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[grandpadoc]

Has anyone seen the new EPA disclosure on the 2012's ?

[SBB]

You could have the first edition of both SE's, air/wet.    Doc

I'm getting Nancy a 2013 SE something.
I guess it's ok if it's wet but thinking I would rather have the 120R.
By then the knowledgeable people on the site will have all the concerns worked out on the 120.

 

SBB

[Dr.D]

The V-Rod and it's motor is not my kind of Harley. I recall years back before I bought a HD that a salesman showed me one of the new V-Rods starting it up and saying listen to this. What a poor job of selling. Sounded like every other Jap bike that I had ever heard. Sucked and no character, hated it and walked off thinking that Harleys used to sound good.

Traditions are becoming less and less important and soon may die. Example of the Cuban cigar manufacture's dropping age old sizes of classic cigars to market to the young(ignorant) and hip(stupid).

I guess it is a sign that I am getting old when I recall the traditions with a fondness. Let HD go ahead and "modernize" with the new generation of Honda knock-offs. Guess the Japs will have the last laugh.

Sure Harleys are slow, hot and heavy with poor hp/ci ratios but we buy them because they are different holding to traditions that root us in loved past. We love to bitch about them and change them to fit us but if an outsider trashes them we wall up and defend the flag of the bar and shield.

[Diamondback]

 

[Master Guns]

The V-Rod and it's motor is not my kind of Harley. I recall years back before I bought a HD that a salesman showed me one of the new V-Rods starting it up and saying listen to this. What a poor job of selling. Sounded like every other Jap bike that I had ever heard. Sucked and no character, hated it and walked off thinking that Harleys used to sound good.

Traditions are becoming less and less important and soon may die. Example of the Cuban cigar manufacture's dropping age old sizes of classic cigars to market to the young(ignorant) and hip(stupid).

I guess it is a sign that I am getting old when I recall the traditions with a fondness. Let HD go ahead and "modernize" with the new generation of Honda knock-offs. Guess the Japs will have the last laugh.

Sure Harleys are slow, hot and heavy with poor hp/ci ratios but we buy them because they are different holding to traditions that root us in loved past. We love to bitch about them and change them to fit us but if an outsider trashes them we wall up and defend the flag of the bar and shield.

Very well put Dr.D!

[Half_Crazy]

The V-Rod and it's motor is not my kind of Harley.

I can't see the 'faithful' embracing the V-Rod motor in a touring bike. Yeah, they make OK horsepower, but the V-Rod is a dog below 5000 RPM and they make like 75 ft/lbs of torque and make it way up the tach. This is all wrong for a heavy bike, loaded with gear and 2 people, heading up a mountain at 6000' elevation... I don't see it being a big seller.

People who are into that sort of "spin it to get it" power would buy a sport-tourer like the Yamaha FJR, Honda ST1300, Ducati ST4, Triumph Sprint GT, or Kawasaki Concours 1400. The joy of big V-twins is GRUNT, especially on a heavy touring bike. If it ain't got the grunt, the typical Harley rider won't like it... and it don't go potato/potato either. In fact, a V-Rod with pipes on it doesn't sound like a Harley at all.

Oh, and motorcycles don't have radiators.

[Half_Crazy]

Sure Harleys are slow, hot and heavy with poor hp/ci ratios but we buy them because they are different holding to traditions that root us in loved past.

I have some stupid questions:
How come S&S can make emissions certified "Harley motors" that make decent power, stay together, and don't burn blisters on your thighs... but Harley Davidson can't?

How come Yamaha can build air cooled/pushrod/single-pin crank engines that run reasonably cool, stay together, and make 90 horespower out of the crate... but Harley Davidson can't?

The company who has been making air-cooled V-twins the longest should be really good at this, right? I can't get my mind around it.

 

[Gecko]

All I know is there's no chance I will buy one for at least three years.  They have a really bad track record on new engines and this one would have a new fluid to leak.

[spydglide]

All I know is there's no chance I will buy one for at least three years.  They have a really bad track record on new engines and this one would have a new fluid to leak.

And what amt. of leaking fluid would be within their approved tolerance so as to not be a warrented/fixable problem?  spyder

[sadunbar]

And what amt. of leaking fluid would be within their approved tolerance so as to not be a warrented/fixable problem?  spyder

Now that's funny...     
 

"They all do that..."

[Half_Crazy]

Now that's funny...     
"They all do that..."

It'd be a pretty hard sell to say "They all leak there" or "That leak is normal".....

[Dr.D]

I have some stupid questions:
How come S&S can make emissions certified "Harley motors" that make decent power, stay together, and don't burn blisters on your thighs... but Harley Davidson can't?

How come Yamaha can build air cooled/pushrod/single-pin crank engines that run reasonably cool, stay together, and make 90 horespower out of the crate... but Harley Davidson can't?

The company who has been making air-cooled V-twins the longest should be really good at this, right? I can't get my mind around it.

 I am not smart enough tom respond to this question.   Neither is any one at HD. Still love the bikes, ain't I sick?

[Half_Crazy]

Still love the bikes, ain't I sick?

I mean, is it that they won't make it happen or they don't care.... or is it that they ALREADY mave a new motor in the works and won't spend money improving on the old one??? I guess time will tell.

[Dr.D]

I mean, is it that they won't make it happen or they don't care.... or is it that they ALREADY have a new motor in the works and won't spend money improving on the old one??? I guess time will tell.

According to rules of human behavior nothing will change until pain forces them. Unfortunately HD sells like crazy so the impetuous for change is to small. Why spend when they don't have to? They just started pushing the new 103 so I doubt they nave a new motor in the works. You are right though time will tell.

[grc]

No reason in the world that they couldn't develop a water cooled 45° V-twin with a common crankpin.  And it's the angle and common crankpin that determines that "sound" so many of you seem to think is so important, not the method of cooling.  The V-Rod sounds different because the V angle is different, not because it has water jackets and a radiator.  And btw, on the subject of sound, if they had water cooling they could run tighter clearances and the water jackets would insulate some of the excessive mechanical noise that causes Harley to run such quiet mufflers to meet overall noise emission standards.  Quiet the mechanicals and you can open up the exhaust.

There will come a time when the current formula of just increasing displacement to maintain the anemic performance levels will come to an end.  The current design can only accomodate so much bore and stroke, and it's getting pretty close to the max.  Right now, they are just treading water (pun intended) but they will eventually have to sink or swim.  I'm still waiting to see if current management has the balls to make the tough choices, or if they just maintain the status quo, take the money, and run. 


Jerry