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[eleft36]

So they road your bike...checked nothing...and determined it was fine because "They all do that"...  

Nice....    

Correct, Also the correct milage is 2200.
 The oil was not migrating at that time, just the thumping vibration.
  That was the dealer less than 6 miles away, my guess is more than one test rider.
The dealer the bike was purchased from, 23 miles away, picked up, repaired, serviced and detailed the bike n/c.
Al

[CVOStreetglide]

Thanks for the post Jerry

We are on the same wave length.

I'll try get a update for you this weekend I hope (we are still riding here) and post what I found out. That way there will be a good thread for others who have this problem to follow. 

FWIW: I also talked with several very good Harley mechanics and they agree with the strategy. Sealing the rings seems to vary from bike to bike on the new rides. Dinisour oil seems the help create the right combination so it will happen as it should at least in our case.

Regards

Jerry

[Spiderman]

This still seems somehow not quite right. The 2003 H-D's, had issues with improper torque on the compensator nut. I had my 03 SERK making a hellatious noise one day and discovered the comp bolt was all but backed out. In every case of this I heard of and there were plenty, I never once heard of this "crush" factor which allowed the crankcase seal to back out and leak. So I am sitting here reading all this asking myself if the problem isn't the crank seal and not the loose comp bolt. I don't think we've even begun to get to the bottom of this problem.

B B

[eleft36]

This still seems somehow not quite right. The 2003 H-D's, had issues with improper torque on the compensator nut. I had my 03 SERK making a hellatious noise one day and discovered the comp bolt was all but backed out. In every case of this I heard of and there were plenty, I never once heard of this "crush" factor which allowed the crankcase seal to back out and leak. So I am sitting here reading all this asking myself if the problem isn't the crank seal and not the loose comp bolt. I don't think we've even begun to get to the bottom of this problem.

B B

If it was just the seal why the disappearance of the thumping?
 I'm not sure if it was the bolt loose or the heavy washer dimension or the bike was in production before the change in torque procedure.
Oil certainly migrated.
Al

[CVOStreetglide]

Well the latest on oil consumption for my guy is that he is headed to NY over the Thanksgiving weekend to get the heads looked at along with some other stifuff. The most current thinking is that something is going on in the head area which is causing the loss of oil.  More later.

[CVOStreetglide]

Well the latest on oil consumption for my guy is that he is headed to NY over the Thanksgiving weekend to get the heads looked at along with some other stuff. The most current thinking is that something is going on in the head area which is causing the loss of oil.  More later.

UPDATE 11/30/2010:  A blockage in one of the oil returns was found. It was either locktite or some assembly sealer. It seems this created some back pressure and the oil was forced out of the vent.  After cleanup and some other super secret internal work was done the bike runs like a  top and currently has about 500 miles on it with NO loss of oil whatsoever.  

[cahdbiker]

 Knowing how hot most of these 110 inch motors run I just don't see how it could function with only 1.5 quarts being drained out of the engine. Even if there was another 1/2 qt in the crankcase and filter ( I am not sure if the 110s  drain all the oil out because on my  Evo  at least 20 ounces of dirty oil comes out after I refill the oil tank and let it idle before I install the new filter and top off)( DO NOT DO THIS ON A TWIN CAM BECAUSE THE OIL CIRCULATES DIFFERENT FROM AN EVO AND YOU WILL HURT YOUR ENGINE!!! )That still gets only up to maybe  two quarts total. Even in say 70 degree air temp   wouldn't you think the engine would give some tell tail signs of being low on oil? Like maybe oil light coming on, low oil pressure, smell, lifters banging or something?  I find this thread very interesting because a transmission shop tried to pull a fast one on me once by showing me  a few drops of oil and so called "debris" that was in the bottom of my pan after he serviced the trans which worked perfectly. Naturally I told him "nice try" (not a direct quote). Also what does "WAG" stand for? Thanks CAHDBIKER


quote author=grc link=topic=55722.msg802398#msg802398 date=1288835142]
Rather than use the WAG method, and possibly besmirch the reputation of a dealership or independent without just cause, may I suggest just going forward with whatever brand of oil you like and check the level every 100 miles or so.  If the bike is using oil at an excessive rate, it should become obvious rather quickly.  And just because a compression test and leakdown test comes back good, and the plugs aren't black and oily, doesn't mean the engine can't be burning oil.  For instance, valve stem oil seals haven't been terribly reliable at H-D and will allow oil to pass without affecting compression or leakdown testing.  And these engines run so hot that you won't necessarily see black oily deposits on the plugs like we did in the old days, at least until the consumption rate gets much worse than 2000 miles per quart (6000 miles, roughly 3 quarts unaccounted for).

Even though most vehicles these days don't require constant verification of the motor oil level (I haven't owned a car in decades that needed oil added between changes), it's still a good idea with a Harley to get into the habit of checking it on a regular basis.  And in case you wonder why the 1 quart the indy drained out was so nasty looking and thick, that's what severe overheating does to motor oil.  With only 1 quart or so circulating in an engine that normally has 3.5 to 4.0 quarts, the oil will get much hotter.  Even the best synthetics can't handle severe overheating for extended periods of time.


Jerry


[/quote]

[albertcountyrebel]

had mine checked again after only 2100 klms put on since last oil change and she was down 1 1/2 litres...pulled her apart and after removing valve springs-the valves fell out on there own...dried valve seals, lifters were marked as was the cams..replaced cams and lifters along with valve seals....2nd time this occured---did the same last winter. so i switched over to 20w50. regular oils....

[grc]

....................................................................
 Also what does "WAG" stand for? Thanks CAHDBIKER
.....................................................................

The "WAG" method is where folks just take a "Wild Azzed Guess".  Tend to see a lot of that at typical Harley shops, much easier than performing a little diagnosis first.  My reason for including that in my earlier post was that the only "fact" given was that 3 quarts of oil seemed to be missing after riding 5,000 miles, and immediately folks jumped to conclusions without any other "facts".  For instance, accusing the indy mechanic of pulling a scam.  The first thoughts seemed to be either the dealership that did the previous service, or the indy who did the most recent service, had to have done something wrong or shady.  My first thought was, how do you ride a Harley 5000 miles and never check the engine oil level?


Jerry

[DESERTBEAR54]

Good Point!!!!

[dejavo]

I didn't notice if anyone asked if the oil level had been checked immeadately after the oil change. It would not be the first time that a fu**** (distracted ) tech forgot to put all the oil in.

[Talon]

Rather than use the WAG method, and possibly besmirch the reputation of a dealership or independent without just cause, may I suggest just going forward with whatever brand of oil you like and check the level every 100 miles or so.  If the bike is using oil at an excessive rate, it should become obvious rather quickly.  And just because a compression test and leakdown test comes back good, and the plugs aren't black and oily, doesn't mean the engine can't be burning oil.  For instance, valve stem oil seals haven't been terribly reliable at H-D and will allow oil to pass without affecting compression or leakdown testing.  And these engines run so hot that you won't necessarily see black oily deposits on the plugs like we did in the old days, at least until the consumption rate gets much worse than 2000 miles per quart (6000 miles, roughly 3 quarts unaccounted for).

Even though most vehicles these days don't require constant verification of the motor oil level (I haven't owned a car in decades that needed oil added between changes), it's still a good idea with a Harley to get into the habit of checking it on a regular basis.  And in case you wonder why the 1 quart the indy drained out was so nasty looking and thick, that's what severe overheating does to motor oil.  With only 1 quart or so circulating in an engine that normally has 3.5 to 4.0 quarts, the oil will get much hotter.  Even the best synthetics can't handle severe overheating for extended periods of time.


Jerry

I use SWAG Sophisticated Wild Ass Guess! If you were burning it that fast you should see it out the pipe when you get on it and would be all over the end of the pipe also, if you were leaking it out of the bike you of course see it on the bike and on the ground. So to me the options are simple, it's either in the primary, or it was never there.

Craig

[shortdog]

Gentlemen,
I found out through experience this spring and summer that the MoCo does in fact have a "protocol" for tracking oil consumption. When this procedure is started the mileage is recorded, oil is topped off and the fill neck and drain plug are "sealed". The rider then goes on his merry way and returns to the dealership at pre-determined intervals for them to check and top off if necessary. When the consumption exceeds a quart in a thousand miles (up to this point it is acceptable by MoCo standards) they will start looking for the oil. They will check the primary for migration and the crankcase for sumping and also the PCV system to see if oil is going through the breather. In my case they trusted me to check my oil myself and come by when it was down. After five quarts in about 3500 miles they installed new heads. They then had to pull the covers and clearance the boxes due to retainer interference. First trip out put 4 quarts of oil in in 2500 miles, also changed plugs. At this point I got the Factory Rep involved. They put new seals in the new heads and I agreed to " ride it like I stole it" for 2500 miles and not add any oil. After 850 mile the dipstick indicated 2 quarts low and they put it on the dyno  and ran it at 3800 in 6th for ten minutes, pulled the crank plug and only got 2 oz.(they were looking for 8 oz. or more. Back on dyno for ten minutes in 4th at 5000, got 2 oz. again. After that I
was blessed with a new crate motor from the MoCo.
The ultimate point I'm trying to make is they never could determine where the oil was going and the motor was sent to Milwuakee to the engineers and they will never tell anyone what they found. If you are concerned with oil consumption you will have to follow the protocol to get any results from the dealership, factory or ESP.
BTW my old motor had 29,000 miles when it was changed. Oil use was documented from day one with valve seals replaced three times.
Sorry to be so longwinded,
Shortdog