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[Rhino]

H10 & Unbalanced

Here is how I see it. Aj with a PC, thinkingn he's got it right, Unbalanced with a SERT using Wego Analyzer, and ME, using a slightly modified Zippers AutoTune.

This is propbably going to be the most important topic on the board coming soon.  All three bikes, all the same year, color, and engines, getting together for a showdown.  The bikes, with the exception of the pipes and the above, are all stock. This is going to be the tell on this whole issue.  Looks like PowerCommander, Harley SERT and ZIppers all have their reputations on the line now. The winner of this one will probably sway market share into the tens of thousands for each company. 

I am confident that Zippers will win.  I am also confident that Zippers is the easiest to tune.  What next boyz?

Rhino(fasteststockjesterperiod)

[Talon]

Yea, but will stock bikes tell the true story, PC, is a good product, but I don't think it has as many tuning options as SERT and Zipper. I'd rather see it done with bikes using a custom build, like most people buying a tuner would do. This might let SERT and Zipper shine, but with stock bikes it might be much closer than many would think.

[Rhino]

That is the true Apples to Apples theory. If we make the best from a stock bike, with a certain tuning device, imagine how that would work on a custom.  For base comparisons, I think this is the way to go. JMHO

Rhino(fasterstockperiod)

[SBB]

AJ

Slip on up here, the cams will be here any day.
Your apple can turn into an orange!
The biggest orange


Will take only about two hours.

 

[Chief]

H10 & Unbalanced

Here is how I see it. Aj with a PC, thinkingn he's got it right, Unbalanced with a SERT using Wego Analyzer, and ME, using a slightly modified Zippers AutoTune.

This is propbably going to be the most important topic on the board coming soon.  All three bikes, all the same year, color, and engines, getting together for a showdown.  The bikes, with the exception of the pipes and the above, are all stock. This is going to be the tell on this whole issue.  Looks like PowerCommander, Harley SERT and ZIppers all have their reputations on the line now. The winner of this one will probably sway market share into the tens of thousands for each company. 

I am confident that Zippers will win.  I am also confident that Zippers is the easiest to tune.  What next boyz?

Rhino(fasteststockjesterperiod)

If you're close by, and mine hasn't turned into a lump of solidified aluminium, as the Brits would say, I'll throw my WEGO tuned PC into the mix. I'll go big, or I'll go bang. Film at 11.

Chief

[ESJ JESTER]

Ok....The time has come to join the club. I am starting out with the fastest paint colors so at least it will be fair. Totally stock at this point except for Amsoil & Red Line jucies.  The box from BUB  with RH  TD  sits here as does the roll your own.  Like Q i await the postman for the WFP sert score. I have time in my corner to max out the software with sert in bone stock form and or add the  air and pipe.   I have sure been thinkin of the cat  gutting as the second stage of the test. 1st being just richen her up to lower temps from stock.  I guess i am going to have to carry both of the Bow-Flex hand weights in the bags to catch up to the riders mass to be fair?

[Rhino]

Sounds like theh beginnings of a rondevous. Perhaps near the Florida/Geaorgia/SCarolina Border for a weekend?

Rhino

[ESJ JESTER]

Sure , another day and snow will be completly gone. I am riding the scoot to ocala natl forest for a yrly  campin gig  3/29-3/31.  then a few weeks floating in the gulf and return to the mountains to get ready for York. I would imagine 1 trip to st.pete will have the boy's pretty cooked.  Lots of temp test time during the trip tho. Prolly gonna have to stop by AJ's to compare notes and check his and Chips turbo install by then

[Chief]

Ok, for a comparison of the Dynojet supplied map M812-025 and the one I have been working on, I have come up with the following. In the image below, a Blue value means my map is richer than the 812-025 by the indicated amount. For example, a 5 means my custom map has 5% more fuel in that cell. In contrast to that, a Red number means my custom map is leaner than the Dynojet map. Similar to above, a -5 means my custom map is 5% LEANER than the Dynojet map for that cell.

The shaded portion of the map is pretty much where I ride when just poking around town. What I take from this is that where I'm riding in a 35 or 45 zone, is right where I've put a good amount of fuel over the Dynojet map.

In contrast, dead idle is leaned out, so that can account for some elevated temps when getting stuck in traffic. Definite richening there should help slow down elevated temperature syndrome. The 2% stuff could probably use some more juice too.

My plan today is to modify my map to use the higher value of the two maps and go for a spin. If the DJ map is richer, use that, and if my map is higher, use that. If that doesn't do it, I'll take my custom numbers and bump them up to drive the AFR even lower and see what that does.

Chief

[FLHRSE3]

I picked up a cheap infrared thermometer on sale today at Harbor Freight.  I went for a ride about 3 miles to the local dealer, was in there about a half hour, then rode the 3 miles back.  This was on a fifty mph road and caught one traffic light. Shot the rear head in the vicinity of the spark plug when I got back, 331F and this was with an ambient temperature of 49F.  Bike is still stock but not for long with those temps.

Gregg

[Chief]

I picked up a cheap infrared thermometer on sale today at Harbor Freight.  I went for a ride about 3 miles to the local dealer, was in there about a half hour, then rode the 3 miles back.  This was on a fifty mph road and caught one traffic light. Shot the rear head in the vicinity of the spark plug when I got back, 331F and this was with an ambient temperature of 49F.  Bike is still stock but not for long with those temps.

Gregg

Greg,

It look like I'm not alone on this one. Time to buy stock in infrared sensor company.

Chief

[djkak]

Cheif,
This is Adam from Zipper's. I just wanted to chime in to tell you that 360 is WAY too hot, that is in the danger zone. You are at the heat treat temperature of the head castings, if you go much beyond that, or do not correct the current issue, something WILL fail. Let me repeat this to show the significance of your findings, 360 is DANGEROUSLY hot.....
Thanks!

Adam

I may be setting myself up for a pounding here, but this doesn’t sound right to me. It is my sense that a near stock EVO or Twin Cam Bagger will run 360 + cylinder head temp all day long when run at highway speeds, in ambient temps around 100 F. I wouldn’t be surprised at all to learn that 360 is somewhere in the normal operating range for these engines.

djkak

[Hoist!]

I may be setting myself up for a pounding here, but this doesn’t sound right to me. It is my sense that a near stock EVO or Twin Cam Bagger will run 360 + cylinder head temp all day long when run at highway speeds, in ambient temps around 100 F. I wouldn’t be surprised at all to learn that 360 is somewhere in the normal operating range for these engines.

djkak

I agree. I think the Zipper's guy might have thought your oil temp is 360. Is that possible? If the oil temp in the tank can reach 250-260, why would you expect head temps lower than 100 deg higher than that, at the top of the combustion chamber. Does anyone have access to an engine design engineer? These questions need to addressed at an engineering level. No one seems to really know what the actual head temp should be and this is causing widespread panic among everyone here, probably for no reason. Pound me with dj, but this needs more research and documentation before I'll go by these passing comments here. That's my $.02 on this. If anyone thinks there's something wrong with Chief's engine, please provide the appropriate engineering backup to prove this. Frankly if that occurs, I think we have thousands of misdesigned engines out there, including every '07 CVO! Hoist!

[djkak]

I think that if the oil temp was anywhere near 360 F, one of the firefighters in this group would need to get involved to make sure the salvage was safe to haul away.
 
I believe that Adam may have made a simple mistake. The upper limit that I remember hearing years ago was somewhere substantially north of 360 F. I believe that many thousands of these machines have been running under these conditions for a very long time.

Normal head temp? It looks like we have several well equipped folks just itching to get started on a study. It is my understanding that normal operating temp @ 75 F, takes something like 20 miles. Don't forget to shoot a couple of EVO's while you are at it.

djkak

[Rhino]

I for one am waiting for Adam to respond. I will maintain the advantage with my autotune while I am still stock. As changes occur, I am interested to see how others perform also.  The apple game must be concluded before I take on Chip.

Rhino(alwaysthefastestjesternomatterwhat)