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Eqcons

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Re: CB question
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2007, 07:48:57 AM »

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Jim,
It's not the modulation scheme that causes "skip".  That's propagation off of ionosphere which is caused by what frequency band you're in.  Depending on whether it's day or night, skip will be different.  HF is great at bouncing, of skipping, off of the ionosphere to give it distance and make it a good long-haul band.  The higher you go in frequency, the more likely it is to go through the ionoshphere and not bounce back to earth.  Typically, FM broadcasts are done in the VHF band, which does not skip well and is good for a more line-of-sight type reception only (typically out to about 40-50 miles).  Also, AM broadcasts are typically done in the MF band and although not as good as HF for skip, will skip more at night (when the e and f layer of the ionosphere merge), but typically follow the curve of the earth better.  Higher line of sight frequencies will multi-path or bounce off of buildings, causing delays in multiple signals to be recieved by the receiver.   Sometimes you'll get what seems like skip out of VHF and UHF, but what that is is called "ducting".  This is a phenomenum in the atmoshere that creates a virtual waveguide that the signal will travel in and causes it to travel extraordinary distances.  Down off the coast of Florida and in the Middle East ducting is fairly common and it it's not uncommon for you to hear a UHF channel travel 150 miles, when typically UHF is no more than, based on antenna height, 15-20 miles.
cheers  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

I know all of that, Red.  However, you're missing the point - why is there no 27MHz FM skip? I promise you, it is different!  You are giving all the correct info for the difference between the normal uses of AM in the HF band, as opposed FM in the VHF band, but you're missing the big picture - we are talking about using FM in the 11m band, NOT in VHF or UHF.  When did you last encounter skip from an FM CB transmission?  You didn't!  Ducting, very very occasionally, yes, but not skip, ever!  I'm sure back in the day you heard lots of skip from Europe, when all was AM.  Now it's all FM, and on the exact same channel frequencies as the US - do you hear any?  Nope.  And that's not just because of lows in susnspot activity.  FM in the HF band does not skip, and along with that, it does not perform like AM either. It is much more line of sight than AM at the same frequency, and is thus more affected by obstacles and terrain than AM.  I worked with both 27MHz AM and FM for years, honest!  :)

Jim

Jim


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BaronStump

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Re: CB question
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2007, 08:43:58 AM »

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:)

I used to work in that area when I was a youngster.  Not far from SHAPE as I recall.   Pretty industrialised, but of course steeped in the history of the Great War, so lots to see and do.

Jim
I'm actually assigned to SHAPE, live out in the country closer to Brussels, all rolling hills farmland.  It's only about 16 miles from work and have been able to ride to work all but about 6 days in the last 2+ months.  Little rain and wind; can't wait for the days to get longer!!
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Re: CB question
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2007, 08:56:05 AM »

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I'm actually assigned to SHAPE, live out in the country closer to Brussels, all rolling hills farmland.  It's only about 16 miles from work and have been able to ride to work all but about 6 days in the last 2+ months.  Little rain and wind; can't wait for the days to get longer!!

I guessed you must be at SHAPE, Baron. You must be up towards Waterloo then?  Have you been to the battlefiled centre there? Quite interesting!  You're lucky getting to ride so much at this time of year - I'm jealous!  I guess you must have missed the big storms of the last couple of days then?  So did we I'm glad to say - no wind here in Scotland.  But we have had weeks and weeks of torrential rain. I can't wait for the days to get longer too!

As you're here in Europe - will you still be here in June?  If so, do you plan to go to the European HOG rally in Spain?  We could meet for a beer if you are.

Jim
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BaronStump

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Re: CB question
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2007, 09:08:45 AM »

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I guessed you must be at SHAPE, Baron. You must be up towards Waterloo then?  Have you been to the battlefiled centre there? Quite interesting!  You're lucky getting to ride so much at this time of year - I'm jealous!  I guess you must have missed the big storms of the last couple of days then?  So did we I'm glad to say - no wind here in Scotland.  But we have had weeks and weeks of torrential rain. I can't wait for the days to get longer too!

As you're here in Europe - will you still be here in June?  If so, do you plan to go to the European HOG rally in Spain?  We could meet for a beer if you are.

Jim
Got the winds yesterday and was stupid enough to ride home in them; couple of gusts greater than 70 lts about put me off the road.  Haven't been to Waterloo yet; just got the bike in from Virginia the first week of Nov.  Picked it up while in the states for a couple of months between here and Korea.  Thanks to VAEagle, he got me to the right dealer (Bayside HD) and they did a great delivery, all my mods, and even shipped some backorder parts to me here in Belgium without a problem.  Best HD shop (sales & mx) I've dealt with in 25 years and 5 bikes.

I'll be here the next 2 yrs at least; would love to know more about the HOG rally in Spain!!  Maybe even gather some folks for the ride and meet in variou locations on the way...wife and I would make a trip out it (she rides as well).  Always looking for events to get us out across Europe.  Thank for the note -Baron Stump
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Re: CB question
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2007, 09:36:40 AM »

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I'll be here the next 2 yrs at least; would love to know more about the HOG rally in Spain!!  Maybe even gather some folks for the ride and meet in variou locations on the way...wife and I would make a trip out it (she rides as well).  Always looking for events to get us out across Europe.  Thank for the note -Baron Stump

There will be LOTS of people heading to the rally in Spain, so you should make a point of it!

http://www.harley-davidson.com/ex/hog/template.asp?bmLocale=en_US&fnc=evcal&loc=mevent/evcal

And

http://viajeslevante.com/harley/harley.htm

for accommodation & suggested routes.  It would be a good idea to join your local HOG chapter while you are there - they will have groups going for sure!

Jim
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Re: CB question
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2007, 01:38:30 PM »

Sorry that we didn't get together when you were in the area BaronStump!
I know you had lot's to do in a short time.
Glad things worked out for you at Bayside H-D they are good people. 8-)

Ride safe. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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Re: CB question
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2007, 04:57:10 PM »

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I know all of that, Red.  However, you're missing the point - why is there no 27MHz FM skip? I promise you, it is different!  You are giving all the correct info for the difference between the normal uses of AM in the HF band, as opposed FM in the VHF band, but you're missing the big picture - we are talking about using FM in the 11m band, NOT in VHF or UHF.  When did you last encounter skip from an FM CB transmission?  You didn't!  Ducting, very very occasionally, yes, but not skip, ever!  I'm sure back in the day you heard lots of skip from Europe, when all was AM.  Now it's all FM, and on the exact same channel frequencies as the US - do you hear any?  Nope.  And that's not just because of lows in susnspot activity.  FM in the HF band does not skip, and along with that, it does not perform like AM either. It is much more line of sight than AM at the same frequency, and is thus more affected by obstacles and terrain than AM.  I worked with both 27MHz AM and FM for years, honest!  :)

Jim

Jim


Jim,
I've never heard FM CB skip, because all of our CBs in the states are AM and an AM receiver cannot demodulate an FM signal.  I'll have to take your word on it that they don't skip over there.  As an example, here's a link about Amatuer radio operaters operating in the HF 10 meter band (29 MHz) and hearing FM skip from distances almost 1300 miles away.  http://www.radioreference.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-39814.html The "hammers" do it all the time.  
cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red
« Last Edit: January 19, 2007, 05:10:49 PM by RedDevil »
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Eqcons

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Re: CB question
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2007, 09:23:10 PM »

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Jim,
I've never heard FM CB skip, because all of our CBs in the states are AM and an AM receiver cannot demodulate an FM signal.  I'll have to take your word on it that they don't skip over there.  As an example, here's a link about Amatuer radio operaters operating in the HF 10 meter band (29 MHz) and hearing FM skip from distances almost 1300 miles away.  http://www.radioreference.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-39814.html The "hammers" do it all the time.  
cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

Sorry Red - that was stoopid of me!   [smiley=oops.gif] All of my (non HD of course) CBs were AM and FM 120 channel - I stupidly forgot that even if the skip was there, you wouldn't be receiving it anyway! We used the (then illegal) FM as well as AM, as did a lot of skip shooters, to get away from the skip!  But I promise you - FM on the 11m band is very different from AM on the 11m band!

Jim
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Re: CB question
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2007, 09:17:09 AM »

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Sorry Red - that was stoopid of me!   [smiley=oops.gif] All of my (non HD of course) CBs were AM and FM 120 channel - I stupidly forgot that even if the skip was there, you wouldn't be receiving it anyway! We used the (then illegal) FM as well as AM, as did a lot of skip shooters, to get away from the skip!  But I promise you - FM on the 11m band is very different from AM on the 11m band!

Jim
Jim,
No need to apologize.  :)  We're all in this togther and we all learn from each other's comments.  I just hope that you've been able to figure out the antenna issues over there and are able to keep that SWR down.  I still can't believe that the factory would mount antennas that aren't tuned properly.  Almost everyone that has done SWR checks have stated that their factory whips gave a 3:1 SWR!!!! [smiley=huh2.gif].  That is totally unsatisfactory.  Ride safe and happy motoring.  ;)
Cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red
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Eqcons

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Re: CB question
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2007, 02:07:37 PM »

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Jim,
No need to apologize.  :)  We're all in this togther and we all learn from each other's comments.  I just hope that you've been able to figure out the antenna issues over there and are able to keep that SWR down.  I still can't believe that the factory would mount antennas that aren't tuned properly.  Almost everyone that has done SWR checks have stated that their factory whips gave a 3:1 SWR!!!! [smiley=huh2.gif].  That is totally unsatisfactory.  Ride safe and happy motoring.  ;)
Cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

 :) Thanks Red.  Yes, it's astonishing that the factory ones aren't tuned as part of the PDI if nothing else!  (And we wonder why we don't get decent range....) Well at least we know that the CB is robust, otherwise we'd see a lot of blown ones!

Looking forward to hearing how you get on with SWR and these short antennae!  [smiley=drink.gif]

Cheers,

Jim
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BaronStump

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Re: CB question
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2007, 02:11:10 PM »

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Sorry that we didn't get together when you were in the area BaronStump!
I know you had lot's to do in a short time.
Glad things worked out for you at Bayside H-D they are good people. 8-)

Ride safe. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
Eagle,
Yep, just too short of time back in the states.  Thanks for all your help and advice; got to get my lighting improved now.  Like the threads on the rear LED and the suggestions on the different bulbs for the front.  Looking at the new Corbin saddles also.  Hope to ride with you on my return!
Keep the Shiny Side Up,
Baron Stump
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