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[Twolanerider]

Rhino,

I guess the easiest way to know would be for Zippers to send him a new ECM loaded with the same MAP. If the bike runs well, then yes, it was a bad ECM all along. If the bike still pings and runs like crap, then it probably has to do with matching the build to the MAP tune, correct?

Mark

Mark, such an offer would have to come from them.  Such an offer would of course be factored in any judgement of their overall response.  But it is above and beyond normal warranty handling.  So it's not my place to request it.

[Rhino]

Granted, this IT stuff is difficult for me.  I only did systems design and deployment for a few years, troubleshoot some minor systems for Raytheon, Boeing or Thiokol occasionally and worked in PC environments for a decade or so.  So this hooking bike to a PC stuff is some deep chit.  But I got the cheese to lead the mouse to the PC and I plugged the mouse's tail right in to that Thundermax thingie.  The little bastard bit me, but he was in there.  File went right in right after I got the rabies shot.

Maybe you should stick to computers.

yes the file loaded.  EVERYTHING that is supposed to report reports.  Connections are fine.  Engine assembly was fine.  Pushrods were adjusted correctly per Zippers supplied data sheet.  In fact ALL appropriate directions from Zippers have been followed to the letter; even when they themselves have been revised.  It's all good.  It still pings.

Rhino, as has been said before, no one doubts that yours is doing well.  And that's great.  It's just that for some reason others of us aren't having the same experience.  Why that seemed to trouble you so is beyond me.  You crossed the line a bit from suggesting ideas on the one hand to looking for and pre-supposing end user blame on the other. 

Since I have been involved in many installs and tweaks for the systems, 99% were operator error. Just goin by what I have experienced on numerous installs on the phone.

You don't need to defend your own experience.  Really.  I'm happy yours is a seamless usage of the system.  Sure as well wish mine was the same.

Not defending, mine is a non issue, and everyone elses ultimately runs well after a tweak if at all, yours is a sticky point.

No matter how effective your usage has been, however, you have to admit that if someone is experiencing a problem they need to know that effective assistance is easily gained from the supplier.  That is especially true when the supplier and the product are as proprietary as is this system and the system in question is primarily responsible for keeping you off the side of the road. 

And I have taken it upon myself to be a samaritan for the company, and help where neccessary. So I don't need the sidebar commentary, especially from you.

We've really only got one source for help.  With the prospect of being on the road in the middle of no where ahead of you that source must be reliable.

That is overstated, dont you have AARP?

That being so the BIG issue here has never been the hardware.  I still think that if implemented correctly this system would be the nuts.  I don't think it's a hardware problem at all; I'd bet 103Thunder's left nut that it's software.  But the two become one when support for either comes from one place.  In my case, and unfortunately in the case of others, that support has been at times either difficult to get, ineffective or both.

I think you should be happy they are even talking with you at all. You and your little group of followers having the same type of problem, well, that don't compute either.

Rhino, support issues aren't a problem when the system works great.  When it works great you don't need the after the fact support.  It's far easier to praise someone when you don't have to test them.

DuH!

To summarize though, I've still got ping.  With having done all the right things I've still got ping.  I'm not a novice with the technology nor with the mechanical side.  I'm also smart enough to know what I'm not familiar with and ask for help.  Which is why help was requested of Zippers for further more sophisiticated responses or revisions in the map.  But I've still got ping...

Have already received a response from Fitzmaurice with timing alternatives to try myself on top of what his revision offered.  Most are steps I'd gone through before with the old map.  But I'll gladly try it one more time with the revised map just because giving them every opportunity to make it right is the right thing to do. 

That's nice, hope that does something for you.

Fitzmaurice is now making an effort.  That is a profound improvement on the company representative's performance previously.  Whether the effort is successful or not is yet to be seen.  The proof of the pudding will be in the eating.  And I've still got ping.

You talk to much and spew big words, and describe little. Before Zippers will even consider buying it back, there is a long road of anaylsis that will include a trip to the factory to let them sort it out. I for one, am very very interested in the outcome, because it will be made right. I want to know what was wrong, so everyone can learn from this one about the mysterious ping that won't go away.   Me, I would be pulling it down ASAP and take a look at some vitals that may be a contributing factor.  But you already said everything is perfect on the install didn't you. Hope you took pictures.

Rhino

[Twolanerider]

You talk to much and spew big words, and describe little. Before Zippers will even consider buying it back, there is a long road of anaylsis that will include a trip to the factory to let them sort it out. I for one, am very very interested in the outcome, because it will be made right. I want to know what was wrong, so everyone can learn from this one about the mysterious ping that won't go away.   Me, I would be pulling it down ASAP and take a look at some vitals that may be a contributing factor.  But you already said everything is perfect on the install didn't you. Hope you took pictures

Hey Scot, how was the ABQ trip?  Any good road stories?  Bill, is Anne all packed for the Nelson trip yet.  Spider, how's your dad doing?  And how about those Mets?

[Ironhorse]

TwoLaneRider,

Just a suggestion here. It's a difficult one, but I know it can be done. If I'm way out of line, tell me to go have a cup of "Shut the Heck up", and I will. When I was having my ORIGINAL Marelli issues (which were very similar to yours in that regardless of what I did, the bike ran like crap) over a year ago, I made a "telephone appointment" with Dan Fitz. It took me two whole days of clearing my calendar and waiting by the phone for him to call, but eventually I finally did get to speak to him.

Anyway, make this appointment with the sole purpose of having him walk you through everything live time. Set your phone up with a hands free set, and have the bike cold and hooked up to the PC. If you have another PC, log onto the internet in case he needs to e-mail you a new adjusted MAP. This way he can tell you how to adjust the flux-capacitor, change the di-lithium crystals, and reverse polarize the whatchamacallit, and do it all direct and live. That's what we did. The bad news is after all that he never did get the bike to run decent, and I had to leave it with a tuner who understood the T-Max software. But that saga is for another day

Anyway, give that idea a thought. And if you can't get Danny Fitz on the phone, maybe Rhino might be able to give you live phone tech support. I hope my suggestions don't cause problems on the board or piss more people off. I'm not trying to stick my nose in other peoples lives and business, I'm just trying to help TwoLane get his issue resolved.

Anyway, like I said, if you want me to pull this post and delete it, let me know and I will.

Mark

[Twolanerider]

TwoLaneRider,

Just a suggestion here. It's a difficult one, but I know it can be done. If I'm way out of line, tell me to go have a cup of "Shut the Heck up", and I will. When I was having my ORIGINAL Marelli issues (which were very similar to yours in that regardless of what I did, the bike ran like crap) over a year ago, I made a "telephone appointment" with Dan Fitz. It took me two whole days of clearing my calendar and waiting by the phone for him to call, but eventually I finally did get to speak to him.

Anyway, make this appointment with the sole purpose of having him walk you through everything live time. Set your phone up with a hands free set, and have the bike cold and hooked up to the PC. If you have another PC, log onto the internet in case he needs to e-mail you a new adjusted MAP. This way he can tell you how to adjust the flux-capacitor, change the di-lithium crystals, and reverse polarize the whatchamacallit, and do it all direct and live. That's what we did. The bad news is after all that he never did get the bike to run decent, and I had to leave it with a tuner who understood the T-Max software. But that saga is for another day

Anyway, give that idea a thought. And if you can't get Danny Fitz on the phone, maybe Rhino might be able to give you live phone tech support. I hope my suggestions don't cause problems on the board or piss more people off. I'm not trying to stick my nose in other peoples lives and business, I'm just trying to help TwoLane get his issue resolved.

Anyway, like I said, if you want me to pull this post and delete it, let me know and I will.

Mark

Hi Mark, no problem with the idea.  If they thought they could impart something different in real time that isn't accurately detailed in the written directions I'd be more than willing to listen.  No problem at all.

As is all the parts have been on and off to check connections, continuity across every connector has been verified, a spare o2 sensor has been used in each of the pipes, all linking and monitoring functions have been verified, maps checked and compared before and after loads, etc etc etc.  That was all done before I ever tried to get support from the company.

The latest versions of the written directions supplied by the company were used including the document supplied last night with the revised map.  So while I am absolutely certain the map is loaded, links are established and communication is ongoing, etc etc etc I am perfectly willing to listen to any other idea they might have.  Have said exactly that before.

The current email pending to Fitzmaurice basically asks if any other ideas might be beneficial.  Since it's their product and their familiarity with it I'd hope they'd share any such ideas if they've been beneficial previously.  When you did this was there any part of the setup/installation you were walked through that was undocumented?

[Eqcons]

You and your little group of followers having the same type of problem, well, that don't compute either.

Ron, hope you're not aiming that at me.  I'm not anyone's follower, but I can assure you that the pinking problems I have are very real, as is the continual overheating. I am grateful for the help you gave me, and I know that the map I have is loaded properly, and - except for the low end slight richening that you took me through - unmodified by me.  Computers are my business, so there's nothing on the computing side I got wrong.

My bike is simple - stock 110", K&N air filter, HD touring mufflers on V&H true dual headers.  In hot weather, if I open the throttle wide, the bike pinks like crazy, even a few minutes stuck in slow traffic and my engine light comes on, and the muffler for the rear cylinder has gone gold. I have 2200 miles on this setup, long enough for the TMAT to learn, surely - but the bottom line is the bike pinks and runs WAY too hot.  That just is not right, is it?

Jim

[Ironhorse]

When you did this was there any part of the setup/installation you were walked through that was undocumented?

No, it was basically following the same directions, nothing new or undocumented. To a low tech kind of guy like me it was nice having them explain what every step was and why it was important to do it in sequence. Jeez I hope you get this thing resolved soon. I've been in your shoes with Zippers so I know the level of high dollar, high expectation, and high frustration that you are dealing with.

Good Luck

[SBB]

Quote from: Rhino on Yesterday at 11:24:13 PM
You and your little group of followers having the same type of problem, well, that don't compute either.


Damn!
The cows have come home.
Hell has froze over.
A follower of TwoLane. (OMG, my reputation has gone down the crapper)
Lets set the record straight.

I don't follow no stankin pingin motorsycle.
But I do respect the mans efforts to get it right!


My take on the T max situation is this.
As a potential customer of the T max system on my Frontier or any of the other bikes I own, I decided to go to the horses mouth.
At Myrtle Beach I talked to Danny Fitzmaurice about how installation and follow up support would work for me if I purchased a T max. My decision after that conversation was that I needed to stay away from his product unless I was willing to move to Maryland or real close to a T max tuning center. Neither of those choices are an option to me.
So I passed on the T max system.

I have the utmost respect for people that have computer knowledge.
On a scale of 1 - 10, with 10 being the most knowledgeable and 1 being a computer dummy I would rank my computer skills at about a 1.75.
At a 1.75 ranking, I'm thinking there are many more out there just like me that know as little as I do about this stuff.
Knowing how little I know about the subject and knowing how much it seems to require to know how to deal with the T max is the main reason I passed on the system.

Reminds me of a conversation with Brian (Hogasm) at Myrtle Beach. He said he had heard T man was scared to even try the T max. At that time I thought that was a strange statement but now with hindsight I have to agree.
I am to!


Good luck to all!


S
  /
    B

[Chief]

I feel like George Kennedy in Airplane, continuing to stick my head in the cockpit door....

I feel your pain and wish you a speedy resolution to your problems.

[Hoist!]

Quote from: Rhino on Yesterday at 11:24:13 PM
You and your little group of followers having the same type of problem, well, that don't compute either.


Damn!
The cows have come home.
Hell has froze over.
A follower of TwoLane. (OMG, my reputation has gone down the crapper)
Lets set the record straight.

I don't follow no stankin pingin motorsycle.
But I do respect the mans efforts to get it right!


My take on the T max situation is this.
As a potential customer of the T max system on my Frontier or any of the other bikes I own, I decided to go to the horses mouth.
At Myrtle Beach I talked to Danny Fitzmaurice about how installation and follow up support would work for me if I purchased a T max. My decision after that conversation was that I needed to stay away from his product unless I was willing to move to Maryland or real close to a T max tuning center. Neither of those choices are an option to me.
So I passed on the T max system.

I have the utmost respect for people that have computer knowledge.
On a scale of 1 - 10, with 10 being the most knowledgeable and 1 being a computer dummy I would rank my computer skills at about a 1.75.
At a 1.75 ranking, I'm thinking there are many more out there just like me that know as little as I do about this stuff.
Knowing how little I know about the subject and knowing how much it seems to require to know how to deal with the T max is the main reason I passed on the system.

Reminds me of a conversation with Brian (Hogasm) at Myrtle Beach. He said he had heard T man was scared to even try the T max. At that time I thought that was a strange statement but now with hindsight I have to agree.
I am to!


Good luck to all!


S
  /
    B

I agree Chip. It seems you need to know too much about computer programs, and have too much involvement in trying try to tweak or correct this thing, for me. I just want my bike tuned properly by an expert on a Dyno, and forget it. This thing is way overmarketed as a simple, plug-and-play device, that magically tunes itself. If so many people are causing their own issues with the installation and adjustment of this device, it must not work as well, or be as simple as they claim it is. It's wrong for one expert here to downplay other member's problems, or blame the end user, to defend the unresponsive manufacturer! Our members have real issues here and the mfr. is being difficult in their support and responsiveness. They should not be chastised by another member who minimizes their problem in support of said vendor. As the "site expert" of the TMAT system, you should have more consideration of these member's problems. It's not your problem, so if you don't want to be involved, don't! But if you do get involved, you should be more supportive and understanding of them instead of chastising them! JMO! Hoist!

[ultrafxr]

I agree Chip. It seems you need to know too much about computer programs, and have too much involvement in trying try to tweak or correct this thing, for me. I just want my bike tuned properly by an expert on a Dyno, and forget it. This thing is way overmarketed as a simple, plug-and-play device, that magically tunes itself. If so many people are causing their own issues with the installation and adjustment of this device, it must not work as well, or be as simple as they claim it is. It's wrong for one expert here to downplay other member's problems, or blame the end user, to defend the unresponsive manufacturer! Our members have real issues here and the mfr. is being difficult in their support and responsiveness. They should not be chastised by another member who minimizes their problem in support of said vendor. As the "site expert" of the TMAT system, you should have more consideration of these member's problems. It's not your problem, so if you don't want to be involved, don't! But if you do get involved, you should be more supportive and understanding of them instead of chastising them! JMO! Hoist!

Well said Hoist.  Here, have a cold one on me.   

[bc]

...
Fitzmaurice is now making an effort.  That is a profound improvement on the company representative's performance previously.  Whether the effort is successful or not is yet to be seen.  The proof of the pudding will be in the eating.  And I've still got ping.

Man, you have much more patience than I do.  I'd dump the POS.  As for Zippers, I can't say a lot - my only exposure was a couple of calls to them to talk about a Thundermax.  Even so, I sat on hold for 20 minutes or more each time, and frankly thought the reps I talked to were condescending to the point of being dismissive about my questions.  I know some of you on this thread have had good experiences with them, but when I get red flags up front, I walk.

bc

[Rhino]

I have one more piece of diagnostics to try that may at least narrow down the problem. As you can tell, I am sharing a lot of frustration, and can't get a grasp on it.

If I am correct, you had at one time mentioned that you added a power commander and a tune on this bike, and noted that it ran fine.

Well, is it possible the sensors are bad on the Autotune?   Before anything, I would try the following before tearing into it again.  Disable the sensors, and set the AFR's in override? for 12.5 or richer across the board and take it for a ride.  If i am not mistaken, disabling the closed loop from the module may do this, but I cant read enough to go over that detail.  Perhaps this process of elimination will help, and at least feed the motor the extra fuel. 

At least you could discover if the AFR metering side is actual hampering the flow inadvertantly.   A 02 sensor can go bad, or, it can get coated, and send erroneous signals to the TMAX. 


Rhino

[Eqcons]

Well, the plot thickens.  This morning I went out to start my bike, and it will not fire on the rear cylinder at all. It has fuel, it has a spark, swapped the plugs, but nothing.

Got it hauled to the dealer tech area at the rally by a breakdown truck, their first reaction?  Non standard ECM so your warranty is void.....

So, here I am 2500 miles from home, I don't speak the language, no bike, and no vacation....  If I discover that this is a problem with the TMAT, I'm going to be a little annoyed.

Ron, do you know any circumstances under which the TMAT will "turn off" the rear cylinder on a bike when it's stone cold?

Jim

[Hoist!]

Well, the plot thickens.  This morning I went out to start my bike, and it will not fire on the rear cylinder at all. It has fuel, it has a spark, swapped the plugs, but nothing.

Got it hauled to the dealer tech area at the rally by a breakdown truck, their first reaction?  Non standard ECM so your warranty is void.....

So, here I am 2500 miles from home, I don't speak the language, no bike, and no vacation....  If I discover that this is a problem with the TMAT, I'm going to be a little annoyed.

Ron, do you know any circumstances under which the TMAT will "turn off" the rear cylinder on a bike when it's stone cold?

Jim

Jim, this sounds like the "trip from hell". Glad your JB Weld fix is holding up. Shame about the TMAT. Did you carry your original ECM with you? Probably a stupid question. I'm sure you would have tried swapping it. If you do have it, maybe you can pick up a PC III and throw it on with a canned map, so you can continue your trip. This TMAT thing is appearing to be more trouble than it's worth. Good luck Jim! Hoist!