Topic: Quiet top end (Read 8407 times)

cahdbiker · « **on:** October 13, 2011, 10:51:42 PM »

Hi, I was just wondering if anyone has figured out how to loose the top end noise between 2200-2800. My bike is a 09SEUC and other than that I am happy with the stage one Fulsac Kit performance wise, and the bike in general.I have only about 13,000 miles. I want to keep my stock cams because I like the low end grunt. Anyways sorry to rehash this question but, has anyone gotten rid of the top end noise without changing camshafts, and if so what did you do. I think I have read other posts on this but I would like to hear from someone who has done this without changing cams if possible. Thanks in advance. CAHDBIKER

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #1 on:** October 13, 2011, 11:05:38 PM »

The valve springs are not the quietest design. You could run a 160# beehive
Other than that if the noise has gotten worse over time there is a possibility of a bad lifter(s)
Third and less likely piston slap.

dartman · « **Reply #2 on:** October 14, 2011, 12:22:36 AM »

Quote from: cahdbiker on October 13, 2011, 10:51:42 PM

Hi, I was just wondering if anyone has figured out how to loose the top end noise between 2200-2800. My bike is a 09SEUC and other than that I am happy with the stage one Fulsac Kit performance wise, and the bike in general.I have only about 13,000 miles. I want to keep my stock cams because I like the low end grunt. Anyways sorry to rehash this question but, has anyone gotten rid of the top end noise without changing camshafts, and if so what did you do. I think I have read other posts on this but I would like to hear from someone who has done this without changing cams if possible. Thanks in advance. CAHDBIKER

By design they all clatter somewhat, Some much worse then others, I had a club member try to fix the noise by throwing on parts, Lifters, roller rockers, Camshaft, Pushrods and an assortment of internal parts, and to my ears the clatter got worse just changed frequencey.

trippy · « **Reply #3 on:** October 14, 2011, 05:59:21 AM »

If its not piston slap, S+S lifters with travel limiters, and adjustable pushrods, setup as per the S+S web site following the Note "engine builders often like to shorten the pushrods an extra half a turn, this seems to allow the pumping operation of the lifter to work better".

It worked for me.

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #4 on:** October 14, 2011, 10:17:53 AM »

CompCams 875-1 Lifters, Made in USA travel limited forged steel body, Jegs $14
Smiths push rods or SE 18404-08

tennisman · « **Reply #5 on:** October 14, 2011, 09:28:00 PM »

Quote from: egultrac on October 14, 2011, 01:33:48 AM

Amsoil worked for my bike.

Not mine; Amsoil was no quieter on my 110. I went back to Syn3 and honestly believe it sounds better.
T

murphy · « **Reply #6 on:** October 15, 2011, 02:26:02 AM »

There is s switch just left of the throttle that will make the top end completely silent for you!

HUBBARD · « **Reply #7 on:** October 15, 2011, 07:08:42 AM »

52-5800 RPM is the suggested range. RINEHART or D&D is the suggested exhaust. Top-end noise; GONE! There endeth the lesson.

Later--HUBBARD

FUZZNUTS · « **Reply #8 on:** October 15, 2011, 10:48:28 AM »

Quote from: HUBBARD on October 15, 2011, 07:08:42 AM

52-5800 RPM is the suggested range. RINEHART or D&D is the suggested exhaust. Top-end noise; GONE! There endeth the lesson. Later--HUBBARD

Good one Hubbard..........................

.........................Fuzznuts

Gecko · « **Reply #9 on:** October 15, 2011, 03:58:16 PM »

What I hear from everyone at the MoCo, a silent top end would not be "normal". Does that mean something is wrong?

cahdbiker · « **Reply #10 on:** October 15, 2011, 04:50:21 PM »

murphy, I already tried that and it only works when you hit 100MPH. Thanks for a little humor. Since I am also from Canada I would like to tell you that I was out riding at 11:pm two nights ago and it was still 80 degrees. A lot better than Winnipeg where I used to live. By the way do the mosquitos have to get a pilot's license? Just a little kidding around.CAHDBIKER

Quote from: murphy on October 15, 2011, 02:26:02 AM

There is s switch just left of the throttle that will make the top end completely silent for you!

cahdbiker · « **Reply #11 on:** October 15, 2011, 04:57:24 PM »

Thanks again for your imput. Noise is a little less than new since I run either redline or Amsoil in the engine. I guess if I had really loud exhaust it wouldn't even be an issue, because overall I am happy with the bike. The 1.75 Fulsacs aren't that loud, but I like them. Thanks again. CAHDBIKER

Quote from: Deweysheads on October 13, 2011, 11:05:38 PM

The valve springs are not the quietest design. You could run a 160# beehive
Other than that if the noise has gotten worse over time there is a possibility of a bad lifter(s)
Third and less likely piston slap.

digga25 · « **Reply #12 on:** October 17, 2011, 01:59:36 AM »

I have a 09 serg and i found that turning up the radio helped. But that only worked for a while.Then I changed cams,oil pump,bearings, lifters, push rods,cam plate, now its quiet. Cant leave this simple stuff up to the moco they might screw it up.

cahdbiker · « **Reply #13 on:** October 17, 2011, 03:01:36 PM »

digga25, what amazes me the most is that HD quality control would actually let these engines, as noisy as a lot of the guys on the site say they are including myself plus the winny 5th gear in the 09s, go out to the consumer. You would think the guys that test ride the prototypes would tell quality control that the valve train noise was too loud,. and 5th gear was too noisy and to fix it before they start selling them. I mean this is their top of the line product. I never test rode mine before I bought it, but if I had I would have gotten my deposit back and looked for something else. On one occasion I was parked at a place called "the rock store " a biker hangout in the Santa Monica Mountains. A guy pulls up next to me on a softtail nighttrain with stock exhaust and you couldn't even hear his valve train. If they can make a 96 incher run quiet they should be able to make a 110 run quiet. after all they have been making motorcycles for a long friggen time. Sorry for the long post, but every time I hear the lifters rattle between 2200-2800 I get pissed. CAHDBIKER

Quote from: digga25 on October 17, 2011, 01:59:36 AM

I have a 09 serg and i found that turning up the radio helped. But that only worked for a while.Then I changed cams,oil pump,bearings, lifters, push rods,cam plate, now its quiet. Cant leave this simple stuff up to the moco they might screw it up.

.

mjb765 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 17, 2011, 06:19:30 PM »

Quote from: cahdbiker on October 17, 2011, 03:01:36 PM

digga25, what amazes me the most is that HD quality control would actually let these engines, as noisy as a lot of the guys on the site say they are including myself plus the winny 5th gear in the 09s, go out to the consumer. You would think the guys that test ride the prototypes would tell quality control that the valve train noise was too loud,. and 5th gear was too noisy and to fix it before they start selling them. I mean this is their top of the line product. I never test rode mine before I bought it, but if I had I would have gotten my deposit back and looked for something else. On one occasion I was parked at a place called "the rock store " a biker hangout in the Santa Monica Mountains. A guy pulls up next to me on a softtail nighttrain with stock exhaust and you couldn't even hear his valve train. If they can make a 96 incher run quiet they should be able to make a 110 run quiet. after all they have been making motorcycles for a long friggen time. Sorry for the long post, but every time I hear the lifters rattle between 2200-2800 I get pissed. CAHDBIKER
.

I agree 100%!! Why do we have to put money into a motor to get it to sound right when it should have been right on day 1.

remington007 · « **Reply #15 on:** October 18, 2011, 10:55:51 AM »

Not all 96 inchers are quiet!! My 09 FL was noisey from day one, stock cams. 5th gear is horrible and shock proof heavy does not fix that. Its funny ive ridden stock old evo baggers with over 70k on them, quiet as can be. Engine, tranny and primary all silent!!!

digga25 · « **Reply #16 on:** October 19, 2011, 04:59:04 PM »

I believe that if you change the lifters and pushrods you could quiet the ticking and clattering down. I really wanted to change just the push rods but I figured I may as well change the lifters too. Then I started thinking I should probably do cams and bearings and then..........wtf.

mjb765 · « **Reply #17 on:** October 19, 2011, 06:11:15 PM »

Quote from: digga25 on October 19, 2011, 04:59:04 PM

I believe that if you change the lifters and pushrods you could quiet the ticking and clattering down. I really wanted to change just the push rods but I figured I may as well change the lifters too. Then I started thinking I should probably do cams and bearings and then..........wtf.

Then it turns in to " while we're here, let's do....."

Jim Kennedy · « **Reply #18 on:** October 24, 2011, 11:06:37 AM »

Have been running Motul - Syn-Twin 20/50 synthetic blend for the last 25,000 miles in my 08 CVO Ultra. It is a synthetic blend.

Top end valve train sounds significantly less noisy for about the first 3,500 to 4,000 miles, then [I assume] starts to lose a bit of the viscosity and the valve train sounds begin to creep back in and become more noticeable.

Around then I tend to swap out the oil again and significant sound reduction occurs once more.

I found it possible to get a deal on the stuff when buying by the case from an off-brand bike dealership [have never found a Harley dealer who carries it].

Tried Motul Severe Duty transmission fluid [75/90 if I remember] and the tranny is quieter and shifts like butter - but at $22 each I pucker a little bit when I make the purchase.

TinSpinner · « **Reply #19 on:** October 24, 2011, 12:56:10 PM »

Mine was making some noise and a wise friend of mine, who has ridden Harleys forever, said if I were to put louder pipes on it I wouldn't hear all that noise and not have to worry about it. Something to ponder...

remington007 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 24, 2011, 01:14:43 PM »

Quote from: Deweysheads on October 14, 2011, 10:17:53 AM

CompCams 875-1 Lifters, Made in USA travel limited forged steel body, Jegs $14
Smiths push rods or SE 18404-08

How would you set the pushrods with these lifters seeing they have travel limiters?? I tried jims lifters with travel limiters and they are very noisey!!

bubtrauma · « **Reply #21 on:** October 25, 2011, 09:35:01 AM »

Hey, cahdbiker were you serious about living in Winnipeg at one time.......thats home for me........cool small world.

Bub

cahdbiker · « **Reply #22 on:** October 25, 2011, 02:59:06 PM »

Bubtrama, Yea I used to live in Fort Gary on Farwell Bay. I think my house number was 78 I did a google earth on it a few months ago and the elementary school is still there along with the ice rinks(no ice because picture was taken in summer). but the area south of where I lived which used to be all farmland looks pretty industrial now. My family left in 1963 missed the hockey for a few years. I was 10 years old at the time. Once you live in SO Cal you can never go back. CAHDBIKER

Quote from: bubtrauma on October 25, 2011, 09:35:01 AM

Hey, cahdbiker were you serious about living in Winnipeg at one time.......thats home for me........cool small world.

Bub

bubtrauma · « **Reply #23 on:** October 25, 2011, 04:46:32 PM »

Yer not going to believe this but I lived on Clarence Ave and went to Ralph Maybank School till grade Six.......Wow, I am now 55.

My brother now lives in the same house. Thats COOOOOOL

Bub

cahdbiker · « **Reply #24 on:** October 25, 2011, 07:02:23 PM »

bubtrama, I also went to Ralph Maybanks School until the beginning of 6th grade we left late Sept. or early Oct of 1963. Good area to grow up in at the time. I learned to drive a stick shift in that area when I was 8 or 9 we had a 1949 Mercury Pickup. Thanks for the comment.CAHDBIKER

Quote from: bubtrauma on October 25, 2011, 04:46:32 PM

Yer not going to believe this but I lived on Clarence Ave and went to Ralph Maybank School till grade Six.......Wow, I am now 55.

My brother now lives in the same house. Thats COOOOOOL

Bub

flyer · « **Reply #25 on:** November 03, 2011, 01:54:57 AM »

Hi all, I am looking at quieting my top end also. There is a thread on one of the forums I ran into some time ago that caught my interest. It involved shimming the rocker arm side clearance to something like .004. Don't quote me on that. The poster claimed that it quieted his motor and he got shims from J&P that were for some other application. Sorry for the vague comments but just wanted to let you know the infor is out there.

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #26 on:** November 03, 2011, 10:35:30 PM »

IME the result is underwhelming nonetheless helps a little

cahdbiker · « **Reply #27 on:** December 04, 2011, 09:37:47 AM »

Hi to everyone. I was just wondering if there is anyone on the site with an 09SEUC that has made any changes without getting into the cam chest, removing the rockerbox covers or doing any major work that made the top end quiet between 2200-2800 rpms.I have the Fulsac stage one kit with 1.75 baffles and open air cleaner, stock head pipe without cat.The engine runs great, oil comsumption is absolute minimum based on what I have read on the site. I know what piston slap is so I don't think that is an issue. My local HD tech said that changing to the tapered adustable pushrods, again there is the word, MIGHT CURE IT, He also said that putting in the billet cam plate and getting more oil pressure ,MIGHT CURE IT, but then I have read posts from the guys who are really well versed in this subject that increasing the oils pressure will put too much tension on the cam chain. I am OKAY with riding it the way it is, but If I could get the top end quieter that would a big plus. Just looking for some info before I go to my engine builder, Bennet's Performance, Long Beach Ca. If he can't guarantee a fix I will just live with it. I know I have posted about this before, but I just need some more feedback.Just for the record at idle it is absolutely quiet, hot or cold. Other than that issue I am satisfied with my bike overall. After I take my bike to Eric at Bennett's I will make a post regarding his comments and if I have any work done. CAHDBIKER

2harleys · « **Reply #28 on:** December 04, 2011, 09:45:19 AM »

Quote from: cahdbiker on December 04, 2011, 09:37:47 AM

Hi to everyone. I was just wondering if there is anyone on the site with an 09SEUC that has made any changes without getting into the cam chest, removing the rockerbox covers or doing any major work that made the top end quiet between 2200-2800 rpms.I have the Fulsac stage one kit with 1.75 baffles and open air cleaner, stock head pipe without cat.The engine runs great, oil comsumption is absolute minimum based on what I have read on the site. I know what piston slap is so I don't think that is an issue. My local HD tech said that changing to the tapered adustable pushrods, again there is the word, MIGHT CURE IT, He also said that putting in the billet cam plate and getting more oil pressure ,MIGHT CURE IT, but then I have read posts from the guys who are really well versed in this subject that increasing the oils pressure will put too much tension on the cam chain. I am OKAY with riding it the way it is, but If I could get the top end quieter that would a big plus. Just looking for some info before I go to my engine builder, Bennet's Performance, Long Beach Ca. If he can't guarantee a fix I will just live with it. I know I have posted about this before, but I just need some more feedback.Just for the record at idle it is absolutely quiet, hot or cold. Other than that issue I am satisfied with my bike overall. CAHDBIKER

I put this reply up once before ----

Had that same EXACT rattle that I have been trying to get the MOCO to take care of. Has been there for over one year. After having to three different dealers about this problem, I finally dtropped off at dealer in September and left bike so they could hear noise ( worse when engine cold at start up), they had MOCO rep look at it also. The MOCO finally agreed to have top end torn down. They found the piston clearance was at maximum specs. MOCO gave them authorization to bore .010 oversize and do a "custom fit" on that clearance so they could put it to the low side of the specs. The dealer tried to get the MOCO to authorize a valve job at same time, but that was declined. My dealer stepped up to the plate for me and did the valves at no expense to me, as they felt there could be a problem there also, and did not want to take the chance of putting it back together without seating valves. That turned out to be a smart decision, as they found the valves were not seating in the heads properly and were creating a "click" when seating back down on the heads. The problem is that the MOCO had a 7 week back order on the pistons. I just got the bike back yesterday from a 9 week lay up in the shop. I rode about 100 miles yesterday ------ that noise is eliminated!! My dealer wanted to clearance the pistons themselves, so they could keep that clearance tight. They said on the assembly line there is to much chance of not keeping those critical tolerances tight on each and every set, and with the short skirted pistons, there seems to be many problems out there with piston slap. That must be why the long back order?? They tried to get a new set of jugs from the MOCO before they went to the final stages of boring, but the MOCO denied that one. Dealer wanted to be able to bore a new set of jugs for stock pistons, but had to do the .010 oversize instead. They also stated that they thought the valve problem was most of the noise. Whatever the case is, the noise is gone, and now I can wait for the next problems to arise. They did the brake light switch recall, so that one is taken care of also. I did just contract with Legacy H.D. and extended the warranty for 5 more years after all this happened. If you have this same noise, take it in and MAKE them repair it. My dealer even stepped up to the plate and gave me a 2011 loaner for one weekend so I could do a charity ride , at no cost to me ( that bike did not have the noise, but it was a 103). Their service is superb. I can not say the same thing about the MOCO, as they like to fight you to the end.

ReplyQuoteNotify

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #29 on:** December 04, 2011, 10:27:07 AM »

That turned out to be a smart decision, as they found the valves were not seating in the heads properly and were creating a "click" when seating back down on the heads

I have found new stock heads at .0022 -.0025 clearance on the valve stem to guide. The valves are big and heavy and can't seat properly with that much clearance IMHO, the valves move on the seat even with the best of concentric valve jobs.
The seals are on the second revision and will now take the slop it seems so at least they are not pulling oil down the stems

JCZ · « **Reply #30 on:** December 04, 2011, 10:37:58 AM »

Per the rules for posting...."Only one thread per topic", I merged the new thread you'd started with the existing thread you'd started awhile back.

What does your engine builder "Bennet's Performance" in Long Beach have to say about your top end noise?

As you're learning here and there.....there's a lot of options that may quiet it down and different things have worked for different people here. But I don't think you're going to get a "guarantee" from any builder unless they're rebuilding the entire motor for you....starting with a pinned and welded crank that's been balanced and working up from there.

You have me curious......I'd like to hear what you're referring to. While I've had the lower end done (the crank pinned, welded and balanced), my heads remain totally stock as they came from the factory and I don't have excessive top end noise. Certainly not like I had on an old shovel head once.

And.........I can tell you that since I had the bottom end done, I have the quietest and smoothest running Harley I've ever owned (yes, smoother than the EVOs that I've had). I was quite surprised......I always though when I heard others say that, that it was hocus pokus.

CAPs also had the same work done on his motor and we were talking about how impressed we were. I said "feels like I'm on a wing or a BMW instead of a Harley". CAP's reply......"yea, me too......but we won't tell anybody that".

By the way, before I forget, Jim (hd-dude on this forum) at Metal Dragon in Hayward did both our motors. He's also done nearly all the motor work of other members of this forum from both Nor Cal and So Cal (yep, even done the work on another CVO from Simi Valley!) and there's a reason for that.

Do yourself a huge favor......just pick up the phone and give him a call. Then, when you make arrangements to bring your bike up to him (because you will after you talk to him), let us know so we can arrange a meet n greet with the Nor Cal group.

JCZ · « **Reply #31 on:** December 04, 2011, 10:46:55 AM »

Quote from: 2harleys on December 04, 2011, 09:45:19 AM

I put this reply up once before ----

Had that same EXACT rattle that I have been trying to get the MOCO to take care of. Has been there for over one year. After having to three different dealers about this problem, I finally dtropped off at dealer in September and left bike so they could hear noise ( worse when engine cold at start up), they had MOCO rep look at it also. The MOCO finally agreed to have top end torn down. They found the piston clearance was at maximum specs. MOCO gave them authorization to bore .010 oversize and do a "custom fit" on that clearance so they could put it to the low side of the specs. The dealer tried to get the MOCO to authorize a valve job at same time, but that was declined. My dealer stepped up to the plate for me and did the valves at no expense to me, as they felt there could be a problem there also, and did not want to take the chance of putting it back together without seating valves. That turned out to be a smart decision, as they found the valves were not seating in the heads properly and were creating a "click" when seating back down on the heads. The problem is that the MOCO had a 7 week back order on the pistons. I just got the bike back yesterday from a 9 week lay up in the shop. I rode about 100 miles yesterday ------ that noise is eliminated!! My dealer wanted to clearance the pistons themselves, so they could keep that clearance tight. They said on the assembly line there is to much chance of not keeping those critical tolerances tight on each and every set, and with the short skirted pistons, there seems to be many problems out there with piston slap. That must be why the long back order?? They tried to get a new set of jugs from the MOCO before they went to the final stages of boring, but the MOCO denied that one. Dealer wanted to be able to bore a new set of jugs for stock pistons, but had to do the .010 oversize instead. They also stated that they thought the valve problem was most of the noise. Whatever the case is, the noise is gone, and now I can wait for the next problems to arise. They did the brake light switch recall, so that one is taken care of also. I did just contract with Legacy H.D. and extended the warranty for 5 more years after all this happened. If you have this same noise, take it in and MAKE them repair it. My dealer even stepped up to the plate and gave me a 2011 loaner for one weekend so I could do a charity ride , at no cost to me ( that bike did not have the noise, but it was a 103). Their service is superb. I can not say the same thing about the MOCO, as they like to fight you to the end.

ReplyQuoteNotify

I guess I'd have to agree with your dealership......but that doesn't just apply to pistons and valves. Look at the slopiness on the crank run out. Kind of begs the question "so why are the toleraces not the same for each motor?"

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #32 on:** December 04, 2011, 10:59:30 AM »

If Eric is working on it you are in good hands. Branch is right across the street and they can fix the heads if they deem that necessary. I have seen several cases of out of spec. piston to wall clearance with these 110 motors and the noise is worse cold, that is the key identifier. The Mahle forged pistons are a quality piece but have short narrow cam ground skirts and that is difficult to get to quiet down even with the proper clearance. I have a set and out of curiosity I will have to see if they have an offset pin, which can help to quiet them down a little, I tend to doubt it. The clearance is built into the piston so a true 4" bore will provide the proper clearance automatically.

cahdbiker · « **Reply #33 on:** December 04, 2011, 07:45:30 PM »

Hi Deweysheds Thanks for the imput. I have learned a lot from your posts. At idle my engine is quiet cold or hot it just makes the clattering noise between 2200-2800RPM. If Eric looks at it and sayes he knows what it is I will throw some money at it even though I am still under warranty (I don't know if he is authorized HD Repair, I know he is for S&S) , but if he rides it and sayes leave it alone I will. Thanks againCAHDBIKER

Quote from: Deweysheads on December 04, 2011, 10:59:30 AM

If Eric is working on it you are in good hands. Branch is right across the street and they can fix the heads if they deem that necessary. I have seen several cases of out of spec. piston to wall clearance with these 110 motors and the noise is worse cold, that is the key identifier. The Mahle forged pistons are a quality piece but have short narrow cam ground skirts and that is difficult to get to quiet down even with the proper clearance. I have a set and out of curiosity I will have to see if they have an offset pin, which can help to quiet them down a little, I tend to doubt it. The clearance is built into the piston so a true 4" bore will provide the proper clearance automatically.

JCZ · « **Reply #34 on:** December 04, 2011, 10:31:25 PM »

Quote from: cahdbiker on December 04, 2011, 07:45:30 PM

Hi Deweysheds Thanks for the imput. I have learned a lot from your posts. At idle my engine is quiet cold or hot it just makes the clattering noise between 2200-2800RPM. If Eric looks at it and sayes he knows what it is I will throw some money at it even though I am still under warranty (I don't know if he is authorized HD Repair, I know he is for S&S) , but if he rides it and sayes leave it alone I will. Thanks againCAHDBIKER

On a factory warranty, only a HD dealership is authorized to do factory warranty work. If it's exteded warranty, nearly any independant shop can do it.

In some cases, even when it's under factory warranty......it's better to pay out of pocket and have a reliable independant do the work......in order to get it done "correctly".

cahdbiker · « **Reply #35 on:** December 05, 2011, 11:07:40 PM »

JCZ, I have the 7 year extended warranty with tire coverage. My bike is an 09 and I got it in August of 08 so I guess I am into my extended warranty period now.I still have to go to Bennett's it is 61 miles from my home, not too far, unless you don't like driving on the 405 Freeway.I have talked to Eric about my top end noise. He will take it for a ride and give me his opinion. Then I will post about what happened.CAHDBIKER

Quote from: JCZ on December 04, 2011, 10:31:25 PM

On a factory warranty, only a HD dealership is authorized to do factory warranty work. If it's exteded warranty, nearly any independant shop can do it.

In some cases, even when it's under factory warranty......it's better to pay out of pocket and have a reliable independant do the work......in order to get it done "correctly".

2harleys · « **Reply #36 on:** December 06, 2011, 02:39:03 PM »

Quote from: JCZ on December 04, 2011, 10:46:55 AM

I guess I'd have to agree with your dealership......but that doesn't just apply to pistons and valves. Look at the slopiness on the crank run out. Kind of begs the question "so why are the toleraces not the same for each motor?"

I guess you only have to look as far as where and by whom these parts are being manufactured??

cahdbiker · « **Reply #37 on:** December 06, 2011, 10:06:11 PM »

2harleys, your post makes me wonder who and where the cranks are being put together. If it is here in the U.S.A. and they have a small group of people who assemble cranks, they should somehow be able to be identified to any crank they put together, maybe by vin number, or some code on the crank itself. If people started getting fired for bad workmanship they would have a different attitude about the quality of their personal work. The crank is the heart of the engine. It is the most important part. If a person wants to change to gear drive for example the crank should be true enough so that it would be a non issue. However if someone is doing a build and wants to get 120HP/120 lbs of torque and put that load on a crank originally made to not handle that much power they shouldnt expect it to last very long unless they true,plug and weld it. I am not sticking up for HD because most of the complaints on this post are valid ones, but most of us have at least 40K into our CVOs by the time they roll out of the dealer's parking lot. You would at least expect the crank to be as true as humanly possible. Sorry long post. I am just frustrated with the chronic amount of untrue cranks people on the site are talking about. It is fu--en bullchit on harley's part and they don't seem to give a rats ass. Sorry for the long post. CAHDBIKER

Quote from: 2harleys on December 06, 2011, 02:39:03 PM

I guess you only have to look as far as where and by whom these parts are being manufactured??

bloper123 · « **Reply #38 on:** December 16, 2011, 09:11:44 AM »

I had new cam shafts, new push rods and valves but in at 7500 miles all stock and i dont have eny valve noisy , why just going back with all stock parts stopped the noisy , I dont unerstand but I am a happy camper !!!!!! The reason this was replaced dropped a valve roller hard coat came off...

Midnight Rider · « **Reply #39 on:** December 16, 2011, 12:58:15 PM »

Quote from: cahdbiker on December 06, 2011, 10:06:11 PM

2harleys, your post makes me wonder who and where the cranks are being put together. If it is here in the U.S.A. and they have a small group of people who assemble cranks, they should somehow be able to be identified to any crank they put together, maybe by vin number, or some code on the crank itself. If people started getting fired for bad workmanship they would have a different attitude about the quality of their personal work. The crank is the heart of the engine. It is the most important part. If a person wants to change to gear drive for example the crank should be true enough so that it would be a non issue. However if someone is doing a build and wants to get 120HP/120 lbs of torque and put that load on a crank originally made to not handle that much power they shouldnt expect it to last very long unless they true,plug and weld it. I am not sticking up for HD because most of the complaints on this post are valid ones, but most of us have at least 40K into our CVOs by the time they roll out of the dealer's parking lot. You would at least expect the crank to be as true as humanly possible. Sorry long post. I am just frustrated with the chronic amount of untrue cranks people on the site are talking about. It is fu--en bullchit on harley's part and they don't seem to give a rats ass. Sorry for the long post. CAHDBIKER

Made in China...

They are still made to HD specs, and HD changed the specs dramatically to avoid replacing cranks that did not meet the old specs. Acceptable runout is twice what it was formally.

Z man · « **Reply #40 on:** December 25, 2011, 03:34:38 PM »

Quote from: cahdbiker on December 06, 2011, 10:06:11 PM

2harleys, your post makes me wonder who and where the cranks are being put together. If it is here in the U.S.A. and they have a small group of people who assemble cranks, they should somehow be able to be identified to any crank they put together, maybe by vin number, or some code on the crank itself. If people started getting fired for bad workmanship they would have a different attitude about the quality of their personal work. The crank is the heart of the engine. It is the most important part. If a person wants to change to gear drive for example the crank should be true enough so that it would be a non issue. However if someone is doing a build and wants to get 120HP/120 lbs of torque and put that load on a crank originally made to not handle that much power they shouldnt expect it to last very long unless they true,plug and weld it. I am not sticking up for HD because most of the complaints on this post are valid ones, but most of us have at least 40K into our CVOs by the time they roll out of the dealer's parking lot. You would at least expect the crank to be as true as humanly possible. Sorry long post. I am just frustrated with the chronic amount of untrue cranks people on the site are talking about. It is fu--en bullchit on harley's part and they don't seem to give a rats ass. Sorry for the long post. CAHDBIKER

I could not agree more that MOCO should be more demanding on the crank specs! My 2005 Ultra always vibrated awful at idol. It improved slightly when I made it 96" with a cam, heads and other upgrades. After about 12000 miles the bottom end need repaired. I'm convinced it was bad out of the factory. This bike was my first Harley after riding for many years. Even though it was serviced by a dealer on several occasions, they never said anything about the unbalanced engine and I did not know the difference because I was always told Harley engines vibrated a lot! Some $2000 in repairs later, I have a bad taste for MOCO, even though I love my 2010 CVO.

digga25 · « **Reply #41 on:** January 03, 2012, 03:34:14 PM »

JCZ,when you had the crank done,where did hd dude send it to be done,or did he do it in house.Thanks,Fred.

sadunbar · « **Reply #42 on:** January 03, 2012, 06:32:25 PM »

Quote from: digga25 on January 03, 2012, 03:34:14 PM

JCZ,when you had the crank done,where did hd dude send it to be done,or did he do it in house.Thanks,Fred.

You could ask Jim directly... http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=619

Trapperdog · « **Reply #43 on:** January 03, 2012, 07:10:45 PM »

Quote from: TCnBham on December 16, 2011, 12:58:15 PM

Made in China...

They are still made to HD specs, and HD changed the specs dramatically to avoid replacing cranks that did not meet the old specs. Acceptable runout is twice what it was formally.

Actually I think it's 4 times as much. .003 to .012 Even so, twice as much shouldn't be acceptable

but they're playing the #'s game. Mine was at .008 45K ago. I now have 65K and although she sounds like a freight train, she's still holding together. I can only hope that the oil pump explodes within the 2 years I have left on my extended warranty and not after.

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #44 on:** January 03, 2012, 07:52:22 PM »

First and with due respect what is your source of information that shows the HD crank made in China?

Second regarding warranty
True story, had a new 1981 Camaro that used oil from day 1. dealer ran me through the hoops trying to avoid the issue including having to get tests done with a sealed dipstick and having to pay them to change my oil blah blah blah. A quart every 200 miles. I lived in a remote mountain town 180 miles away from the dealer and I just decided enough was enough. Pulled into a Circle K a mile from the dealer in Phoenix and opened the motor up to just short of floating the valves and held it till it blew. Called a tow truck. New motor no questions.
I am not suggesting anyone follow that lead but just indicative of weaseling around real issues. The better dealers do not work this way and there are some.

grc · « **Reply #45 on:** January 03, 2012, 08:21:43 PM »

Quote from: cahdbiker on December 06, 2011, 10:06:11 PM

2harleys, your post makes me wonder who and where the cranks are being put together. If it is here in the U.S.A. and they have a small group of people who assemble cranks, they should somehow be able to be identified to any crank they put together, maybe by vin number, or some code on the crank itself. If people started getting fired for bad workmanship they would have a different attitude about the quality of their personal work. The crank is the heart of the engine. It is the most important part. If a person wants to change to gear drive for example the crank should be true enough so that it would be a non issue. However if someone is doing a build and wants to get 120HP/120 lbs of torque and put that load on a crank originally made to not handle that much power they shouldnt expect it to last very long unless they true,plug and weld it. I am not sticking up for HD because most of the complaints on this post are valid ones, but most of us have at least 40K into our CVOs by the time they roll out of the dealer's parking lot. You would at least expect the crank to be as true as humanly possible. Sorry long post. I am just frustrated with the chronic amount of untrue cranks people on the site are talking about. It is fu--en bullchit on harley's part and they don't seem to give a rats ass. Sorry for the long post. CAHDBIKER

I believe what you will find is that there is no "individual" person who assembles crankshafts (flywheel assemblies). The individual parts are cast, forged, machined, etc. and then they go to a machine where the two flywheels, the rods, and the crankpin are loaded into position and pressed into one crankshaft assembly by the press. The problem isn't that some hourly assembler isn't tweaking something correctly, the problem is in the design of both the parts and the tooling used to put all the stuff together. Human beings basically just load the parts into the various machines these days, they don't hand assemble and adjust anything. If you want to blame anyone, blame the management and the engineers. The pressed crankpin design was obsolete more than 20 years ago, at least for companies other than H-D. If they refuse to abandon the forked rod, common crankpin design to keep the cylinders in a perfect line fore and aft, they need to address finding a better way to assure the crankpin to flywheel joint integrity. The engines produce more torque, and they are working against a higher load. The regular press fit isn't up to the task, obviously. Even if you get lucky and get one from the factory at .001" runout, there is no guarantee it will stay there for any length of time. They know this, thus the huge increase in runout tolerance to avoid bankrupting themselves replacing cranks under warranty. If you can't or won't make good parts, you change the specs so that all parts are now considered good. They use the same approach on all sorts of things these days, such as the .008" runout spec on brake rotors as compared to an industry standard of .002". I don't know about the rest of you, but when I pay a premium price for a product I don't expect that kind of cheap conniving crap. I might understand it on a third world product that sold for $5k, but Harley's are the highest priced standard motorcycles on the market.

Anywho, don't blame the poor bastards working on the assembly lines. If they are like many of the folks I knew in the auto plants, most of them are just as pizzed about the sorry quality being pushed out the doors as the rest of us. Vent your anger at the folks who are truly responsible; you'll find them sitting in comfy offices counting their bonuses.

Jerry

sadunbar · « **Reply #46 on:** January 03, 2012, 09:08:47 PM »

Quote from: grc on January 03, 2012, 08:21:43 PM

I believe what you will find is that there is no "individual" person who assembles crankshafts (flywheel assemblies). The individual parts are cast, forged, machined, etc. and then they go to a machine where the two flywheels, the rods, and the crankpin are loaded into position and pressed into one crankshaft assembly by the press. The problem isn't that some hourly assembler isn't tweaking something correctly, the problem is in the design of both the parts and the tooling used to put all the stuff together. Human beings basically just load the parts into the various machines these days, they don't hand assemble and adjust anything. If you want to blame anyone, blame the management and the engineers. The pressed crankpin design was obsolete more than 20 years ago, at least for companies other than H-D. If they refuse to abandon the forked rod, common crankpin design to keep the cylinders in a perfect line fore and aft, they need to address finding a better way to assure the crankpin to flywheel joint integrity. The engines produce more torque, and they are working against a higher load. The regular press fit isn't up to the task, obviously. Even if you get lucky and get one from the factory at .001" runout, there is no guarantee it will stay there for any length of time. They know this, thus the huge increase in runout tolerance to avoid bankrupting themselves replacing cranks under warranty. If you can't or won't make good parts, you change the specs so that all parts are now considered good. They use the same approach on all sorts of things these days, such as the .008" runout spec on brake rotors as compared to an industry standard of .002". I don't know about the rest of you, but when I pay a premium price for a product I don't expect that kind of cheap conniving crap. I might understand it on a third world product that sold for $5k, but Harley's are the highest priced standard motorcycles on the market.

Anywho, don't blame the poor bastards working on the assembly lines. If they are like many of the folks I knew in the auto plants, most of them are just as pizzed about the sorry quality being pushed out the doors as the rest of us. Vent your anger at the folks who are truly responsible; you'll find them sitting in comfy offices counting their bonuses.

Jerry

And the bonus of GRC's story is the compensator has proved not able to adequately protect the pressed crankshaft - and even the MOCO agreed with this - so the compensator was redesigned, and now it's no longer a robust design either. End result is a compensator that needs to be replaced about as often as lifters need to be replaced! (oops - lifters - a whole other story)

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #47 on:** January 03, 2012, 11:03:07 PM »

The regular press fit isn't up to the task, obviously

I have pressed them apart and the saying "they don't make them like they used to" definitely applies. The older wheels had more press and took more tonnage to get apart.

Good write-up, I couldn't agree more

skreminegul07 · « **Reply #48 on:** January 04, 2012, 11:02:17 AM »

About a year ago, one of the magazines did an article on the engine production facility (Tomahawk, I beleieve) and told how the engines are on a moving line and at each station, the employee has 30 seconds to add /fit pistons, etc. Knowing this, the assembly must be a sloppy fit so that the line moves on. Each component has a tolerance range male/female, so if you have one of the components at one end of range (small) and the other mating piece at the opposite extreme end, you have a sloppy fit that's still in tolerance. An engine builder is not going to assemble this way. Each part will be hand fitted for the tightest fit and therefore will perform /last longer and quieter.

Just my .02 and one of the first victims of the crank issue.

In the auto indusrty, cars are designed to be built by robots. When you go to repair them, you ask, why the hell is that fastener there? Its because of ease of access for manufacturing, not repairs. But at least the auto industry keeps improving quality, longevity, tolerances, etc.

jagonza1 · « **Reply #49 on:** January 11, 2012, 02:23:42 AM »

I have it too. the problem is the valvespring design harley went with a behive design and it is just noisy ive if you go to a hi performance behive from screaming eagle or the fueling once it wil still be noisy unless you go to something more old school like the andrew or s&s.

Author Topic: Quiet top end (Read 8407 times)