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[Twolanerider]

I live relatively close to Zippers and had them do the complete install and tune. 

Still looking for trends and other data that might be instructive.  In this thread and in the now large volume of PMs that have come in from other gentlemen sharing their experiences think I'm seeing one constant.

No one who has said they actually had their bike specifically tuned was having a problem.  I understand this will likely be a much smaller cohort than those that just bought the hardware and installed it as we're told we can do.  But are there any viewers to this thread that have had their bike tuned by Zippers or other creditable Thundermax tuner who still had a driveability issue?

HDFR, when your bike was tuned at their shop were you given a warning similar to what Fr8trn described about their tuning efforts being dangerous to the bike?  When you got the bike did you see any signs of abuse?  Or was their care and service of seemingly good quality?

I'm currently of a mind that my latest suggestion to Zippers was a fair one.  I put a fair bit of time, with a reasonable level of insight and skill behind it, in to working with the original map.  They also offered a revised map which, unfortunately, made only the slightest bit of difference.

From there we might go through many steps.  Tuning their product is (apparently) the one panacea solution to correcting their product.  Since my travel deadline is near going to Plan B now is really my only alternative.  We'd have more time if close to a month hadn't been lost from first phone calls to them to support efforts actually being supplied hadn't been lost.  But that's irrelevant now.  It still seems (at least to me) a fair suggestion that if I'd make the trip they'd tune the bike to correct the problem (at least one would hope it could be corrected).

[Twolanerider]

TWO - I tried a couple times to get Fitz on the phone, but we palyed phone tag, I had wanted to throw somethng by him re the 'problem'. 

Rhino, thank you for the suggestions.  Not to the extent you suggested but I had tried something similar when working with it initially on my own.

Given the time issue before me right now any alternatives worked through are going to potentially push the travel deadline.  That's a problem (for me, not for anyone else).  Fitzmaurice has offered a suggestion as the next step he wants me to try that will, apparently, be followed by other "surgical" steps.  It's something that sounds like it could take awhile.

Since I can't devote all the spare time to sorting out the issue with the Zippers hardware unfortunately it might not even get worked on each day.  Nor do we know how effective such a process will end up being.  Any "steps" I work through at this point will need to be Fitzmaurice's just because of the time issue at this point.  Not that I don't appreciate your later suggestions here.  I do.  Just would only have the time to even consider riding one horse at a time right now.

[Twolanerider]

FWB??

oh, Friend With Benefits 

[SCRM-R]

No one who has said they actually had their bike specifically tuned was having a problem.

Twolane, as I stated in an earlier PM to you, I've been experiencing the same pinging problem on my Zipper's 117" kit with ThunderMax.  Not running the autotune, just their canned map for this build.  I have an appointment on 7/13 with a Zipper's authorized tuner in central Fl, so I'll know then if he can tune it out.  I'll have the original ECM and RT in my hip pocket just in case, because if he can't tune it out with the TM, I'm jerking it out right then and there with no hesitation or other deliberation in that regard.  I built this motor to ride hard, and I'm tired of pussyfootin' around because I live in a hot climate.  Do hope I can keep the TM though...but no regrets if I can't.  I'll let you know if he has any success...

[Hoist!]

Twolane, as I stated in an earlier PM to you, I've been experiencing the same pinging problem on my Zipper's 117" kit with ThunderMax.  Not running the autotune, just their canned map for this build.  I have an appointment on 7/13 with a Zipper's authorized tuner in central Fl, so I'll know then if he can tune it out.  I'll have the original ECM and RT in my hip pocket just in case, because if he can't tune it out with the TM, I'm jerking it out right then and there with no hesitation or other deliberation in that regard.  I built this motor to ride hard, and I'm tired of pussyfootin' around because I live in a hot climate.  Do hope I can keep the TM though...but no regrets if I can't.  I'll let you know if he has any success...

Right attitude SCRM-R! Got to get it right! It's Only $Money$...And You Can Make Some More!! Hoist!

[SCRM-R]

Right attitude SCRM-R! Got to get it right! It's Only $Money$...And You Can Make Some More!! Hoist!

Let's see now...where have I heard that?  Just got back from a 200 mile ride today...97 degrees...pinging BAD when you roll on the throttle from about 2500 to 3500 rpm's.  I'm just tired of it, so I'm gonna see if it can be tuned out without making a eunuch out of the motor.

[Hoist!]

Let's see now...where have I heard that? :nixweiss:Just got back from a 200 mile ride today...97 degrees...pinging BAD when you roll on the throttle from about 2500 to 3500 rpm's.  I'm just tired of it, so I'm gonna see if it can be tuned out without making a eunuch out of the motor.

I think it can be tuned out. I'm convinced from all this, that you can't use canned maps in these TMAT's. To me, the TM needs to be properly setup on a Dyno, and then let the AT work in from there. Good luck with your tune. Hoist!

[Twolanerider]

Twolane, as I stated in an earlier PM to you, I've been experiencing the same pinging problem on my Zipper's 117" kit with ThunderMax.  Not running the autotune, just their canned map for this build.  I have an appointment on 7/13 with a Zipper's authorized tuner in central Fl, so I'll know then if he can tune it out.  I'll have the original ECM and RT in my hip pocket just in case, because if he can't tune it out with the TM, I'm jerking it out right then and there with no hesitation or other deliberation in that regard.  I built this motor to ride hard, and I'm tired of pussyfootin' around because I live in a hot climate.  Do hope I can keep the TM though...but no regrets if I can't.  I'll let you know if he has any success...

I'm in essentially the same position SCRM. 

Have spent a fair bit of time trying the logical alternatives we might try ourselves and troubleshooting everything.  In to a time crunch now where, even were I so inclined to spend a few weeks further experimenting and exploring and trying various directed options, the time doesn't allow it to happen at this moment.

I will be very interested in your tuning experience.  I would not be against keeping the system on the bike.  But, like you, if it has to come off it has to come off.  No tears because of it.  The only important thing is that the bike runs well and does so withing having to continue dinking with it.

The issue you, I and others are experiencing is unfortunately real.  It also hasn't bee soluble by the things we'd commonly try. That and all other things being considered in the mix I don't think it's unwarranted to ask the mftr to just tune it.  That is allowing them the absolute opportunity to make their system function as promised.  I'll supply the half-continental travel at a mutually agreeable schedule and they supply a day (or a half day, or whatever).  They can use the experience to benefit many others in their client base (if they're so inclined).

If they can then tune it out that's great.  Really would be the ideal answer for them and me.  If they can't they'd have to address that at the time.  Will just have to see the first of the week if they're willing to stand up and address the problem this way.

Good luck with yours man.  Hope it goes well.  Will look forward to your before and after report.

[Unbalanced]

SCRM-R are you coming down to Holly Hill by chance?  If you would like to meet up for a beverage or something please let me know.

-harry

[Twolanerider]

I think it can be tuned out. I'm convinced from all this, that you can't use canned maps in these TMAT's. To me, the TM needs to be properly setup on a Dyno, and then let the AT work in from there. Good luck with your tune. Hoist!

Howie, for many of us that is what this experience seems to be stongly suggesting.  Unfortunately that's not the premise the system is sold under. 

If that would too often end up being the case then we're in no appreciably different position then with working with a SERT or PC.  Still need dyno time/expense to make it work.  Some minimal gain after the fact onboard with autotune.  But we're seeing now it can't adjust from even their own base map that (at least in my case) was promised to be "very close" and perfectly "good enough to work from."

The real gain was to be the lack of further need for dyno tuning/time/expense.  If we don't get that (or at least too many of us don't) we end up with no gain on the tuning/time/expense side and and the addition of a product that might present service hazards on the road should there ever be a failure.

It's not an unfair trade to consider losing the further need for tuning time and expense against the potential service hazards of hardware unfamiliar to the rest of the world.  But if you don't get the initial gain it becomes far more difficult to justify the acquired hazard.

[Hoist!]

Howie, for many of us that is what this experience seems to be stongly suggesting.  Unfortunately that's not the premise the system is sold under. 

If that would too often end up being the case then we're in no appreciably different position then with working with a SERT or PC.  Still need dyno time/expense to make it work.  Some minimal gain after the fact onboard with autotune.  But we're seeing now it can't adjust from even their own base map that (at least in my case) was promised to be "very close" and perfectly "good enough to work from."

The real gain was to be the lack of further need for dyno tuning/time/expense.  If we don't get that (or at least too many of us don't) we end up with no gain on the tuning/time/expense side and and the addition of a product that might present service hazards on the road should there ever be a failure.

It's not an unfair trade to consider losing the further need for tuning time and expense against the potential service hazards of hardware unfamiliar to the rest of the world.  But if you don't get the initial gain it becomes far more difficult to justify the acquired hazard.

That sounds great in theory. But no 2 engines are alike. It relies on a Zippers provided base map to start off with. Why would that map necessarily match a particular motor with it's own characteristics? Maybe by coincidence. If it worked as you say, you shouldn't have to touch it at all after they supply it with a "close enough" map. All these adjustments everyone keeps making, are way too much to ask the average guy to have to do. Trial and error to replace a good Dyno tune? A bike should be tuned and forgotten until another mod is made. If you gotta keep fiddling with this thing in trying to replace a real Dyno tune, it just ain't worth it, IMO!

Hoist!

[SCRM-R]

SCRM-R are you coming down to Holly Hill by chance?  If you would like to meet up for a beverage or something please let me know.

-harry

Harry,

I have an appt. with Jim of Braggin' Rights Dyno at 10:00 a.m. on 7/13.  I'm meeting him at Stormy Hill H-D in Clermont...don't know where that is from Holly Hill?  After he finishes with it, which I am expecting to take most of the day, I am traveling on down to Brandon to spend the weekend with my brother.  My brother doesn't ride, but he has promised to take me to a place called Mons Venus....sounds like a thrill ride, he-he.  He said that it would be worth the trip down.    If you want to ride over to Stormy Hill on Friday the 13th, I would be pleased to meet you.

Marvin.

[SCRM-R]

That sounds great in theory. But no 2 engines are alike. It relies on a Zippers provided base map to start off with. Why would that map necessarily match a particular motor with it's own characteristics? Maybe by coincidence. If it worked as you say, you shouldn't have to touch it at all after they supply it with a "close enough" map. All these adjustments everyone keeps making, are way too much to ask the average guy to have to do. Trial and error to replace a good Dyno tune? A bike should be tuned and forgotten until another mod is made. If you gotta keep fiddling with this thing in trying to replace a real Dyno tune, it just ain't worth it, IMO!

Hoist!

I agree wholeheartedly...I'm taking one shot at getting this thing tuned...hope it works...if it doesn't, I'll put the damn thing on Ebay, if I don't chunk it.

[Bagger]

I don't run the TMAT, but I ran across this forum thread discussing it.  Over 1700 posts to this thread on the Zipper Automax Thunder Tune. 

http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93157

[jfh]

HDFR, when your bike was tuned at their shop were you given a warning similar to what Fr8trn described about their tuning efforts being dangerous to the bike?  When you got the bike did you see any signs of abuse?  Or was their care and service of seemingly good quality?

Don,

I received no such warning and there were no indications that the bike had been abused when I received it.  I have done similar projects with Zippers in the past and my experiences have always been positive or I would not have entrusted them to do this one.  I had used the T-Max with a canned map on a Stage 1 2005 FLHT before the AT became available.  Based on my complete satisfaction with that experience, I decided to add the AT capability when they did my current 120" build.  For me, Zipper's is the best local performance shop available, which is the main reason I chose them in the first place.  If I lived in NC, it would have been T-Man Performance or Kendall Johnson, in Florida it probably would have been Cyclerama, and I would have used whatever package they suggested.  Too many variables in these packages for me to be comfortable doing it from long distance.

I just returned from the VA State HOG Rally in Williamsburg where I accompanied a friend who had John Golden tune his motor with a Power Commander.  The motor was built using a package recommended by Bob Wood who also supplied the cams.  My friend followed Bob's recommendation to use Hillside Performance for the machine work on the heads and fitting the pistons.  All components are exactly as prescribed by Bob.  Despite John's best tuning efforts, there remains a detonation issue, similar to what you are describing, that could not be fixed without pulling so much timing that performace suffered unacceptably.  John recommend that my friend provide Bob Wood with the dyno chart and a copy of the map for further analysis.  My point is that tuning alone may not be the answer and the problem may not be exclusive to the T-Max.

I sincerely hope that you get everything sorted out.