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Author Topic: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes  (Read 3675 times)

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Twolanerider

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2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
« on: September 01, 2018, 10:32:47 PM »

Only comparison I've been able to find so far is a parts manual side-by-side.  That should be instructive though.  Any new part or altered part should show a new part number or revision.  No other way to trust that old and new inventory aren't mixed.  That's not a gold standard of inventory management it's a minimum standard to avoid screw-ups.

That being so if Mother Harley is adhering to this basic minimum standard all the talk of new engines and specialty machining crankcase improvements for 2019 appear to be a wee bit bupkus.  At least if you believe the parts manuals.

Just finished doing a side-by-side of 2018 and 2019 parts diagrams for comparable CVO touring bikes. Exploded views of the engine cases and all their associated parts.  Everything was the same.

Found one difference between 2018 and 2019 in the cam chest.  It's not the oil pump.  Same part number for oil pumps (62400182) for both years.  Only difference between bottom ends in 2018 versus 2019 is a different oil pump cover with 2019 going to a cover that includes a new seal that didn't exist in 2018.  The seal isn't a revision of a seal used the prior year.  Instead it is a completely new addition to the cam chest that appears to add an additional sealing surface/attempt outboard of the original o-ring (which is the same).  This of course suggest the cover part is new for whatever machining is necessary to accept that seal.  The new 2019 part number for this is 62400206.

Everything else in the bottom end appears to stay the same though.  It was admittedly cursory look but if one can trust revisions by part numbers all the promises/suggestions that were ostensibly given to the unfortunate souls with failed or multiply failed bikes seem to be just a bit... um... overblown.

Hopefully the new seal is an end-all and be-all of the problem.  Much like poking a hole in the primary and calling the fluid transfer problem fixed I'll prefer to see the fleet collect some real miles before taking the MoCo's word for it.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2018, 11:13:32 PM by Twolanerider »
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Twolanerider

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Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2018, 10:41:02 PM »

...and speaking to those primary housing changes.  Comparison of 2018 versus 2019 parts breakdowns for a comparable bike from each year show zero differences in primary housings and associated parts. No hole poked in it.  No new vent.  No change at all.  Perhaps a change made in the sealing area where fluid might migrate between trans and primary?  Haven't looked there yet.  But parts manual for 2019 shows no atmospheric vent on a new bike.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2018, 11:14:00 PM by Twolanerider »
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2002FXDWG3

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Re: 2018-2019 engine comparison with all the changes to solve sumping
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2018, 10:55:29 PM »

Great analysis!  I saw some new '19s and looked very clisely for any primary venting A-B with the '18s.  Couldn't identify any changes.
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Twolanerider

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Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2018, 10:59:42 PM »

Had to look more while I was at it.  Did find one change in the tranny that would speak to the oil transfer problem.  Honestly (if it works) I'd be much more sanguine with both its simplicity and its potential effect than I would be with just poking a hole in the primary case. 

They've added an oil slinger (in Harley tongue a "deflector") inboard of input shaft.  Whether it solves the problem will of course only be judged by miles on the fleet.  Just like with the new seal in the cam chest I'll keep my finger crossed that this is an effective solution.  It does at least have a ring of logic to the behavior that's been witnessed.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2018, 11:12:44 PM by Twolanerider »
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2002FXDWG3

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Re: 2018-2019 engine comparison with all the changes to solve sumping
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2018, 11:13:23 PM »

Another great catch.  Of course that isn't visible externally, and if it works, I'd say the better solution.

Of course asking the dealer about any '19 design changes for the sumping, transmission oil transfer, or compensator issues.  "The what?"
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Twolanerider

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Re: 2018-2019 engine comparison with all the changes to solve sumping
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2018, 11:15:58 PM »

Another great catch.  Of course that isn't visible externally, and if it works, I'd say the better solution.

Of course asking the dealer about any '19 design changes for the sumping, transmission oil transfer, or compensator issues.  "The what?"

Amen to that.  The proof of the pudding is always in the eating.  So the proof the sumping or fluid transfers will only be proved in the longer duration riding.  We can only hope.
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Lu

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Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2018, 12:33:08 AM »

thanks for the info 2lane.  I guess we’ll know if these add-ons/fixes hold in a few weeks.
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Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2018, 08:39:46 AM »

Thank you for the information, great find.
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Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2018, 05:16:58 PM »

Thanks for looking into these issues, 2LR.  Great detective work.  Question about the sumping aspect:  Is there any evidence and/or logic that indicates the addition of the seal (with associated oil pump cover) would reduce the sumping?  Or is this another HD sure-hope-this-works band-aid?
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CVOStreetglide

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Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2018, 06:21:27 PM »

Many thanks for all of your detail sweat work.

It just doesn’t seem feasible that a simple “O” ring would fix these critical motor and crank case issues.

In the meantime there haven’t been any new or repeat issues reported on the site for a couple of months now.   

As you said time will tell for the 2018’s and the 2019’s.

Regards

Jerry
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 06:24:24 AM by CVOStreetglide »
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Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2018, 09:49:16 PM »

If a manufacturer wants to hide a change they've made in order to avoid lawsuits, it is real easy to make the change but not document it via a part number change.  They no longer have that alpha suffix they used to add to the part numbers in the old days to signify a change to the part, so it's not as simple to detect changes as it used to be.  Even if the part number for the cases didn't change, that doesn't prove there was no change.

I guess we will see how they respond to future failures of the 2017 and 2018 M8's.  Will they replace the cases, or just add a cam chest seal?  How about if and when they have the first failure of a 2019?  Or does that new seal require machining to the case, thus the claim previously about a change to the 2019 cases?  Stay tuned.

Btw, it's strange how they heavily implied there was a change made to the 2019 cases when they were dealing with Heatwave's multiple failures, including telling him his last engine replacement had 2019 cases.  If an added seal in the cam chest was "the fix", why tell him they changed the cases?  Excuse me for being cynical, but Harley has given me and many others a lot of reasons over the years to be distrusting.

Jerry
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 09:53:08 PM by grc »
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Twolanerider

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Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2018, 01:30:23 AM »

If a manufacturer wants to hide a change they've made in order to avoid lawsuits, it is real easy to make the change but not document it via a part number change.  They no longer have that alpha suffix they used to add to the part numbers in the old days to signify a change to the part, so it's not as simple to detect changes as it used to be.  Even if the part number for the cases didn't change, that doesn't prove there was no change.

I guess we will see how they respond to future failures of the 2017 and 2018 M8's.  Will they replace the cases, or just add a cam chest seal?  How about if and when they have the first failure of a 2019?  Or does that new seal require machining to the case, thus the claim previously about a change to the 2019 cases?  Stay tuned.

Btw, it's strange how they heavily implied there was a change made to the 2019 cases when they were dealing with Heatwave's multiple failures, including telling him his last engine replacement had 2019 cases.  If an added seal in the cam chest was "the fix", why tell him they changed the cases?  Excuse me for being cynical, but Harley has given me and many others a lot of reasons over the years to be distrusting.

Jerry

One can't help but wonder about running changes not publicly documented.  That is such a craps shoot though.  So easy to get old inventory on a shelf that some parts picker has no clue is "old" and ship it out or use it. 

Using the crankcases as an example; the number for the cases stays the same.  Granted, a dealer should not have old stock of parts that require a VIN derivative.  But what if there is manufacturer stock that only waits for those VIN stampings?  Use that when there is more to the difference than the oil pump cover and its new seal and the job is not repaired.  It's just such a gamble not to document parts changes with revisions or new numbers.  I hope Harley isn't that duplicitous/careless.

Still not even close to trusting anything until the fleet collects miles.....
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Spiked Olive

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Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2018, 09:09:27 PM »

Interesting information.

I have a 2017 CVO with the 114. Just had the 10k service done last Saturday. I have had zero issues to date. The tech spoke with me when he got back from the test ride and said my bike is perfect. I asked him if he checked for sumping still and he said no, not unless the owner complains of symptoms related. He said they had a few early on and it is a non-issue at this point. Don't shot the messenger, simply sharing what I was told.
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laylonlor

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Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2018, 06:29:10 PM »

thanks for your time  on this  :mango:
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Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2018, 07:17:52 PM »

Great work with the parts update/difference find.  :2vrolijk_21:
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