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[Para Bellum]

maybe they will just ban motorcycles

Hey, don't give them any ideas!  You know they'd like to.

[grc]

Things HD couldn't copy without screwing it up: (feel free to add your own)
EFI
ABS
GPS
XM radio
Hydraulic clutch
Chrome parts
Paint
Hydraulic lifters
Cam bearings

Don't forget Electronic Throttle Control.  That one nearly got some people killed when it failed in traffic, and was just one more time Harley was able to avoid a safety recall by pretending it didn't exist.  The auto folks learned a long time ago that some mission critical electrical connections need to be made with upgraded parts.  Things like airbags, ETC, ABS, PCM (Powertrain Control Module), etc.  So what does Harley do?  They used ill suited connectors on the wiring for the ETC that lead to many failures.  The truly sad part is that they use automotive suppliers for most of their electrical stuff, so these things shouldn't be unknown.  Delphi has been their go to supplier for instance, and they definitely know how it has to be done in the auto business.  I have a feeling Harley just purposely ignores recommendations from folks who know better and tell them to go with the cheap stuff.

Jerry

[FlaHeatWave]

Yea, I was wondering when (not if) this EPA crackdown would come about... Could be HD trying to move all the leftover '15s & 16s off the floor??? Cut into the aftermarket slice of the pie???
 
One has to realize that Harley has stretched the envelope of air cooled technology way beyond anyone else to keep the legacy (architecture) alive... The Japanese and the Germans could start with a clean sheet of paper as they had no legacy to keep alive... All of them had to go to full liquid cooling These days, Indian's "legacy" is some curves on the fenders, a logo, and a name...

The legacy designs of the modern muscle cars are just some sheet metal and plastic styling cues, they're a lot different underneath. Don't get me wrong, we are in a Renaissance Period with the automobile, the performance, comfort, safety, efficiency, durability, of today's vehicles was unimaginable in my youth, never thought I would see cars drive themselves in my lifetime... all with much less emissions. Full liquid cooled 4 stroke engines is the common denominator, except for all electric... 

There was some mention of Harley TBW issues... well my 3/4 ton pickup had the throttle control module at the pedal go bad, no warning signs, just intermittently would not go above idle when starting off from a stop, (yea, some crimp marks on the seat!) Module cost $900.00!!! so even things (the automotive world) that all the major economies of the world revolve around aren't perfect... Motorcycles are a fly on an elephant's ass compared...     

One of the things that attracted me to Harleys 40 years ago (when they couldn't give 'em away)  was the visceral sensations, the vibration, the noise, the looks, riding a work of art, not something out of a Judge Dredd movie, and yes the legacy and the history, like something that has a life of it's own, Harley's all have their own personality... and to a large extent, the MoCo has kept that in tact... up to now...

Some folks would call me a "kool-aide drinker", and that's ok with me, due to a lot of hard work, a little luck, and being blessed, I can drink anything I want...

Yea Jerry, I'm sure your Cherry is bone stock... mine is too...

As far as the C.A.V.E folks... the petroleum lobbies are much stronger than the Coal lobbies... I'd take Coal over fracking any day! Now that OPEC has dropped the price of oil and kept it down, how many "patriotic ads about energy independence" do you see these days??? I know first hand what an oil spill is (Deepwater Horizon), I never heard of a Coal Spill???

Now don't get me wrong, I'm (mostly) pro- EPA... I'm a Land Guy, have seen my share of SuperFund Sites, and worked in areas where the Erie Canal used to catch fire...
 

'Gotta quote 'Ol Hub on this one...

There endeth the Lesson...

[SciFiGuy]

HD has agreed to stop selling the SE Pro Tuner as part of their settlement with the US Government on air pollution.  What affects will this have on the motor upgrade kit like the 117 ci .

As already stated this suit from the EPA only applies only to the S-E "Pro" Super Tuner Kit and does not affect the sell or use of the S-E Street Performance Tuner Kit which is needed for the 117 C.I. upgrade (had mine done three months ago) and is legal in all 50 states.

From the H-D website

"These Screamin' Eagle® products are 50-state street-legal for sale and use on all vehicles, including those that are pollution controlled. Complies with the requirements of 40 CFR Part 86, subparts E and F.
Note
Street Tuner permits limited tunability within the emissions range to optimize drivability without compromising emission levels. It also features expanded tuning options outside the emissions range to optimize performance."

[JCZ]

They start with the deep pockets first but they'll probably go after the after market tuners next. 

[Para Bellum]

Delphi has been their go to supplier for instance, and they definitely know how it has to be done in the auto business.  I have a feeling Harley just purposely ignores recommendations from folks who know better and tell them to go with the cheap stuff.
Jerry

I can just hear HD's bean counters in the meeting with the Delphi guys: "You're on Generation 10 of the    ___ system, and they cost $10 each?  We'll take Generation 1 at $0.40 each."

Delphi: "But Gen 1 isn't waterproof.  Won't that be dangerous on a motorcycle?"

HD: "No problem; the riders can just pull over to the shoulder if it ever happens.  We'll sell a bunch of roadside assistance, and we'll make even more money.  Same with the extended "warranty"--mo' money.  And if they don't buy the ESP...well, the dealers love that $100+ per hour labor charge and the 200% mark-up on parts.  Now you know why we want the Gen 1, but that secrecy agreement you signed prohibits you from saying anything."

Delphi guys, after HD leaves: "What do you think the Harley riders would do if they ever found out how MoCo screws them?"  2nd Delphi guy: "Probably be a riot in Milwaukee.  Hey, didn't that just happen?"  3rd guy: "Yeah, I'm gonna sell my HD stock, and I'm not buying a Harley 'til they get a whole new business model."  All 3 together: "Damrite!"

[FLTRCVO]

With the EPA hammering the Motor Company to the tune of 15 mil, how will we be tuning the new motors effectively? I don't see Harley sitting by with their ass still burning letting other after market vendors be able to tune the new motors without some sort of ramifications.

[iski]

Aftermarket tuner companies are already working on it.  Expect some new tuners will be on the market over the next few months.  And unless you are in a state that checks emissions, considering one will not be an issue.

[FLTRCVO]

Aftermarket tuner companies are already working on it.  Expect some new tuners will be on the market over the next few months.  And unless you are in a state that checks emissions, considering one will not be an issue.

No doubt, more concerned with the footprint with warranty work, for a non Harley tuner now that Harley took the 15 mil hit, I can see Harley putting in software to detect alien tuners into their diagnostic programs now.

[iski]

No doubt, more concerned with the footprint with warranty work, for a non Harley tuner now that Harley took the 15 mil hit, I can see Harley putting in software to detect alien tuners into their diagnostic programs now.

Maybe, but do not think so. After market tuner guys smell a bonanza, they are doing happy dances methinks.

EPA is a gaggle of over regulating USA business killing bureaucrats and leads the parade of running companies offshore to do business.  So anything they do to harm USA business is not surprising, they truly do not GAS about workers or capitalization domestically. A real shame.

Will see what happens, the states with emissions tests would be the easiest for the EPA to gestapo the regs.  Trouble would be when a 2017 or later bike from a non emission state is sold to a buyer in an emission state.  Bad juju then more likely.  Orphaned bikes are a sad thing to consider.....

[Jbbrown73]

Looks like the EPA has made SE Super Tuners illegal. Harley has to pay a multi-million dollar fine and offer to buy back every Super Tuner ever sold! My dealer told me he fears they'll remove the software from their dyno too.

Smart dealers will just move their dyno to a new building down the road and open up an "independent" shop under a new name. That's what I would do!

[grc]

Smart dealers will just move their dyno to a new building down the road and open up an "independent" shop under a new name. That's what I would do!

Hopefully if they do that they will also hire full time fully qualified people to do the tuning.  Unfortunately most Harley dealerships didn't do that when the dyno was part of the dealership, thus all the complaints about lousy tunes.  At least for now and the near future, the guy using the tool is a lot more important than the tool.

I'm not convinced the feds won't eventually go after the aftermarket folks as well.  They really couldn't in the past while they allowed a big corporation like Harley to spit in their eye and flagrantly violate the law.  It will probably come down to budgets and appropriations as to if or when this might happen.

Jerry

[Jbbrown73]

Hopefully if they do that they will also hire full time fully qualified people to do the tuning.  Unfortunately most Harley dealerships didn't do that when the dyno was part of the dealership, thus all the complaints about lousy tunes.  At least for now and the near future, the guy using the tool is a lot more important than the tool.

That is absolute truth!!!

[FLTRCVO]

Hopefully if they do that they will also hire full time fully qualified people to do the tuning.  Unfortunately most Harley dealerships didn't do that when the dyno was part of the dealership, thus all the complaints about lousy tunes.  At least for now and the near future, the guy using the tool is a lot more important than the tool.

I'm not convinced the feds won't eventually go after the aftermarket folks as well.  They really couldn't in the past while they allowed a big corporation like Harley to spit in their eye and flagrantly violate the law.  It will probably come down to budgets and appropriations as to if or when this might happen.

Jerry

That is what I hinting at; Harley isn't going to sit on their ass while the after market folks feast on Harley's lost revenue due to the Pro Race Tuner being gone. How are we going to pay the so called price; purchase a non Harley Tuner it voids your warranty; my Pro Race Tuner on my 2009 CVO didn't void my warranty; If I'm Harley I'm having a program developed if it doesn't already exist to search for aftermarket tuners when running diagnostics for repairs and warranty work, because if I can't have my cake why should anyone else. Can you blame the Motor Company?

[Unbalanced]

I'd expect the street legal tuner to be a little expanded.   Much in the same way the tuners are made for california and the jap bikes.