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[efrbc1]

2005 SEEG, 103" motor.  The bike will be "down" for a bit waiting on painted parts so I will be using the time to change to gear drive cams.  The motor is currently stock with the addition of an SE air cleaner and Reinhart TD's.  The dyno sheet I got when I bought it showed 78 ft/lb torque down low which is less (a lot) than my 95" RK with TW26g cams.  I am staying with the Andrews cams, but not sure if the 37's or 54's would be best.  AMS recommends the 37's and Andrews the 54's.

Looking for lots of torque down low - most of my riding is done between 2000 and 3500 rpm with an occasional run up to redline (for fun!).  I know the 37 will pull hard down low but will it run out on top?  The 54 will run high but will it give me what I am looking for down low?

I also have the option of going back to the stock headpipes and running a set of Screamin Eagle 61115-98B slip ons which I know will improve my performance down low.

37 or 54 cams??
Stay with the Reinharts or go back to the stock headpipes with the 98B'??

So, what I am looking for is feedback from someone who has a similar setup to what I am thinking about doing.  What do you have and how do you like it??

Thanks,

Chris

[DCFIREMANN]

Chris I would rethink this. Your 103 CVO motor has a Hemi CC chamber. Your CR is around 8.9 to 1. This is very low. Two companies have developed cams for this motor and your setup. Zippers and Freedom. Both have changed the cam timing to make the motor think it has a higher CR.

This would be my recommendation. Either cams, fueling pump and lifters, adjustable push rods and a baisley spring. Then some sort of fuel injection management for your new setup.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[efrbc1]

Read some info on the Zippers 575 and the Freedom 14's but from what I can gather is these are both more of a mid to top cam.  I am looking for something that will pull tree stumps!!  My RK is an AMS 95", with their head work and TW26G cams.  Over 90 ft/lb of torque @ 2200 rpm.  The dyno on my SEEG is 76 ft/lb torque @ 2500 and then dips a bit.  I'm hoping that the change from the Reinharts will help but I know the stock CVO cams suck.

Will be going with AMS lifters and adj. pushrods.  Probably the PClll over the SERT.

Chris

[DCFIREMANN]

OK one more time. The heads on your CVO are nothing like the heads on your Road King. That is why you want the CVO cams.

If you don't want to buy a CVO specific set of cams pull your heads have them tricked and then buy a new set of pistons and go that route. The CVO cams cut in real hard around 2500 to 3000. That is their full TQ potential.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[hd-dude]

DC is giving you sound advise, stick with the cams that are designed for the combustion chamber that is in your engine. The CVO 103 heads are huge (98cc) with low compression. [img]http://The FCC 13 or Zippers 575 are a perfect fit. The zippers comes on a few hundred RPM sooners than the FCC but die off faster.

Here is a dyno run with RH true duels and the FCC 14 cams

Many more runs in this thread:
http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=162.0

[efrbc1]

DCFIREMAN, sent you a PM.

Chris

[DCFIREMANN]

Chris I sent you one back. If you need anything else hit me up/

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[efrbc1]

Thanks.  Checked the YB13 and YB 14 cam specs.  The Zippers website is sending my Norton Anti-Virus into overdrive so I'll have to call them tomorrow.  Looking at this differently now so I guess my choices have changed.  How similar are the Yuill Bros (13 or 14) and the Zippers 575's??

Any thoughts about the exhaust - keep the Reinharts on or switch back to the stock headpipe with the 98B's??

Chris

[Fired00d]

Here are some threads to look at concerning the Freedom (Yuill Brothers) and Zippers Cams......

REDSHIFT 575 CAMS & OTHER PRETTY PARTS (scveral dyno runs in this thread)

FCC14 Cams 103 Dyno

Freedom Cycles "Secret" FCC9 Cam Dyno (earlier version of the FCC14)

Freedom Cycles CVO 103 Cams

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[efrbc1]

OK after "consulting" with a bunch of CVO 103" owners, I have decided to go with the Zippers 575 cams.  Putting together a shopping list of sorts:

575 Gear Drive Cams
S&S Gear Set and Install kit
Feuling Oil Pump (std. one)
Feuling HP+ Lifters
Probably a SERT as this is what my tuner recommends
SE Adjustable Pushrods (already have them)

Besides gaskets and "shop stuff" anything overlooked??

Previous thread mentioned checking cam lobe clearance.  May or may not be necessary.  I think I know how to do this but any pointers are greatly appreciated.

Looking forward to some "kick ass" results, thanks to all.

Chris

[Fired00d]

You should be happy w/those upgrades. I am... see my signature.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[hogasm]

Has anyone done this cam change with only a breather slip ons?

[Twolanerider]

Has anyone done this cam change with only a breather slip ons?

Zippers recommended the cam being done with or after better exhaust and air intake changes.  But Zippers likes themselves.  So you can't really trust their judgement... 

[Twolanerider]

N.B., sorry...  The 575 cam package has been a good one and was for me. 






Now back to our regularly scheduled bashing....

[CVOJOE]

Zippers recommended the cam being done with or after better exhaust and air intake changes.  But Zippers likes themselves.  So you can't really trust their judgement... 

Go with the Freedom cams, they provide fantastic service which is not the experience many of us have had with Zippers, at least IMHO.

Joe

[DCFIREMANN]

Go with the Freedom cams, they provide fantastic service which is not the experience many of us have had with Zippers, at least IMHO.

Joe

This set of cams from Zippers are the Chit!!! We all know they have had some complaints with customer service but I think they are working on the problem. The package Chris wants to do will be perfect for him. He is going with a SERT not a PC or TM. That is what his guy is familiar with. So I know he will be OK.

Again Chris if you need anything hit me up.

Be Safe

THE DAWG 

[porthole]

so - along with cams what about the lifters - in particular - roller lifters? Jims - Fueling?

It has been mentioned here that if the bike has some miles just go ahead and change out the lifters. Are the roller worthwhile with the CVO 103's?

Mike - did you see my list of parts for the cam replacement?

[DCFIREMANN]

so - along with cams what about the lifters - in particular - roller lifters? Jims - Fueling?

It has been mentioned here that if the bike has some miles just go ahead and change out the lifters. Are the roller worthwhile with the CVO 103's?
Mike - did you see my list of parts for the cam replacement?

The Harley Twin Cam Motor already has roller lifters. I would go with fueling and yes I WOULD CHANGE THEM!

Duane I did not see the list of parts. I will look tonight if I get a chance! It is not a big deal to change them out IF YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TOOLS!!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[Talon]

I think anytime you install new cams you should change lifters.

[porthole]

The Harley Twin Cam Motor already has roller lifters. I would go with fueling and yes I WOULD CHANGE THEM!

Duane I did not see the list of parts. I will look tonight if I get a chance! It is not a big deal to change them out IF YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TOOLS!!!!!

It is in the "this has nothing to do with cams" thread 

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=23113.msg372533#msg372533

[kng103]

Read some info on the Zippers 575 and the Freedom 14's but from what I can gather is these are both more of a mid to top cam.  I am looking for something that will pull tree stumps!!  My RK is an AMS 95", with their head work and TW26G cams.  Over 90 ft/lb of torque @ 2200 rpm.  The dyno on my SEEG is 76 ft/lb torque @ 2500 and then dips a bit.  I'm hoping that the change from the Reinharts will help but I know the stock CVO cams suck.

Will be going with AMS lifters and adj. pushrods.  Probably the PClll over the SERT.



Chris

i am one that really doesn't put to much stock into dyno numbers,
however in your case i will make an exception.
i have seen stock Tc-88" make 76#'s of torque.
even if your seeg ran like crap, i would think it would have at least mid 80's to low 90'S.
if you really want most of your power down low, do the cam change and change over to a 2 into 1 pipe.
you can keep your true duals and get the supertrapp megs, but i hate the way they look.
good luck with your choice!

[efrbc1]

It doesn't run like "crap" but it doesn't run as good as it should.  The dyno sheet was done by the first owner and I'm sure it was untuned.  The bike had a DFO unit on it that has been removed and will be replaced by a SERT.

You bring up a very good point that I have been trying to get some good info on - the exhaust.  Most everyone has Reinharts on their CVO's.  From everything I have read the stock head pipes or a two into one system will produce more bottom end power yet so many people swear by their Reinharts. 

Has anyone actually compared (dyno or seat-of-the-pants) the two.  My tuner likes the Reinharts ("why would you want to take them off?") but I'm still thinkin stock head pipes with the 98B Slip-ons.

Any thoughts out there?

Chris

[AXIL]

sert good,  2 into 1 good, stock touring header pipes bad.  if you look at the design of a 2 into 1 both tubes come together and flow with each other,  more to it than that but you can git the idea.  stock is a 2into 1 with a calibrated air leak off to the left side.  look at wear the two pipes come together and thy don't flow thy collied.  every body has a differant opinion on exhaust systems but i think most will agree with this.     axil

[efrbc1]

But wouldn't the stock head pipes be better for low end power (kind of a 2 into 1) than the Reinharts?  Most dyno charts I've seen show a bit of a dip in torque from  2500 to 3000 with the RHTD's.  Have yet to see a dyno chart with stock head pipe and Slip-ons to see if the dip is present with this set up.

I know dyno charts are just paper so I curious to know if anyone has the 575 cams with a stock head pipe (and Slip-ons) to see how the bike runs.

I have both systems available to use so it will be one or the other.

Chris

[Talon]

But wouldn't the stock head pipes be better for low end power (kind of a 2 into 1) than the Reinharts?  Most dyno charts I've seen show a bit of a dip in torque from  2500 to 3000 with the RHTD's.  Have yet to see a dyno chart with stock head pipe and Slip-ons to see if the dip is present with this set up.

I know dyno charts are just paper so I curious to know if anyone has the 575 cams with a stock head pipe (and Slip-ons) to see how the bike runs.

I have both systems available to use so it will be one or the other.

Chris

This is off the Latus web site, now you have to pay to see their dyno charts, this is a 95", but gives you an idea.

[kng103]

But wouldn't the stock head pipes be better for low end power (kind of a 2 into 1) than the Reinharts?  Most dyno charts I've seen show a bit of a dip in torque from  2500 to 3000 with the RHTD's.  Have yet to see a dyno chart with stock head pipe and Slip-ons to see if the dip is present with this set up.

I know dyno charts are just paper so I curious to know if anyone has the 575 cams with a stock head pipe (and Slip-ons) to see how the bike runs.

I have both systems available to use so it will be one or the other.

Chris

chris,
you would make more power by welding up the left side of the stock crossovers.
it's very tricky when making more power for these v-twins.
you can get it down low to mid range, or you can get it from mid to upper.
most of the guys here who have it all, spent alot of money to do it. myself included. and because i love the look and sound of the true duals, i still have the dip.
change out the dud 253 cams that you have, have it tuned on the dyno and you will be happy no matter what exhaust you are running.

[Talon]

chris,
you would make more power by welding up the left side of the stock crossovers.
it's very tricky when making more power for these v-twins.
you can get it down low to mid range, or you can get it from mid to upper.
most of the guys here who have it all, spent alot of money to do it. myself included. and because i love the look and sound of the true duals, i still have the dip.
change out the dud 253 cams that you have, have it tuned on the dyno and you will be happy no matter what exhaust you are running.

To get a little more top end from the stock pipe you can also do the Y pipe modification, some of the rear down pipe protrudes into the right side rear pipe, you can take the pipe off and grind down this protrusion and gain a little more upper range HP.

[efrbc1]

Nice dyno numbers (and torque curve) with the Slip-ons.  That is what I'm looking for out of this bike.  Now you have me thinking about taking the Reinharts off again......

Ordered the Zippers 575 cams and S&S gear drives and install kit today.  Still shopping for the Feuling Oil Pump.  Is the oil pump a "must do"?  Didn't change the pump on my 95" Road King (head work and TW26G cams also) and no worries there.  Over budget now and the $400 or so for the feuling set up will only make it worse.

Chris

[Talon]

If you changing the pump, you might look at some of the threads for the newer SE billet Cam plate and oil pump. I haven't done it yet, but a few of the guys here that own shops have been using this setup and like it.

[kng103]

Nice dyno numbers (and torque curve) with the Slip-ons.  That is what I'm looking for out of this bike.  Now you have me thinking about taking the Reinharts off again......

Ordered the Zippers 575 cams and S&S gear drives and install kit today.  Still shopping for the Feuling Oil Pump.  Is the oil pump a "must do"?  Didn't change the pump on my 95" Road King (head work and TW26G cams also) and no worries there.  Over budget now and the $400 or so for the feuling set up will only make it worse.

Chris

i dont want to give you something else to think about, but those dyno numbers are from two different bikes.
the comparison means nothing unless its the same bike with the same mods.
leave the pipes alone for now and change the cam.

[mbegalla]

I agree with most here, change the cams not the exhaust, when I installed Rineharts on my 06 FLHTCUSE, I lost alot of bottom end, was not too happy, after all when the bike stock ,I was able to pull the wheels slightly on this heavy bike, I added Thunder monster baffles(Big city Thunder), made a big  improvement, but still not what I was looking for, until I installed the Redshift 575,w/fueling lifters, race pump and plate, I am very happy, pulls stumps, very torquey cam, super midrange, and will pull until 6200(where I have my power commander set up),I dont regulary rev to 6200.....just a note it is a good set up, I think It is the bst choice for a stock 103 (heads and bottom end) I dont think there is a better set up available.

[Rooster]

This is off the Latus web site, now you have to pay to see their dyno charts, this is a 95", but gives you an idea.

One thing about Mike Stegman at Latus Motors if you notice where the rpms start on the chart, they show from 1k on up most only show 2k on up.

[efrbc1]

Haven't heard about the Thunder Monster Baffles.  Do they (replace the std. baffles) fit in the Reinharts?  How about noise louder, quieter, or the same?

Chris

[RedDevil]

Read some info on the Zippers 575 and the Freedom 14's but from what I can gather is these are both more of a mid to top cam.  I am looking for something that will pull tree stumps!!  My RK is an AMS 95", with their head work and TW26G cams.  Over 90 ft/lb of torque @ 2200 rpm.  The dyno on my SEEG is 76 ft/lb torque @ 2500 and then dips a bit.  I'm hoping that the change from the Reinharts will help but I know the stock CVO cams suck.

Will be going with AMS lifters and adj. pushrods.  Probably the PClll over the SERT.

Chris

Chris,
If you got the Rinehart setup with the stepped headers, you will lose some bottom-end torque for some upper-end horsepower. That's due to the nature of the stepped headers.  There are many on here that are running the Zippers 575's and are very happy with them.  Pair that with a good 2-in-1 exhaust like the Vance and Hines Pro Pipe or D&D Fat Cats and you will realize some good "seat-of-the-pants dyno" low to mid-range torque.  If you like the two-pipe look for a bagger, D&D offers a "ghost pipe" for the left side to give the balanced look.  On my SEUC, I'm running V&H true duals (non-stepped) and V&H Ovals.  On the Street Glide, I opted for the single-pipe look and went with the V&H Pro Pipe.  (If you can't tell, I'm kinda partial to Vance and Hines.  )

    

[DCFIREMANN]

Nice dyno numbers (and torque curve) with the Slip-ons.  That is what I'm looking for out of this bike.  Now you have me thinking about taking the Reinharts off again......

Ordered the Zippers 575 cams and S&S gear drives and install kit today.  Still shopping for the Feuling Oil Pump.  Is the oil pump a "must do"?   Didn't change the pump on my 95" Road King (head work and TW26G cams also) and no worries there.  Over budget now and the $400 or so for the feuling set up will only make it worse.

Chris

Yes it is a must do. Believe me it cheap insurance for your motor. It may seem like a lot now but your motor will thank you down the road.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[mbegalla]

I completely agree with dawg!   my 103 is running a power commander maped on a dyno with zippers 575 cam, made just for the 103, fueling race pump, and feuling support plate, lifters and pushrods, it is a gear driven cam..also just to note, running Rinehart true duals with big city thunder monster baffles and Doherty power pac...pure heaven...lots of TQ and approaching 115 HP,,,I love this set up, it is near if not perfect for my FLHTCUSE

[DCFIREMANN]

I completely agree with dawg!   my 103 is running a power commander maped on a dyno with zippers 575 cam, made just for the 103, fueling race pump, and feuling support plate, lifters and pushrods, it is a gear driven cam..also just to note, running Rinehart true duals with big city thunder monster baffles and Doherty power pac...pure heaven...lots of TQ and approaching 115 HP,,,I love this set up, it is near if not perfect for my FLHTCUSE

Those are some good numbers for that motor. It sounds like a great set up, Who did the map?

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[mbegalla]

Hi Chris, the thunder monster baffle, by Big city Thunder(check their website)http://www.bigcitythunder.com/
go in the end of the head pipe in "addition" to the regular baffles, give back some of the torque lost by the Rineharts, also they are not louder, just a deeper , throaty sound.

[mbegalla]

Yes Dawg...those are indeed good numbers, this was the best run on the Dyno, it was extensively tuned on the Dyno with several custom maps (power commander) by Mickeys Rolling Thunder, I will post the scctual Dyno sheets on here soon..best thing is the TQ peaked at 3550 RPM and fell off just slightly to 5000, then drops , HP was on a good curve peaking at 5700 111 on its best run

[DCFIREMANN]

Great, looking forward to seeing the dyno sheets.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[efrbc1]

OK, got all the parts.  Will be doing this over the weekend.  I remember reading about clearance betwen the cam lobes and the cases.  Is this just on the inside (crank side) of the cam?  Also, I'm guessing that you just fit the cam into the inner bearing and measure the clearance between the lobes and the case?  And the clearance should be .060?

Any other tips?

Also looking for a SERT map for a stock motor with SE A/C and Reinharts and a SERT map for the 575 cams, SE A/C and Reinharts.

Thanks

Chris

[efrbc1]

Almost done.  Cams, Gear Drives and Feuling parts went in easily.  I have to re-adjust the pushrods as I have a "tick" in one of the lifters/valves - I always seem to have trouble with this.

Ran it today with a SERT map from the "library" and the Reinharts.  Ran real strong from about 3K on up.  Still looking for better bottom end so I'm going to try the stock headpipes and the 98B SE Slip-ons to see how it runs.  I have until Tuesday to play with the pipes ans then it goes to the tuner.  Hoping for a seat-of the-pants comparison between the two before the dyno tune.

Thanks to all for their "advice"!!!!

Chris

[DCFIREMANN]

Chris good luck on the treadmill. Kepp us posted.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[efrbc1]

Looks like the stock system with the 98B's will stay.  MUCH better pull from 2400 on up.  The Reinharts didn't come on until 3K.  Both pull strong up to 4K - thats as far as I went - holy chit MUCH better than the stock cams.

Looks like I'll have some Reinharts for sale soon!

Chris