02

Nige
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Re: Trying to avoid 110 Engine Issues
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2007, 04:23:46 PM »

If those little O2 sensors are doing such a good job and we really need them how come we managed for so long without them ??

Just my .02

Nige

 :2vrolijk_21:   Nige,  I believe blowncobra is citing the many benefits of closed loop operation in the automotive world, just as I've done in the past.  Unfortunately, H-D's idea of a closed loop system is in no way, shape, or form anywhere close to the sophistication of the system in your auto.  And unless you find a way around the 14.7:1 AFR dictated by the system, running one of these engines in closed loop mode results in a too lean (hot) condition.  

I had hoped that one of the wide band aftermarket systems would be the answer, but after seeing all the postings about problems with the ThunderMax I guess that option isn't quite ready for prime time either, at least not for everyone.  In the meantime, I'm going with your philosophy; we've survived this long without it, and I guess we'll continue to survive a while longer. ;)

Jerry
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Re: Trying to avoid 110 Engine Issues
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2007, 04:32:52 PM »

------------------------------------------I am curious about one thing, though - how does fuel contamination of the crankcase oil play into this??  I never thought of that as something affecting the ECM.
bc
bc,

Fuel fumes in the crankcase oil will get routed back into the intake through the crankcase ventilation system.  This additional fuel is not accounted for by the ECM, so you get a too rich mixture.  With O2 sensors in closed loop mode, the ECM reduces fuel to compensate.  Can be a big deal with catalytic converters in an automobile, don't see it being a biggie with our dinosaur V-Twins.

Jerry
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Re: Trying to avoid 110 Engine Issues
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2007, 05:19:53 PM »

GRC,

Today you can get around the 14.7 somewhat you can limit it with the SERT in closed loop bias tables.

If you set them to a max value you can get them down in the areas you wish to work with to approx 14-14.2 to 1.

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