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[Chief]

What I'm looking to do is come up with an AFR Command Map like the one below. The cells I have listed, are the Power Commander tuning cells, and the AFR values I have are what I would think would be good.



Comments?

Chief

[Ironhorse]

What I'm looking to do is come up with an AFR Command Map like the one below. The cells I have listed, are the Power Commander tuning cells, and the AFR values I have are what I would think would be good.



Comments?

Chief

Chief,

I like it. Is that a representation of the ideal MAP? If so, then I am richer in the lower TPS settings than I should be.

[Chief]

Chief,

I like it. Is that a representation of the ideal MAP? If so, then I am richer in the lower TPS settings than I should be.

I seriously doubt it. This is just what I drummed up in my head. I'm hoping, that with input from the experts here, we can come up with one. We'll have to fight and argue over just what is ideal, but I think we can come up with something that is satisfactory.

Chief

[Unbalanced]

Chief,

I think your being to aggressive for the fuel at 0-30 percent throttle.    If you don't care about stopping for gas  or possibly fouling plugs with traffic idles then your probably ok or if you were only talking about doing WOT dyno runs your probably ok, but I think you might be a little light for peak numbers at 80 percent throttle and 100 percent throttle.

At the higher RPM's your fuel should be increasing not decreasing so you would start at 13.8 to 1 and move down to 13.4 to one at the higher RPM's not the reverse.

If you were starting at a scratch point as I have already stated I would look at a starting point of 13.7 across the board and 13.4 at 80 percent and 13.0 at 100 percent and possibly more fuel depending on whats in the bike / flow etc at the upper end.   

The information I got was that if your using the race tuner the cells that are 14.6 (map 84 RED Color) are denoted as the closed loop settings that the ECM takes over when your under 30 percent throttle.   I have not been able to prove / disprove this, but it made sense.    If harley is running at 14.6 at idle and your at 13.4 while they are to lean you are I think to rich for a non WOT daily run.

The other thing you will want to look at is once you get the tables the way you want them and the Volumetrics to back it up, you will want to go to 80 percent throttle and 100 percent throttle and play with the timing a little bit to get peak performance out of the engine.    You will get pinging / knocking if you go to far so when you play with those numbers please be sure to be reserved and make changes only 1 increment at a time so your able to tell the net effect or what caused a problem also make sure the bike is at operating temps to be sure you get no pinging when you do this.   

 

[Hoist!]

I seriously doubt it. This is just what I drummed up in my head. I'm hoping, that with input from the experts here, we can come up with one. We'll have to fight and argue over just what is ideal, but I think we can come up with something that is satisfactory.

Chief

Since every engine is different, I don't see how setting up these cells blindly, just based on AFR, would be the ideal map. I would still think the only way to optimize the map would be on a Dyno. Why mess with it after that? And with the TM/AT, doesn't the program Automatically tune for optimum performance. I would expect it to. After all, that's why you would use that in the first place. What am I missing here? Hoist!

[Unbalanced]

Hoist you are running a bit blind to start but chief has a WEGO and Ironhorse has the self adjusting T-Max.   Ironhorse is safer overall as it can monitor and learn / change on the fly.   Chief on the otherhand has to take his bike out and run it and hope that the initial efficiencies on the volumetric side are right.    If the moco can run us at in some cases 18 to 1 ... I am sure that 30 minutes based on just fuel changes which for the most part are equal / richer than the moco that chief should probably be ok (disclaimer implied here).

Chief will go back after his run and most likely not touch his A/F but his Volumetrics will change and his timing when he decides to really fine tune his upper end power.

I would not suggest doing this unless you had one of these items or access to a dyno to prove / disprove your changes.

In regards to a dyno.   The problem is the motor is going to be richer at the head than what the sniffer is going to tell you.    getting a reading at 13 to 18 inches vs. 2 -6 inches from the head can give you a real difference in power.   If it were not the case then the T-Max or the Twin TEc would have no value besides the inherent it allows you to change hardware without paying a dyno guy.   The bikes with these closed loop systems are running much better than they were before, but the challenge is how good can anyone make a sert run which is something I am working on and obviously chief is too.     

The dyno gets it pretty close if done right, the problem is it does not give real world load and rideability.   Close yes, but for some not close enough which is why the WEGO and other products have made their way into our hands.  It is also great for WOT runs where on the road you wouldnt be holding on for the speeds / wind etc it is just that much safer for that type of run.     It is also good for the closed loop systems because most people never ride there or not often enough for the closed loop systems to learn and make the changes necessary.

[Chief]

Chief,

I think your being to aggressive for the fuel at 0-30 percent throttle.    If you don't care about stopping for gas  or possibly fouling plugs with traffic idles then your probably ok or if you were only talking about doing WOT dyno runs your probably ok, but I think you might be a little light for peak numbers at 80 percent throttle and 100 percent throttle.

At the higher RPM's your fuel should be increasing not decreasing so you would start at 13.8 to 1 and move down to 13.4 to one at the higher RPM's not the reverse.

If you were starting at a scratch point as I have already stated I would look at a starting point of 13.7 across the board and 13.4 at 80 percent and 13.0 at 100 percent and possibly more fuel depending on whats in the bike / flow etc at the upper end.   

The information I got was that if your using the race tuner the cells that are 14.6 (map 84 RED Color) are denoted as the closed loop settings that the ECM takes over when your under 30 percent throttle.   I have not been able to prove / disprove this, but it made sense.    If harley is running at 14.6 at idle and your at 13.4 while they are to lean you are I think to rich for a non WOT daily run.

The other thing you will want to look at is once you get the tables the way you want them and the Volumetrics to back it up, you will want to go to 80 percent throttle and 100 percent throttle and play with the timing a little bit to get peak performance out of the engine.    You will get pinging / knocking if you go to far so when you play with those numbers please be sure to be reserved and make changes only 1 increment at a time so your able to tell the net effect or what caused a problem also make sure the bike is at operating temps to be sure you get no pinging when you do this.   

UB,

I like what you're saying. Here is the logic behind the different AFR's at different RPM for a fixed throttle:

If I am cruising, my throttle is somewhere between 10% and 20% with a cruise RPM of 2,500 - 3,000. If the RPM is higher than what it is for steady state cruise, it probably indicates I'm going down a hill. Remember, the throttle is fixed and the RPM is floating. If the RPM drops at fixed throttle, I'm going uphill, or bucking a nasty headwind.

Going downhill represents lighter load on the motor, so a little leaner mixture should be OK. Going uphill means the motor is working harder and a richer mixture makes sense to me.

Does this logic make sense, or am I over-thinking it? In all of this, my constant thought is about load on the motor. If the motor is working hard, I want a richer mixture. If it is loafing, leaner should be OK. Right?

As for the timing, I'm running +4 for 100% above 2,000 RPM, and -4 for 40, 60 and 80% from 1,000 to 2,000. These are the values that are in the Dynojet map for the 110.

Modified Target Map:



Chief

[Unbalanced]

Chief,

Like you I am playing with it, but based on scenarios and lots of time playing on the dyno and talking to the guys that most call experts I am inclined to believe that your too rich at low rpm's and a bit to lean on the higher rpm's.
In no way am I putting any slight on the way your doing this it is just my take at this point on what your doing.

I am personally after the snap of the throttle and decent mileage while still keeping infront of Rhino (Ronnie).   Thus far I have accomplished most of that (subtle ding on ronnie) except the gas mileage as I am between 30-33 miles to the gallon atm, but I know I am rich on the bottom end (low rpm's), so that is the next small block to tackle.  I will start by leaning up the low rpm ranges in thehope of keeping the snap and hoping to not have to giving up the power.   I have to think I am on the right track and not that your not, but I am comparing to a semi known good config with the auto tune.   I don't wish to derail you from your path as you might be smarter than us all in your thinking and come up with an even better idea.    I would stay the path and see how you like it and from there you can always change.   

-harry

[Chief]

Hoist you are running a bit blind to start but chief has a WEGO and Ironhorse has the self adjusting T-Max.   Ironhorse is safer overall as it can monitor and learn / change on the fly.   Chief on the otherhand has to take his bike out and run it and hope that the initial efficiencies on the volumetric side are right.    If the moco can run us at in some cases 18 to 1 ... I am sure that 30 minutes based on just fuel changes which for the most part are equal / richer than the moco that chief should probably be ok (disclaimer implied here).

Chief will go back after his run and most likely not touch his A/F but his Volumetrics will change and his timing when he decides to really fine tune his upper end power.

I would not suggest doing this unless you had one of these items or access to a dyno to prove / disprove your changes.

In regards to a dyno.   The problem is the motor is going to be richer at the head than what the sniffer is going to tell you.    getting a reading at 13 to 18 inches vs. 2 -6 inches from the head can give you a real difference in power.   If it were not the case then the T-Max or the Twin TEc would have no value besides the inherent it allows you to change hardware without paying a dyno guy.   The bikes with these closed loop systems are running much better than they were before, but the challenge is how good can anyone make a sert run which is something I am working on and obviously chief is too.     

The dyno gets it pretty close if done right, the problem is it does not give real world load and rideability.   Close yes, but for some not close enough which is why the WEGO and other products have made their way into our hands.  It is also great for WOT runs where on the road you wouldnt be holding on for the speeds / wind etc it is just that much safer for that type of run.     It is also good for the closed loop systems because most people never ride there or not often enough for the closed loop systems to learn and make the changes necessary.

Harry,

This will be interesting because I'm running the Power Commander while you are running the SERT. The only control I have for fuel, is the adder tables. I don't have all the other tables the SERT has.

When I started out, I was using the map for a 96 inch motor which was not too bad. I tweaked on that for awhile, and then DJ came out with the map for the 110, SE A/C and Rineharts. I ran that one and it produced the following picture of for the rear cylinder when I started out tuning for 10% TPS.



After some tuning the lower TPS, I started working on the higher TPS stuff. My most recent run is below:



Things are getting better, but I'm not done yet. I'm having problems finding places to run. My current dyno road is marked 45, and I'm running up in the 80-90 range to get the higher revs. I need to find better roads, a VERY steep hill would be nice slow the acceleration. Damn bike gets it good.

I've got the scanner hooked into the Acc. switch so I don't record all the time (That's why the lower stuff is so sparse). I'm thinking of moving it to the horn wire to make toggling it on and off easier. The problem is that it only holds 3,600 data points, and at 5/sec, that's only 12 minutes of data.

Chief

[Chief]

Another tool I've got to play with is the Road Dyno: Road Dyno. When I get the AFR's that I THINK I like, I can start tweaking based on performance.

Chief

[Unbalanced]

Chief,

I sent you PM.

In regards to your WegoII.   You may want to use the config I posted earlier on moving it to under the seat using the free accessory switch which is unused atm and can be used as switched and unswitched.   I bought the extender piece which is a deutsch connector to turn it into 2 separage plugs and then bought a male deutsch connector 4 pin and some female deutsch connector pins and used pin lay out 1 / 4 do not use 1 / 2 there is not a good ground there as it is tied to the rear tailight.

This will help give good power to the WEGO.

[Chief]

Chief,

Like you I am playing with it, but based on scenarios and lots of time playing on the dyno and talking to the guys that most call experts I am inclined to believe that your too rich at low rpm's and a bit to lean on the higher rpm's.
In no way am I putting any slight on the way your doing this it is just my take at this point on what your doing.

I am personally after the snap of the throttle and decent mileage while still keeping infront of Rhino (Ronnie).   Thus far I have accomplished most of that (subtle ding on ronnie) except the gas mileage as I am between 30-33 miles to the gallon atm, but I know I am rich on the bottom end (low rpm's), so that is the next small block to tackle.  I will start by leaning up the low rpm ranges in thehope of keeping the snap and hoping to not have to giving up the power.   I have to think I am on the right track and not that your not, but I am comparing to a semi known good config with the auto tune.   I don't wish to derail you from your path as you might be smarter than us all in your thinking and come up with an even better idea.    I would stay the path and see how you like it and from there you can always change.   

-harry

Harry,

Don't worry about saying what you think. I'm soaking up everything trying to get a good handle on the topic. What's interesting is the different approaches we have. My whole approach is based on TPS. I've got some masking tape stuck on the throttle with the different throttle settings marked on them so I can nail the throttle to a set point and let the bike go. For me, the RPM is what it is. Before I marked the throttle, I didn't have any reference, except the tach, and it was too hit or miss. Now, I'll lock the throttle at 10% and just cruise down the road with fixed throttle and hope I don't run over anyone in my way, cuz' I ain't in favor of changin' the death grip I've got on the throttle.

Pinkie has stated she doesn't want me to do any of this stuff when she's on the bike. She's a smart woman.

Chief

[Chief]

Chief,

I sent you PM.

In regards to your WegoII.   You may want to use the config I posted earlier on moving it to under the seat using the free accessory switch which is unused atm and can be used as switched and unswitched.   I bought the extender piece which is a deutsch connector to turn it into 2 separage plugs and then bought a male deutsch connector 4 pin and some female deutsch connector pins and used pin lay out 1 / 4 do not use 1 / 2 there is not a good ground there as it is tied to the rear tailight.

This will help give good power to the WEGO.

I guess we were both typing at the same time. See above.

Chief

[Rhino]

Since every engine is different, I don't see how setting up these cells blindly, just based on AFR, would be the ideal map. I would still think the only way to optimize the map would be on a Dyno. Why mess with it after that? And with the TM/AT, doesn't the program Automatically tune for optimum performance. I would expect it to. After all, that's why you would use that in the first place. What am I missing here? Hoist!

The Thundermax has a map. The map was designed by pros. They insure that you will have a good running motor all across the band.  They do it pretty well.  After you put the TM & AT on your bike, it will autotune to the setting on the map THEY created. And again, it is not bad.  But, taking into account different idiocycrasies of YOUR bike, they then leave room to play. For example, IMO, I would try adding a bit of fuel on the map for MORE power at the top end. Seems on MY bike, this works for more performance. But again, the map is good, and the AUTO TUNE will let your bike follow it carefully. That way you know exactly where each cell is regarding AFR.  In MY case, running back the AFR from the high end stock number of 12.5 to a richer 12.1 worked for me. Other bikes may run in the leaner side, but I doubt it.

Bottom line, is you are only going to get so much for the stock config. You can play a little with timing too, but unless you know what you are doing, best leave it alone.  The auto tune works wonders for holding the specific AFR's

I would also think it would be difficult, becasue of each bikes' differences, that you can ask Zuippers for a pure performance map for the 110 & AT. I think they did good, and the problem becomes, if I read this correctly, that again, each bike is slightly different. SO me, I add fuel, and it works.  On an earlier thread, I mentioned that the AFR may not be the TRUE afr. It is also adjusted with timing, temperature and other variables for the targets.  Hope this helps a bit.

Rhino(fasterjester)

[Ironhorse]

I guess if you have the T-Max auto tune, one option is to ride the bike with the PC hooked up and the software running in the data record mode. Then play back the data and see where it is fat and where it is lean, and make the changes. Because even though Zippers set an "ideal" MAP for the ECM, that does not mean it is the most practical. Or am I off here?