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[Jester_Red07]

Pinging can be caused or affected by the quality of your fuel, the type of spark plug being used (for your specific modifications - there are "hotter" and "cooler" plugs), ignition timing, lean or rich fuel mixture or just plain lugging the motor by using an improper gear for the amount of horsepower and torque your motor is creating....

I have not had that much experience with motorcycle motors, but I spent about the first 40 years of my life in my father's shop - he raced pretty successfully for over 50 years - now retired - in various road racing series and in various types of cars.  I started building motors at about the age 12 or so - and as the years went by I built hundreds of motors and spent many many years working with various high performance engine builders and parts manufacturers across the country - some of the best in the business. I have a pretty thorough understanding of how it all works.  So, yes, I have seen it happen, and even caused it to happen once or twice by crossing that magic line - just not with a bike motor.

There are fewer dangers associated with retarding the ignition timng, but no real advantages either other then losing a bit of temperature.  If retarded to much, the engine will become hard starting and definitely lose horsepower.  Effectively, it would be like losing compression - retarded ignition will cause the spark plugs to fire when the valves are "more open" and advanced ignition causes the spark plugs to fire when the valves are "more closed".  Of course this can be optimized with the grind of the cam - but that is a whole other topic...

Think of the motor as a big air pump.  The more air you can flow through the entire system  - from the intake through the exhaust - the more potential you have to make horsepower and torque.  What you do with the air as it flows through the system is where the shape of your intake manifold and cylinder head ports, the position - configuration -  and size of your intake/exhaust valves, the configuration of your pistons, the grind of your cam, your exhaust system - the weight of all the moving components, the type and method of lubrication - and as we are discussing here - how and when your spark plugs ignite the air/fuel mixture - determines how efficiently your motor runs and what type horsepower and torque your motor creates.  Of course, flowing more air and fuel to create horsepower and torque are enemies of fuel economy - so you have to keep your goals in mind - you can't have everything  .  The only primary adjustments that can be made to your motor without getting into the mechanical component side of things is adjusting the air/fuel mixture (thru jets or computers) and adjusting the timing. 

I have been away from this mechanical world for a few years now, so I find some of the recent advancements made through use of computer technology fascinating.  I recently installed a ThunderMax with Autotune on my bike and am still figuring out what its capabilities are and how to use it - I know one thing though - it is pretty cool stuff.  Unfortunately, my time is very limited, so I know little of its capabilities. Fortunately, I have benefited from the experiences of some of the members of this site to help accelerate my learning curve of this system - and for which I am very appreciative.

Scott

   Scott,
 Thank you for the explanation of what is happening in there.  I am learning the TMAX
also. I just want to make sure that my engine is not in danger. But hey , It's a HD! It could GRENADE @ anytime! No matter what the mods are. It is a gamble, But you can change the odds some I believe by doing the stupid things! That is what I am trying to avoid!

[Rhino]

For the what its worth column, I found on all the maps I have been tinkering with on the Zippers AT, that some bikes just like a slightly retarded timing from what Zippers created. I think Zippers did a fine job, but some variables are bound to exist with each bike. Especially once in a while you get some cheap gas.  To be safe, I tried a few variables, but the first one I did was the following:

from 2016rpm to 2800 something range on the tmax, I retarded the timing by 1 little point.  In other words, lower 4 of those marks one level.  It was in this range I would sometimes get a very slight yet audible ping.  After this minor change, two things happened. One, it is cooler, and two, it actually feels stronger. (no ping does that)

And finally, as a reminder to all with the TMAX.  Zippers does some nice maps. But remember, the AutoTune only tunes and locks on what you tell it to do. Therefore, it is not unusual that each bike being a bit different, that a minor tweak in some areas (only 2 really) need attention. Those are the timimg, as described above, and the 32 AFR charts which can be modified..........one thing at a time though.

Rhino(tmaxmaptinkingforpersonaluseonly)

[Chief]

I want to add some more empirical data to the study. Hoist is in town and we rode to dinner and back yesterday.

We took the shortcut to dinner going to dinner, but when we got there, I was 326 rear and Hoist was 345. Coming home from dinner, we took a slightly longer ride and I was reading 345, and Hoist was 362. In both instances, Hoist was running 20 degrees hotter than I was. When he got in yesterday I got to measure the temps after the bike sat for maybe 2 minutes, and got 372 rear. In all readings, the front was always lower, so I didn't even bother trying to remember it.

The rear jug is the one that runs hot, but the ECM only measures the front (cold) jug. Go figure. I guess this way, they isn't any data showing how hot the rear jug is running.

[nixobilly]

Rhino,

Would you post your latest (with timing changes) TMAX map or email it to me please?

Thanks,

Mark

[Smiler]

I may be setting myself up for a pounding here, but this doesn’t sound right to me. It is my sense that a near stock EVO or Twin Cam Bagger will run 360 + cylinder head temp all day long when run at highway speeds, in ambient temps around 100 F. I wouldn’t be surprised at all to learn that 360 is somewhere in the normal operating range for these engines.

djkak

Maybe another test is to run the CVO alongside the 88 and/or 95 to see if any what a difference the 110 makes. 

[miker]

I want to add some more empirical data to the study. Hoist is in town and we rode to dinner and back yesterday.

We took the shortcut to dinner going to dinner, but when we got there, I was 326 rear and Hoist was 345. Coming home from dinner, we took a slightly longer ride and I was reading 345, and Hoist was 362. In both instances, Hoist was running 20 degrees hotter than I was. When he got in yesterday I got to measure the temps after the bike sat for maybe 2 minutes, and got 372 rear. In all readings, the front was always lower, so I didn't even bother trying to remember it.

The rear jug is the one that runs hot, but the ECM only measures the front (cold) jug. Go figure. I guess this way, they isn't any data showing how hot the rear jug is running.

Do you have guess on air temp's humidity and bike set-up...?  Thanks

Miker

[Chief]

Do you have guess on air temp's humidity and bike set-up...?  Thanks

Miker

The afternoon when I shot the 372, it was 81 degrees. Humidity was probably around 50%.
Going to dinner, I would guess about 77 or 78, humidity would be about the same 50%.
Coming home, maybe afew degrees cooler. Total time from first run to last was 6.5 to 7 hours. Temperatures were relatively constand, but falling as expected towards evening.

He is running Doherty PP, PCIII USB, V&H TD's with S&S SPO mufflers. Riding 2-up.
I am running SE/AC (K&N), PCIII USB and Rinehart TD's, also 2-up. I have removed the movable barn doors on the lowers, but have left the painted parts on the bike.

[miker]

Thanks, I have been scribbling the notes down on bike setup, ambient t/h, driving conditions.
It is nice to see 07 serk and uc's numbers...
My last serk outting was solo, no fairing, 80d @ 60%rh (SoFla in may, uggh), RH2-1, sert, se ac.  Intermittent traffic up to 60 mph and measured the 340-360 at lights range with around 240-260 cruising along...I tried to get the device in the same area as while idling.   

[Chief]

Thanks, I have been scribbling the notes down on bike setup, ambient t/h, driving conditions.
It is nice to see 07 serk and uc's numbers...
My last serk outting was solo, no fairing, 80d @ 60%rh (SoFla in may, uggh), RH2-1, sert, se ac.  Intermittent traffic up to 60 mph and measured the 340-360 at lights range with around 240-260 cruising along...I tried to get the device in the same area as while idling.   

We're planning on running down to the aquarium today, so we'll be able to get a couple more today.

[Twolanerider]

Maybe another test is to run the CVO alongside the 88 and/or 95 to see if any what a difference the 110 makes. 

When I was taking advantage of Chief and Pinkie's hospitality several weeks ago he shot my rear cylinder and his with an IR gun after identical rides.  I don't remember know what the difference was.  But it was significant.

[Twolanerider]

We're planning on running down to the aquarium today, so we'll be able to get a couple more today.

So you're thinking that recent practice will have Traxxion Dynamics getting quicker this time  ?

[Chief]

When I was taking advantage of Chief and Pinkie's hospitality several weeks ago he shot my rear cylinder and his with an IR gun after identical rides.  I don't remember know what the difference was.  But it was significant.

I had to delete that data from the database because of the observed Head Bolt Bridge interference and the different powdercoat. No way to get an accurate comparison with your blinged out jugs.

So you're thinking that recent practice will have Traxxion Dynamics getting quicker this time  ?

That is the plan. I haven't forgotten hanging out for several hours with you when I thought they would be done by 2:00.

This time it's going to be different, at least I hope so. I think Barrie would really like to get away from all motorcycle talk for awhile.

[Fired00d]

So you're thinking that recent practice will have Traxxion Dynamics getting quicker this time  ?

Either one of two things can happen...

1. Howie will be talking to them so much that they can't get any work done and he'll be there an extra day. or

2. Howie will be talking to them so much that they will speed up working on his bike to get him out of there.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[Twolanerider]

I had to delete that data from the database because of the observed Head Bolt Bridge interference and the different powdercoat. No way to get an accurate comparison with your blinged out jugs.

And don't forget the diamond cutting  .  The powder coating was (pretty much) a one for one swap with the old silver blasted off and the new red laid on.  But that diamond cutting is only done for one purpose; it's the massive cooling effect  .

[ccr]

And don't forget the diamond cutting  .  The powder coating was (pretty much) a one for one swap with the old silver blasted off and the new red laid on.  But that diamond cutting is only done for one purpose; it's massive cooling effect  .

And it is just so kewl, the cooling effect is pure