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[Unbalanced]

I dont think the ECM is locked to the TTS, the TTS is locked to my ECM. I'm pretty sure my bike doesnt care which tuner hooks to it.

It does if the fields are locked by the TTS Software which started to happen around the 1.61 time frame.   If the fields are locked then the other program won't be able to access those areas of the ECM.   Call Steve Cole, but I recommend you know what version of the sofware was used to load your map into your bike.

[cvo1717]

IF i hook the black box to the ECM and then to my laptop will i be able to tell any info on the software or could my base map be in the black box(probably a stupid question but i do not know anything about this tuning device)

[Heatwave]

If the TTS software locked out a Bike's ECM from being accessed or modified, how could an HD dealer handle a recall or some other ECM issue that required access? If TTS prevents access to the ECM by other Tuning Devices or a dealer, I can only say I'm very glad I never locked TTS software to my ECM.

[Twolanerider]

CVO1717 it depends on what version of the software you are on when you loaded the map.   you should verify this with Steve Cole, but I believe pre 1.61 you maybe ok, but 1.61 and later I believe lock the ECM and there is not a way I know of to get back to a base map of your bike since it was to be taken from your dongle / software.

Locked in what areas by the latter versions of the software?

[Unbalanced]

If the TTS software locked out a Bike's ECM from being accessed or modified, how could an HD dealer handle a recall or some other ECM issue that required access? If TTS prevents access to the ECM by other Tuning Devices or a dealer, I can only say I'm very glad I never locked TTS software to my ECM.

I am only the messenger responding to the request for information although I too am not a fan of this locking the ECM.  

On the flip side of that though if one followed the directions with the unit they woudlnt have an issue.   That is why you are they tell you to backup your base map so that you can take it in and it can be worked on or changed.   When you put the base .mte file back in the bike it is as if the TTS had never been there.   If for some reason your base cal .mte is lost I believe Steve Cole can fix that for you and put it back to stock.  

Here is a link to Steve Cole's Response to the question.

http://harleytechtalk.org/htt/index.php/topic,59259.msg634472.html#msg634472

ALL ECM's are locked from the factory. Think about it like the front door lock on your house. Each lock has a different key to make it work. Mastertune simply changes the key in simple terms. Once you return it to the Original calibration the Orginal key is put back. It's really that simple. Here at the office like at a lock smith we can put in any key we like.

[Unbalanced]

Locked in what areas by the latter versions of the software?

Don, there are several areas of the ECM and with the 1.61 i believe it is and later they lock several areas of the ECM which prevent access to them.  You would ahve to ask Steve what those specific areas are and his reasoning for the change in doing so.

[Twolanerider]

Don, there are several areas of the ECM and with the 1.61 i believe it is and later they lock several areas of the ECM which prevent access to them.  You would ahve to ask Steve what those specific areas are and his reasoning for the change in doing so.

Had used TTS on a few people's bikes Harry but never had reason to notice this detail or had used earlier revisions and it wasn't there.  It's a significant new concern with the product though. 

There may be good reasons to lockout the ECM (or portions thereof).  But as a user who understands what's being done wouldn't you be concerned for the more laymen users who head out on a summer road trip and breakdown halfway across country only to find out their source of factory service is potentially locked out from system diagnostics or the ability to alter as needed?

At least to me it was also an iffy suggestion at best that TTS suggested as a standard course of action that using their product meant uninstalling its gains and reloading a base map before service.  Thus leaving the potential for the conundrum of having to make an upgraded engine run bad because you're taking it in hoping to diagnose why its running bad...

That was bad enough.  But TTS (potentially) arrogating unto itself access to the OE ECM is a worry too large.  Dealers may not like Thundermax of Power Commander (or whatever).  They may even claim not to know them.  But if push comes to shove the devices are at least open and accessible and allow (or even simplify) basic code reading and other troubleshooting.  What you're suggesting that TTS is now doing is in diametric opposition to that.

[cvo1717]

All i want to know is can i switch to powervision(or any other tuner) without having the stock map saved?
Or do I have to buy a new ECM

[Twolanerider]

All i want to know is can i switch to powervision(or any other tuner) without having the stock map saved?
Or do I have to buy a new ECM?

Sorry I can't help you with an answer.  That the question is even legitimated by the abilities of your TTS would piss me off were I a user though. 

It'd be bad enough if I bought a package with this ability and simply didn't notice and then stupidly installed it not knowing I'd potentially locked myself out of future emergency service or the ability to do as you're considering here without having to buy another ECM.  If I'd been an earlier adopter, however, and had some software upgrade seamlessly slide by without it ever mentioning what it was doing I'd be royally POd though.

[Unbalanced]

All i want to know is can i switch to powervision(or any other tuner) without having the stock map saved?
Or do I have to buy a new ECM

cvo1717 I cant answer that because you can't answer what version you are on or were mapped with.   Supposedly you are able to send your TTS and ECM to Mastertune and they maybe able to help you out and put a base map back in.  If that is the case you could then switch to another vendor.   If it is locked you would be in a position where you had to buy a new ECM.   You will need to call mastertune to find out otherwise you have 2 choices try the new tuner on your bike and see if it works or you will need an ECM / New Tuning product.   without the other information there is no way to tell you which of the choices you are at sorry.

Don, I agree with you on either case and you are correct in that many are pretty upset by this change and it was unexpected.   If you were to break down and dont have the software / map (original map (.mte)) to reload you are potentially screwed on the road or could be.  Or if you have many mods and they want to ride it and check the ecm out you have to tell them not to or potentially harm your motor.  Either situation is hard to swallow.

[cvo1717]

thanks I will call today

[Heatwave]

If TTS now locks up the ECM from others accessing the bike's engine computer, I can only say that it will be a software business model that will come to a quick end. Given the alternatives in the market, I can't imagine that bike owners are going to tolerate a software owner thinking they somehow "own" the physical computer their software is installed on. I know I would be POed if this happened to my ECM and I hadn't been CLEARLY notified that my ECM was locked up by the tuner's software.

[timo482]

in reality you need to start with any tuner from a stone stock position.

in the past hd could flash a ecm back to stock for 40 bux. [i have had that done on used bikes when it was questionable what was in there]

however - what folks forget is its a computer - full on computer - when you change software you have to know what you are doing, even hd locks things to keep a user from blowing up the engine.

to change tuners - from any tuner to any tuner - not starting with a stock tune in the ecm is a recipe for disaster. also remember that all the tuners say right on them that if you mess up the ecm its not there fault - including harleys tuner.

so choose wisely - it can be very expensive to make a mistake and its very expensive each time you change vendor.

the law, the government in general AND the manufacturers are all most interested getting us to leave the ecm alone. hd will do changes for a price - and even with hd - once you use the race tuner - its your baby.

to

[Heatwave]

in reality you need to start with any tuner from a stone stock position.

in the past hd could flash a ecm back to stock for 40 bux. [i have had that done on used bikes when it was questionable what was in there]

however - what folks forget is its a computer - full on computer - when you change software you have to know what you are doing, even hd locks things to keep a user from blowing up the engine.

to change tuners - from any tuner to any tuner - not starting with a stock tune in the ecm is a recipe for disaster. also remember that all the tuners say right on them that if you mess up the ecm its not there fault - including harleys tuner.

so choose wisely - it can be very expensive to make a mistake and its very expensive each time you change vendor.

the law, the government in general AND the manufacturers are all most interested getting us to leave the ecm alone. hd will do changes for a price - and even with hd - once you use the race tuner - its your baby.

to

This is not accurate for all tuners. It might be true with TTS but it is definitely NOT true for SEPST or PowerVision. I've been efi tuning with different software since 2003. I was able to tune my bike using HD's SEPST and then when I switched over to to DynoJet's Powervision it was a non-event. The Powervision simply downloaded the latest tuning file that was on the ECM and started from that map for any additional tuning on the PV. OR I could have started with a completed fresh file using any of the custom maps that come with the Powersvision.

Suggesting that changing  "tuners - any tuners - is a recipe for disaster" is simply an inaccurate statement and not reflective of "any tuner". Perhaps TTS but not all others. In fact with many engine builds, starting with a bone stock map would absolutely be the wrong thing to do and could actually harm a mid-highly modified engine.   

[timo482]

a few years ago a local guy had a bike with sert - he changed the bike and decided to install a power commander

end of engine

obviously the power commander had no way of knowing that it was modifying a already modfied table.

particular combinations of tuners are not going to play well

if the current tuner on a bike has any sort of wide band auto tune - and you want to change tuners - you MUST put it back to stock.

best practice - install your new tune on top of a stock ecm

 - obviously you should not RUN a bike that is huge with a stock ecm - but you SHOULD install the tune with the tuner of your choice on a stock ecm unless you know absolutely that there is not something modified in your ecm that the new tuner will not play well with.

at least three tuners lock portions of the software to prevent engine damage. hd - tts - rev perf.

to