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[Rhino]

WET SUMP!!!!!!!

Just as HD said. I will bet a paycheck on it. It does happen even with a very good and experience wrench.

I have seen it and I HAVE DONE IT.

The bad part about it, they may have used the old O ring!

Hello Dawg,

How a bout a little education here.  I thought if a motor got wet sumped, you may, or would start blowin gaskets?  eDUCATE ME AND CORRECT ME IF i'M WRONG,
tHANKS

oops,

Rhino(dry)

[hd-dude]

I'll give it a shot, Dawg may be able to explain better but here it goes:

Wet sump is what happens to the motor when the oil pump does not pull the oil from the crankcase. The added oil makes it difficult for the pistons to come down during the downstroke due to the oil filling the space where air would normally be. This increased pressure robs the motor of it power as its fighting itself to rotate around.

There is a single o-ring that connects the crankcase area below the pistons to the oil pump. When the oil pmp is installed if this o-ring is cut or in crooked the pump will not pull the oil from the case properly.

[RedDevil]

Thanks fellas,
     I may go down there this morning to see what's up.  This guy is pretty easy to deal with,  and his No.1 wrench just went down the road.  I have to believe ((after talking to Harry and Jim) that there is something freaked n the install.  I'll start from there.  BTW,  does anyone have a decent base map that I can give this guy to get started (I think he's gonna spend the whole day tunning) where as a map that's close may prove sooner that there is something wrong in the motor.   Thanks again..


_Beags


By the way,    if anyone's interested........I'm riding it home from the shop!!!!   The back is much better (not 100% yet), but getting better everyday.

Matt,
Outstanding!!!  Glad to hear the back is feeling a lot better.    It's just a matter of time and you'll be 100% ...
Cheers ,
 

[Rhino]

I'll give it a shot, Dawg may be able to explain better but here it goes:

Wet sump is what happens to the motor when the oil pump does not pull the oil from the crankcase. The added oil makes it difficult for the pistons to come down during the downstroke due to the oil filling the space where air would normally be. This increased pressure robs the motor of it power as its fighting itself to rotate around.

There is a single o-ring that connects the crankcase area below the pistons to the oil pump. When the oil pmp is installed if this o-ring is cut or in crooked the pump will not pull the oil from the case properly.

Thank you for a good simple explanation sir.    My first thought would be if the oil gets where the air should be, seems like you can bend something, oil doesn't compress., Or since it is on the backside, it doesnt compress?  Yeh, that's it.  hehehe answered my own question...  maybe.

Rhino(sleepy)

[Mikey]

I think it will start pumping lots of oil in the airfilter also.
Mike

[Hoist!]

Two things happen if you're wet sumping. The oil in the crankcase causes "windage" like Jim said and the flywheel assembly has to fight the extra resistance to overcome this. This robs horsepower. It also creates crankcase breather problems, and as Mikey said, you should see excessive oil from your breather vent lines. Pull the A/C cover and see if you have a lot of oil in there. If you have an older bike you'll be familiar with this phenomenon. If you let the bike sit over the winter, when you go start it for the first time, you have a bunch of oil puking out of the crankcase breather, which is vented to the ground directly from the crankcase. The oil in the system drains into the crankcase from the heads and causes wet sumping, which gets puked out on that first start-up. But if you have a misinstalled oil pump, you won't be returning all of the oil like Jim stated. Hope this helps. Hoist!

[Screamin_Beagle]

Well fellas,
     Still no word on the bike situation.   I'll call the guy later and see if he got it worked out and what was wrong.  I'll keep y'all in the loop.



_Beags

[Twolanerider]

Two things happen if you're wet sumping.

Taken out of context that just sounds do dirty......

[DCFIREMANN]

Taken out of context that just sounds do dirty......

I agree Don!!!!! Now we are both going to be on DSP!!!!

OK to add a little that HD had posted.

You will not see excessive oil out of the air cleaner on this one. Unlike a TROUBLE HEAD motor it is and is not the same. Now do I have you all confused?

As Jim stated if you use an old O ring or pinch the new O ring that creats a seal between the oil pump and the right side of the engine case, you will lose a lot of scavenging of the oil from the lower end. These motors have oil jets so oil is pumped into the cases and sprayed at the bottom of the pistons to help cool the pistons and lube the cylinders and the bearings. When this oil accumulates it robs power. A lot of power. The flywheels are now turning in a big puddle of oil. When the oil gets up high enough it will run out of the right side crank bearing into the cam cavity where it will eventially get picked up by the oil pump. Even though the motor will run it will be slugish. As you run it more at crusing RPM's the wet sumping will decrease but not totally. So when on the Dyno and the bike is at idle warming up the lower end is filling up with oil. When the operator hits the throttle the flywheels are really turning a lot of oil and robbing power and the dyno sheet reflects it.

OK guys is that better???


Be Safe

THE DAWG

[SPIDERMAN]

I find this whole episode rather distressing. 1st off, the shop doing the work on Beagle's bike has done hundreds of hi-po upgrades and I've never heard a disparaging word. I have a hard time believing they didn't do the work correctly. Next, in June of 2003 I tried to upgrade my almost new 03 SERK and it was a total disaster. Without head work it just wouldn't work. So I have to say, I've been more than a bit skeptical about this whole thing.  BUT - - - - if there's one thing I've learned over the years, it's that it's how the parts match up that matters the most. IS IT POSSIBLE, that Beagle's combination of a Doherty Power Pacc and Hooker True Duals tuned for max torque and his PC could somehow be the culprit here ? All you folks runnin these cams, please list what you are running for breather, tuner and exhaust

Thanks
           B B

[Twolanerider]

I find this whole episode rather distressing. 1st off, the shop doing the work on Beagle's bike has done hundreds of hi-po upgrades and I've never heard a disparaging word. I have a hard time believing they didn't do the work correctly. Next, in June of 2003 I tried to upgrade my almost new 03 SERK and it was a total disaster. Without head work it just wouldn't work. So I have to say, I've been more than a bit skeptical about this whole thing.  BUT - - - - if there's one thing I've learned over the years, it's that it's how the parts match up that matters the most. IS IT POSSIBLE, that Beagle's combination of a Doherty Power Pacc and Hooker True Duals tuned for max torque and his PC could somehow be the culprit here ? All you folks runnin these cams, please list what you are running for breather, tuner and exhaust

Thanks
           B B

Brian, certainly (and unfortunately) almost anything is possible.  And we're all aware of the horror stories wrought by expensive combinations of mismatched parts that just don't play together.  All that being so, I really doubt it's the case on Matt's bike.

We can cross our fingers and hope it's something as simple as a measurement error.  A problem with the dyno itself.  How likely it is we don't have a clue without knowing the dyno itself.  Easy enough to check though by just spinning another bike with known numbers.

The benefit there is that it's the easiest and cheapest problem.  That makes it always worth at least wondering about and doing what one can to check for.  Admittedly, it's more likely a bike problem though.

While some mismatch is always a concern we've just seen so many combinations of these cams and other parts that it's difficult to accept the problem resides there.  I'd be more inclined to consider mispackaged parts that are other than what was expected than I would a mismatch issue causing the problem.

Since that isn't terribly likely either unfortunately it'll probably end up being one of the various assembly issues mentioned previously.  Any of the things mentioned are possible.  It's never a bad plan to check the cheapest and easiest first.  But were it my bike with everything described going on I'd not be concerned about problems with mismatched parts and would, unfortunately, expect to eventually find an assembly problem of some kind.

I may be slower than a wrench that's doing this everyday.  But I've yet to be dissapointed that someone else was not working on mine... 

Again, sorry guys for all the hassles you're having to go through.  The silver lining will end up being that it'll end up running great when all is said and done.

[CVOJOE]

Brian,
Damn sorry to hear about Matt's issues. Of all the NORCAL CVO's that have been done, mostly by Jim (HD Dude) I don't remember hearing of such numbers. I'm running Arlen Ness Big Sucker air filter and Rinehart true duals with SERT for the tuning medium, no head work, and managed to get 108HP & 119 FT LBS after the YB14SEC cams, Feuling Oil Pump and cam support plate installation. Something wrong with Matt's install I think, especially after seeing the way his SEEG ran when we were out on the byways around SDO. 

Joe

[Screamin_Beagle]

We'll,
    For once in my life,  I'm at a loss for words here.  My bike ran like a raped ape before I took it in for a set of cams, now it looks like I'm gonna be a little (if not ALOT  dissapointed) when I pick it up.  I do believe that Randy (my long time friend and go to guy too....he's always made my bikes run sweet... from CycleVisions) is doing his best to make it run,  but things just don't add up. I never had my bike Dyno'd after the breather, pipes and PCIII (I would have liked to have a base line pre- mods....but didn't happen), so I have no idea what the true numbers are (or were), but  BB has a 2003 SERK (AKA. ELVIS... that makes +/- 94HP and 98 Lb/ft on a Dyno)...... and can tell you that after MANY light to light's..........highway 5th gear roll on's,  drop one and let's play......Elvis held his own,  but I never saw tail lights.  I've been back and forth with Jim and Harry, Randy (Thanks fellas...)....Clark ( the best wrench at CV) and still no big numbers.  And when I say big,  I mean I'd like to see 103/103.......I'm still gettind 78/103.  I have to believe that the bike made better numbers than that before I spent $1800 on cams and ...and ..and.

I'm just venting at this point,   and thank you Jim (HD-DUDE) and Harry (unBalanced) for all your input and phone calls,  but pretty much like my back,   the Doc says you'll be walking out of the hospital the day after and good as new in a week....... and well,  didn't work that way.



_Beags

[hd-dude]

Just to add in here I had a lenthy conversation with Beag's wrench today. It does seem (through the phone at least) that these guys are really trying to make this all work. Based on our conversation he seems to feels that with some major mods to the Hooker slip on mufflers he can probably get the numbers up to the mid 90's hp and 100+ on the torque. At the point of our last conversation they had only done pulls on the dyno and no tuning. I asked how the AF looked and they had not run the sniffer yet With a tune the numbers can and most likely will come up several HP and torque. They were just trying different maps to see what numbers they got. They also completely removed the baffels and did a run and the HP came up almost 10 points.

They feel VERY strongly that the Hooker duals and tuned flow mufflers are the limiting factor here. I also had a converstion with FCC about the numbers and thier 1st thought in all of this is / was the same as mine and several others here that the motor was sumped. The wrench checked for that and they say that it is not. I also asked FCC about the pipes and they agree that the Hooker mufflers are limiting the performance of the bike (but not but 20+ horsepower)

After giving this a lot of thought over the last few hours I would insist that they pull the cam plate and inspect the oil pump. I also have to believe that the pipes are limiting the performance of the bike.


Hang in there Matt, We all now that the cams you choose are a great product and work very well. There are several installs and dyno's to prove it.

[DCFIREMANN]

Jim again I have to agree with you here. It is wet sumping. If they remove the cam cover and get anywhere close to a qt of oil that is the problem or they have a very weak oil pump. Regardless I would have pulled the plate and checked. I would have also installed a fueling pump and a bypass shim during the process.

I have a very good friend of mine (not THE VOON) that drag races bikes and even worked at Zippers for a while before opening his own shop. I consider him a very good wrench. He built a 107 twin cam and installed a set of Red Shift cams a couple of years ago. When he was finished he put the bike on the dyno and got some very poor numbers. He did play with jetting and timing but to no avail. He then went over to Zippers ranting about the bad set of cams he received. The guys at Zippers checked the cams and they were right on. They also told the GREAT and ALMIGHTY about wet sumping and he called BS. Then again stated the cams were the problem. Now he starts yelling about the junk they were selling before he went back to his shop and even checked the oil ring or the oil pump.

GUESS WHAT a pinched O ring. Just so very slightly but still pinched. He replaced it and redynoed. now he gets a great set of numbers.

So it just goes to show you even the most experienced wrench can pinch one of these things!

Beags I know they will get it worked out. But even with a set of numbers of 103/103 I think the TQ number should be much higher. And BTW you are looking for the higher TQ number all day long.

Be Safe

THE DAWG