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Author Topic: Watch out Harley here comes Indian  (Read 2400 times)

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muddypaws

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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2019, 10:58:10 AM »

I've always thought HD dropped the ball when they didn't utilize the Revolution engine in other models - retune that powerplant for a bagger and the MoCo could be leading the way, rather than now playing catch up. 
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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2019, 01:13:52 PM »



I hope it’s the other way around
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scottt

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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2019, 02:17:50 PM »

I've always thought HD dropped the ball when they didn't utilize the Revolution engine in other models - retune that powerplant for a bagger and the MoCo could be leading the way, rather than now playing catch up.
Totally agree! Had Harley done as you suggested I would have bought one. After 28 years of buying nothing but Harley's I bought a BMW K1600B or Bagger. Amazing motorcycle.

Harley needs to upgrade the touring line frame, suspension and powerplant to become competitive. Brand loyalty can't  be the number one reason for buying a Harley. Hopefully the MotoCompany comes around soon. Harley has the best brand name, dealership availability, parts and service access. Now they just need to spend some R&D on the touring line. The Livewire is nothing but a nitch market.

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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2019, 02:37:15 PM »

Harley stopped innovating and their products are inferior to the competition in every respect.  Their dealer experience and handling of issues is on par with Comcast.
 Unless they make some very deep changes things will continue to decline.
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RoadTrip

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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2019, 08:59:03 AM »

Totally agree! Had Harley done as you suggested I would have bought one. After 28 years of buying nothing but Harley's I bought a BMW K1600B or Bagger. Amazing motorcycle.

Harley needs to upgrade the touring line frame, suspension and powerplant to become competitive. Brand loyalty can't  be the number one reason for buying a Harley. Hopefully the MotoCompany comes around soon. Harley has the best brand name, dealership availability, parts and service access. Now they just need to spend some R&D on the touring line. The Livewire is nothing but a nitch market.

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I agree that the H-D Touring family is falling behind the competition. But I would argue that H-D’s investment in this product line will be measured for the foreseeable future because the demand for heavy motorcycles is in double digit decline. I anticipate the Touring family will be collapsed into maybe 3-4 models within the next 8-10 years.
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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2019, 10:47:41 AM »

My understanding is the engines in the "Street" models is a chopped Revolution engine. 1 cylinder. I believe Harley is working to make the Revolution the replacement for the M8. They can only go so far with the current design and maintain EPA compliance changes.
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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2019, 11:37:05 AM »

the street is a v-twin.  there is no '1 cylinder' model.  even the 500 was a twin.
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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2019, 12:25:25 PM »

One change Harley needs to make is the way they upsell HP. Outside of Indian, competitive touring bikes come with one powerplant. You don't need to spend thousands for strong performance.

The entire touring line should come with the strongest, best powerplant available, from the factory.

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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2019, 01:48:23 PM »

If you cannot produce a strong, reliable engine today you will soon not matter.

IMHO Indian is doing things right.
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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2019, 08:43:37 PM »

Think about this, when the new Indian Challenger comes out, its an all new Frame, an all new engine an all new bike.  It will have more power than the CVO for a lower price point.  The Harley will be on an 11 year old Frame design.  Also the Harley will cost more if you opt for the new traction control that is optional on the 2020 Harley bike.  It is Standard on the Indian, as selectable ride modes which Harley does not have.  If it follows suit of the other Indian models it can have a 100 watt sound system and Keyless ignition with power locks, have to go CVO to get that with Harley.  Indian will have a height adjustable windshield, harely does not.

Harley is making it harder and harder to justify the extra money, for less.  Now Harley is removing features like the Heal shifter, flat black top of the road glide dash, vents that no longer close and so on. 

Harleys big plus is it has the largest dealer network and the most parts and accessories of any bike be it from the MoCo or the aftermarket.
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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2019, 06:32:29 PM »

So true Dave
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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2019, 08:47:32 PM »

They should resurrect the Nova project from the 80s and carry on with a V-4 design. That engine was also designed by Porsche and one have if it became the Revolution engine Harley has to start thinking outside the box because it’s been th same old stuff for many years.
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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2019, 10:47:48 AM »

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iski

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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2019, 12:34:03 PM »

After adding options - a nice feature but looked like they were added at full price? - price went from $28,200 to $34,500.  No allowance for take off parts?  Or just charging full price from the factory because they can?  Doesn't matter to me.  The Indian RG is not anything I would want & am not a fan.   
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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2019, 07:33:19 PM »

After adding options - a nice feature but looked like they were added at full price? - price went from $28,200 to $34,500.  No allowance for take off parts?  Or just charging full price from the factory because they can?  Doesn't matter to me.  The Indian RG is not anything I would want & am not a fan.   
That's the Darkhorse edition.

Here's Indian's website. Looks like entry level is at $22k.

https://www.indianmotorcycle.com/en-us/challenger/
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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2019, 08:54:50 PM »

After adding options - a nice feature but looked like they were added at full price? - price went from $28,200 to $34,500.  No allowance for take off parts?  Or just charging full price from the factory because they can?  Doesn't matter to me.  The Indian RG is not anything I would want & am not a fan.
I'm not sure I understand your post.  You took the Challenger MSRP and then started adding items from their parts catalog and are surprised at how much those add-ons increased the cost.  Then you mention no discount for take off parts.  I've never seen a feature on a manufacturer's site that allowed a discount for turning in stock parts.  Ive never had this offered by any dealer either...just a discount on new parts.  What would a dealer do with take off parts (stock a/c, slip-ons, etc), there's no market for them.

Just curious, if you went to the HD website, looked up the cost of a RGS ($27,299), added the features you selected for the Challenger, would the website show a discount for turning in replaced parts?  Also, what would the cost of the RG be if you added the same items you selected for the Challenger?  Let's make sure we're comparing apples to apples.
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Robmay

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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2019, 10:29:38 PM »

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iski

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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2019, 11:33:00 PM »

I'm not sure I understand your post.  You took the Challenger MSRP and then started adding items from their parts catalog and are surprised at how much those add-ons increased the cost.  Then you mention no discount for take off parts.  I've never seen a feature on a manufacturer's site that allowed a discount for turning in stock parts.  Ive never had this offered by any dealer either...just a discount on new parts.  What would a dealer do with take off parts (stock a/c, slip-ons, etc), there's no market for them.

Just curious, if you went to the HD website, looked up the cost of a RGS ($27,299), added the features you selected for the Challenger, would the website show a discount for turning in replaced parts?  Also, what would the cost of the RG be if you added the same items you selected for the Challenger?  Let's make sure we're comparing apples to apples.

These are not "take off parts" because they are added on the initial order of the MC.  Not taken off if they are OE parts added with the website "Build" feature.

Not surprised at the cost, I ride with several friends who have Indians, they are at HD level and higher as to accessory cost.  Just made a comment above on how they do their parts additions - a nice option - and the way they do this it's a very profitable one for them as well.  Indian took HD's prices and decided + was better. 

As to what the cost of a HD is compared to an Indian RG it cannot be apples to apples - the 2 bikes have different features, are different bikes, and as a rider am not interested in purchasing either one. 

This remains an HD website, Indians have their own websites and are filled with their fans.  To me Indian is a curiosity and their value as I see it is to hopefully push HD as a competitor.  I do not like the styling or the ride or anything on any Indian enough to consider a purchase.  Others feel differently, to each their own.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2019, 11:57:24 PM by iski »
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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2019, 08:06:59 AM »

The Challenger is miles ahead of the road glide which it copied from HD  :huepfenlol2: this bike alone should bring HD's design staff heads out their ass. Hate to see the price of their version of The Challenger.

I'm waiting for one to hit my local dealer for an extended test ride, not just around the block, and see for myself. I predict it's a winner BWTFDIK.  :drink:

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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2019, 09:15:21 AM »

It will be more interesting to see one in person.  No matter whether you like it or not, it's a big step.  So far I like the look and specifications sheet.  Hope it does well for Indian and is used to revitalize something in the MoCo besides the Livewire... ;D
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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2019, 09:23:12 AM »



If you think it looks familiar, you’re probably right.  There’s your 1st take-off part.


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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2019, 09:40:43 AM »

These are not "take off parts" because they are added on the initial order of the MC.  Not taken off if they are OE parts added with the website "Build" feature.

Not surprised at the cost, I ride with several friends who have Indians, they are at HD level and higher as to accessory cost.  Just made a comment above on how they do their parts additions - a nice option - and the way they do this it's a very profitable one for them as well.  Indian took HD's prices and decided + was better. 

As to what the cost of a HD is compared to an Indian RG it cannot be apples to apples - the 2 bikes have different features, are different bikes, and as a rider am not interested in purchasing either one. 

This remains an HD website, Indians have their own websites and are filled with their fans.  To me Indian is a curiosity and their value as I see it is to hopefully push HD as a competitor.  I do not like the styling or the ride or anything on any Indian enough to consider a purchase.  Others feel differently, to each their own.
From what you've posted, are you misreading the Indian website?  You can't order or buy a new Indian with any of the parts shown on their website.  Just like HD, you'd have to buy the stock bike and then get the add-ons separately.  Regarding your other comments, the reason this thread is of interest on a HD site is because IM is HD's main competition now.  Go to an IM or BMW website and you'll see discussion about HDs.  Nevertheless, this new Challenger should be a wake-up call for HD to step up their game ASAP...they have nothing, including CVOs, that compete with the Challenger, FTR, or even the Scout.  This is Indian's third water-cooled bike with 100+ HP...they seem to be leading the way on domestic bike manufacturing.  The rumor is IM will be introducing a naked sport bike and adventure model based on the FTR platform...tick tock HD, tick tock...       
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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2019, 12:02:08 PM »

From what you've posted, are you misreading the Indian website?  You can't order or buy a new Indian with any of the parts shown on their website.  Just like HD, you'd have to buy the stock bike and then get the add-ons separately.  Regarding your other comments, the reason this thread is of interest on a HD site is because IM is HD's main competition now.  Go to an IM or BMW website and you'll see discussion about HDs.  Nevertheless, this new Challenger should be a wake-up call for HD to step up their game ASAP...they have nothing, including CVOs, that compete with the Challenger, FTR, or even the Scout.  This is Indian's third water-cooled bike with 100+ HP...they seem to be leading the way on domestic bike manufacturing.  The rumor is IM will be introducing a naked sport bike and adventure model based on the FTR platform...tick tock HD, tick tock...     

When I saw the Build option I figured Indian was offering factory customization - something that a lot of folks have wished was available for a long time.   My mistake, if they offered that they could really boost sales #s.

Anyway, have said here & elsewhere that I am interested in Indian - as a competitor to HD but not as a customer.  I already visit other websites and am well aware of the fanboy status that Indian is enjoying as well as the usual suspects who enjoy dumping on Harley - the dumping which Harley has earned & continues to earn by it's flatfootedness in the marketplace.  I have test ridden Indians & looked them over carefully.  Pass.

As to HD stepping up their game - I expect they will do something but looking at the MoCos latest moves am not sure if that will be a step up or a step down.  They seem to be mostly clueless at the corporate level & as long as the same Inspector Gadgets remain in charge there I would expect that cluelessness to continue.  No reason to see why HD will not continue to lose sales and give up market share & Indian will get their slice of that pie as will others.
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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2019, 08:58:19 PM »

It will be more interesting to see one in person.  No matter whether you like it or not, it's a big step.  So far I like the look and specifications sheet.  Hope it does well for Indian and is used to revitalize something in the MoCo besides the Livewire... ;D
I will definitely give the Challenger a very good look when its time to trade my CVO road glide.  If its as good as its spec sheet, its a winner. 

That said I have been looking hard at the FTR 1200S.  Its quite the bike. 
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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2019, 10:16:56 AM »

Real rear wheel horsepower and torque off Jett Tuning’s dyno, 113.3 lb-ft of torque at 3,500 rpm and 107.6 horsepower at 5,600 rpm, with redline at 6,500 rpm
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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2019, 12:56:46 PM »

I will definitely give the Challenger a very good look when its time to trade my CVO road glide.  If its as good as its spec sheet, its a winner. 

That said I have been looking hard at the FTR 1200S.  Its quite the bike.

Very nice looker in person (and sounds good with different pipes, too) but too tall in the saddle for my short legs.  Vickie likes the dark red/charcoal color combo... ;D
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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2019, 09:34:24 AM »

I will definitely give the Challenger a very good look when its time to trade my CVO road glide.  If its as good as its spec sheet, its a winner. 

That said I have been looking hard at the FTR 1200S.  Its quite the bike.

The FTR is a nice, well engineered bike.  The only two minor concerns are the seat height (it's taller than similar bikes, so those 5'9 or shorter may not be able to flat foot the bike while seated) and if you're going to push the twisties, a set of street tires would be better than the faux flat tracker tires that come standard.  I just bought a Ducati Monster 1200S, if the FTR is anything like that, strap on...you're in for one heck of a fast ride.
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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2019, 03:30:36 PM »

Interesting new video. The Challenger has a governor at 112 MPH. I wonder why?



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iski

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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2019, 04:31:03 PM »

Interesting new video. The Challenger has a governor at 112 MPH. I wonder why?



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My guess is tires - speed rating.
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scottt

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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2019, 05:45:31 PM »

My guess is tires - speed rating.
Why wouldn't they install tires with higher speed ratings, like those on the K1600? Could it be that Indian went with tire tread life over a higher speed limiter? They claim Metzler (sp?) designed a tire just for this bike.

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lyn.husen

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Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2019, 06:08:14 PM »

I’ve done 110 on a bike before, and that’s fast enough for me, what’s another 2mph anyways. I’m pretty much fine cruising between 85 - 90.
Anyway I’m sure Dynojet will come out with a Powervision for it
« Last Edit: November 03, 2019, 09:00:17 PM by lyn.husen »
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Mark

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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2019, 07:06:09 PM »

Speed limiters...this is where engineering and lawyers collide.  By comparison, BMW's K1600 Grand America has a limiter set at 101.
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scottt

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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2019, 08:15:15 PM »

Speed limiters...this is where engineering and lawyers collide.  By comparison, BMW's K1600 Grand America has a limiter set at 101.
Yes, the BMW K1600B or Bagger is limited at 135 MPH. The difference being the top case or tour pak. The BMW Bagger is most like the new Challenger, no top case. Just a lot more HP.

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FLSTFI Dave

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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2019, 08:41:49 PM »

The 18 and 19 CVO 117 are speed limited to 115 mph. 
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scottt

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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2019, 09:25:32 PM »

The 18 and 19 CVO 117 are speed limited to 115 mph.
Wonder what the speed rating is on the 117 CVO? Do many owners remove the speed limiters? It's not that many wish to ride at those speeds, it's more about passing. Say your on a long straight stretch of road passing a 18 wheeler that's doing 85, you want to pass quickly and do so without concern of hitting a limiter. I mentioned this because I've been there.

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Threephase

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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2019, 11:12:05 AM »

I used the powervision to raise/remove the speed limiter on my 2017 Streetglide SE. but, the speedometer only has up to 120 mph on the dial.  My sphincter speed limiter is good with 120mph or less anyways. I start to think of everything that could go wrong. A car pulls out from a side road, a deer runs out, a car passing as they crest a hill and they are in MY lane ( experienced that one already) and engine blowing up and locking up. And any of the aforementioned listed things make me remember that at nearly 60 years old, I do not "bounce" like I used to. But not ready to give up riding, below 120 mph that is, just yet.
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scottt

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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2019, 12:27:23 PM »

I used the powervision to raise/remove the speed limiter on my 2017 Streetglide SE. but, the speedometer only has up to 120 mph on the dial.  My sphincter speed limiter is good with 120mph or less anyways. I start to think of everything that could go wrong. A car pulls out from a side road, a deer runs out, a car passing as they crest a hill and they are in MY lane ( experienced that one already) and engine blowing up and locking up. And any of the aforementioned listed things make me remember that at nearly 60 years old, I do not "bounce" like I used to. But not ready to give up riding, below 120 mph that is, just yet.
I'm with ya, 68+ myself. Think what you did makes sense. Engine should not blow so long as your not near red line. Speed doesn't matter so long as you pass quickly and stay below red line. Ride safe and enjoy!

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iski

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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2019, 03:08:56 PM »

Why wouldn't they install tires with higher speed ratings, like those on the K1600? Could it be that Indian went with tire tread life over a higher speed limiter? They claim Metzler (sp?) designed a tire just for this bike.

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Equipment safe operating limits, wind tunnel tests , & several other reasons - safety - as to why speed is limited & tires was just my first guess.  Our society loves to litigate, and if a bike has no upper speed limiter, but has equipment (tires, etc.) that do not allow for "safe" operation at that speed limit, then the lawyers could litigate when there is an accident.  Off road.  I could be wrong, but years ago the only thing I remember that had a speed limiter was a governor on our lawn mower.  Nowadays cars that will perform - I have had a few - are speed limited as well.  In the 60s & 70s no such thing that I recall but we did blow up a few motors.
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Haird

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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2019, 03:14:48 PM »

Equipment safe operating limits, wind tunnel tests , & several other reasons - safety - as to why speed is limited & tires was just my first guess.  Our society loves to litigate, and if a bike has no upper speed limiter, but has equipment (tires, etc.) that do not allow for "safe" operation at that speed limit, then the lawyers could litigate when there is an accident.  Off road.  I could be wrong, but years ago the only thing I remember that had a speed limiter was a governor on our lawn mower.  Nowadays cars that will perform - I have had a few - are speed limited as well.  In the 60s & 70s no such thing that I recall but we did blow up a few motors.

Boy, ain't dat the troof... >:(

Off the subject a bit but was at Seafood Silver's Long John Shop getting something for Vickie's lunch and saw a sign on the drive-thru window informing folks that fish and shelfish were cooked inside and that there may be a chance your food could come in contact with those items...well, duh...lawyers run this country.

Sorry for the side bar but it's iski's fault as his post reminded me of it.  So, sue him... :huepfenlol2:
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FLSTFI Dave

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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2019, 08:42:13 PM »

Equipment safe operating limits, wind tunnel tests , & several other reasons - safety - as to why speed is limited & tires was just my first guess.  Our society loves to litigate, and if a bike has no upper speed limiter, but has equipment (tires, etc.) that do not allow for "safe" operation at that speed limit, then the lawyers could litigate when there is an accident.  Off road.  I could be wrong, but years ago the only thing I remember that had a speed limiter was a governor on our lawn mower.  Nowadays cars that will perform - I have had a few - are speed limited as well.  In the 60s & 70s no such thing that I recall but we did blow up a few motors.
Not all American cars that will perform have speed limiters.  My 14 Stingray had not speed limiter, other than me.  My 18 Grand Sport has no speed limiter.  However both these cars came with warnings that the tires are not good below 40 degrees out.  They are speed rated summer only tires.  The 19 ZR1 out of the factory will run 212 mph. 

Tires is the biggest reason for limiting speeds.  Not sure what the Dunlop American elites on my CVO King or my CVO Road glide are rated for.  I know my build king will run a lot faster than the road glide will, as its governed to 115 mph, my king is not.  That said its rare either bike is over 100mph.  The king does get run up to 100 as quick as possible and then shut down frequently. 

I have had 14 and 18 covettes over 150, but that was on a track.  Stuff happens really fast at those speeds.  The would be no time to react on a public street.
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iski

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Re: Watch out Harley here comes Indian
« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2019, 11:36:40 PM »

Boy, ain't dat the troof... >:(

Off the subject a bit but was at Seafood Silver's Long John Shop getting something for Vickie's lunch and saw a sign on the drive-thru window informing folks that fish and shelfish were cooked inside and that there may be a chance your food could come in contact with those items...well, duh...lawyers run this country.

Sorry for the side bar but it's iski's fault as his post reminded me of it.  So, sue him... :huepfenlol2:

 ;D ;D

TV lawyers - "Do you have _________________?  If you do, we will sue, and you will get rich, rich, RICH!"  We live in a society of lawsuit happy idiots.  TV lawyers added to that exponentially.  Insurance costs increased exponentially as a result. My grandkids grew up with lousy public park playground equipment compared to what I had, lots & lots of other examples.   Rest of rant - iski shakes his fist at the sky & yells, nobody listens.  Except my neighbor, who sues me for disturbing his peace. 

I may have been exposed to too many tree nuts, since the packaging equipment comes into contact with them.   :o

 ;D ;D
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