Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Unbalanced]

Even having found a combination that works for decent numbers in a touring bike without making it a racer, there is still the issue of what is causing the leaking.   We have an idea of where it is coming from and possibly why it does not mean there is a direct fix if it ends up being linked back to the cases instead of just the heads/gasket and mating on the top of the juggs / studs.   

I wish I had gotten another 04/05/06 and gotten away from the 07 leakers and their leaking heads.   For the money I could have saved several grand so far.   I could have bought an 04/05 with a Jims 120 / 6 speed and still be ahead of the game and had a lot less time spent rebuilding the top end.

[Hoist!]

Are people having issues with the hydraulic tensioners and roller chains used in the ’06 and later Dyna’s and all Big Twins from ’07 up?

djkak

I was going to replace them when I did the cams at 5500 miles. They looked brand new. The whole system seems much sturdier. I feel like I don't need to rush out for gear drive cams, like the earlier system forced you to do.

Hoist!

[grc]

Sounds a little bias Terry! Do not be afraid of the 110's. They can be fixed. And with the right components, they kill 103's numbers wise. This was not the case 6-8 months ago. Some of the secrets to unleashing these motors are starting to emerge now. Personally, go with an '07 and get it setup properly. Anything on this motor can be fixed right, even if you rebuild the entire engine yourself. Save the $$$ Terry's talking about and put it into good engine mods on a 110 instead of a tranny. Any 103's going against 110's at the track in HS?

Hoist!

Howie,

The point is that we shouldn't have to spend thousands to "fix" anything on a brand new $35k motorcycle.  Let's see, I'll sell the SEEG for a $10,000 loss, buy a new CUSE for $34,995 plus the $3,000 average surcharge, plus $2,500 in taxes, and then pay another $5,000 to get the power and reliability that should have been there in the first place, and then another $2000 to bring the suspension into the 21st century, and then another $1,000 to make the seat comfortable enough to ride more than 100 miles, etc., etc., etc.  And when I get all done, after one year the sucker will be worth maybe $25,000-$28,000 max.

For those of you with excessively deep pockets, maybe you don't mind going through all that effort and cash to get a decent bike.  For someone like me, however, there is no way I could justify it even to myself, much less to the better half.  It would make more sense to just start from scratch and build my own bike with top quality aftermarket components.  

I'm sticking with my earlier post; better to keep one of the earlier models and spend what you want on upgrades than to lose your shirt on the trade and then have to spend thousands more to fix the new bike.  Harley management will just have to depend on you rich guys to keep them in business, because I won't be contributing any more to their fat bonuses until they provide a product that doesn't require me to rebuild it.

Jerry

[Hoist!]

Howie,

The point is that we shouldn't have to spend thousands to "fix" anything on a brand new $35k motorcycle.  Let's see, I'll sell the SEEG for a $10,000 loss, buy a new CUSE for $34,995 plus the $3,000 average surcharge, plus $2,500 in taxes, and then pay another $5,000 to get the power and reliability that should have been there in the first place, and then another $2000 to bring the suspension into the 21st century, and then another $1,000 to make the seat comfortable enough to ride more than 100 miles, etc., etc., etc.  And when I get all done, after one year the sucker will be worth maybe $25,000-$28,000 max.

For those of you with excessively deep pockets, maybe you don't mind going through all that effort and cash to get a decent bike.  For someone like me, however, there is no way I could justify it even to myself, much less to the better half.  It would make more sense to just start from scratch and build my own bike with top quality aftermarket components.  

I'm sticking with my earlier post; better to keep one of the earlier models and spend what you want on upgrades than to lose your shirt on the trade and then have to spend thousands more to fix the new bike.  Harley management will just have to depend on you rich guys to keep them in business, because I won't be contributing any more to their fat bonuses until they provide a product that doesn't require me to rebuild it.

Jerry

Jerry, I fully appreciate your take on this issue. This is why I was previously buying a new RK every 2 yeasrs, spending nothing on them, then trading it in for another. I am a working man like most of you and do not have the deep pockets for this either. But certain bikes I consider keepers. My '85 FXWG is one of them. I will probably never buy another street bike. I'll just keep rebuilding this bike as necessary. But to me, the SERK3 was another keeper. I didn't think it would require much at all. But I was wrong about that. I, however made a conscious decision to keep the bike forever. I don't worry about resale. This ain't the 90's anymore, where you rode for free. It's not an investment either. It's a favorite motorcycle that I'd like to keep. And when I realized that it was not what I thought it was, I had a decision to make. If you recall, at one point, I talked about getting rid of it and getting a Rucker.

But as I started becoming more familiar with the bike and it's associated problems, I realized that it's not that bad either. And the bike had enormous potential. Potential to be another one of the best bikes HD ever made. I also know how I ride. No stock HD is good enough for me performance wise. Meaning Engine, suspension and brakes. We know this going in if you've owned HD's before. Nothing surprises me with HD anymore. Hasn't for years. Go buy a '79 Sporster if you wanna know what real grief is! I do feel bad for the first timers that didn't know what they were in for. If you just want a motorcycle that doesn't have all the quirks of a HD, you shouldn't buy one at all. Buy the Bimmer you were speaking of. Or a Jap bike. I'm old school Harley, and am loyal to the brand of bike. Not necessarily loyal to the MoCo, but to the bikes they make, that I love so dearly. So I go overboard on my keepers and do everything I can to make it the way I want it. I know how I ride, and I know how I want my bike setup. I realize that everyone's not like me either. This type of undertaking would definitely be too much for some folks.

I'm a little more seasoned over dealing with these bikes, and don't mind doing this stuff. After all, I'm getting a bike of my dreams out of the deal too! And if you were to buy a new bike built exactly as my SERK is now, you'd be paying at least 50 Grand for it anyway. So in my mind, I'm still ahead of the game. And like I said, I now have the touring bike of my dreams!

Hoist!

[Twolanerider]

Howie,

The point is that we shouldn't have to spend thousands to "fix" anything on a brand new $35k motorcycle.  Let's see, I'll sell the SEEG for a $10,000 loss, buy a new CUSE for $34,995 plus the $3,000 average surcharge, plus $2,500 in taxes, and then pay another $5,000 to get the power and reliability that should have been there in the first place, and then another $2000 to bring the suspension into the 21st century, and then another $1,000 to make the seat comfortable enough to ride more than 100 miles, etc., etc., etc.  And when I get all done, after one year the sucker will be worth maybe $25,000-$28,000 max.

For those of you with excessively deep pockets, maybe you don't mind going through all that effort and cash to get a decent bike.  For someone like me, however, there is no way I could justify it even to myself, much less to the better half.  It would make more sense to just start from scratch and build my own bike with top quality aftermarket components.  

I'm sticking with my earlier post; better to keep one of the earlier models and spend what you want on upgrades than to lose your shirt on the trade and then have to spend thousands more to fix the new bike.  Harley management will just have to depend on you rich guys to keep them in business, because I won't be contributing any more to their fat bonuses until they provide a product that doesn't require me to rebuild it.

Jerry

Jerry, I find myself in agreement with both of you.  Doing what we have to do to these bikes to make them adequate (not just good, but adequate) is truly absurd.  Seats and other basics.

Doing what we then choose to do to make them good (as good as they should be given modern standards) is even more so.  Doing such on an annual or biennial cycle would be, for me at least, fiscually imprudent and simply kind of stooopid.  The only reason the red bike has been treated as well as it has is that is is going to suffer much the same fate as Howie's SERK.  I like the bike so well that it is stuck with me for a long long time.  Knowing that it's a truly multi year budgeted machine allows more options and flexibility.

[grc]

Don and Howie,

I agree, there are many things that we all do to personalize the bikes or to make them better suited to our personal needs.  I have no issue with any of that, and could not reasonably expect the manufacturer to be able to provide a product that meets the needs of such a diverse group straight from the showroom floor.  But I can't support the idea that you should have to rebuild your new engine to get the performance and reliability the manufacturer should provide up front.  Some people will always modify their engines anyway, and to me that fits into the category in my first sentence, personalization.  But the vast majority never go past stage 1, and those folks should receive the performance and reliability they originally paid for without having to wonder if/when their Harley is going to leave them stranded somewhere.  It's bad enough if your barhopper craps out 5 miles from home, but it's an entirely different kettle of fish when your touring bike craps out a thousand or more miles from home.  Seeing Harley screw around for an entire year now with this cylinder/head gasket/whatever problem and still not have a definitive answer gives me about zero confidence that they have either the proper talent or the requisite commitment to fix problems properly and promptly.  What other issues are lurking?  Sorry, but between the 110 engine issues and the new drive-by-wire and ABS systems I wouldn't consider an '08 purchase for myself, nor would I recommend one to a friend. Maybe by 2010 they'll finally give us a SERG and also have the bugs worked out, in the meantime I'll keep fixin' and ridin' the ol' red bike.  And if the red bike gives up the ghost, they still have those Beemer's at about two thirds the price.  

Jerry

[Hoist!]

Don and Howie,

I agree, there are many things that we all do to personalize the bikes or to make them better suited to our personal needs.  I have no issue with any of that, and could not reasonably expect the manufacturer to be able to provide a product that meets the needs of such a diverse group straight from the showroom floor.  But I can't support the idea that you should have to rebuild your new engine to get the performance and reliability the manufacturer should provide up front.  Some people will always modify their engines anyway, and to me that fits into the category in my first sentence, personalization.  But the vast majority never go past stage 1, and those folks should receive the performance and reliability they originally paid for without having to wonder if/when their Harley is going to leave them stranded somewhere.  It's bad enough if your barhopper craps out 5 miles from home, but it's an entirely different kettle of fish when your touring bike craps out a thousand or more miles from home.  Seeing Harley screw around for an entire year now with this cylinder/head gasket/whatever problem and still not have a definitive answer gives me about zero confidence that they have either the proper talent or the requisite commitment to fix problems properly and promptly.  What other issues are lurking?  Sorry, but between the 110 engine issues and the new drive-by-wire and ABS systems I wouldn't consider an '08 purchase for myself, nor would I recommend one to a friend. Maybe by 2010 they'll finally give us a SERG and also have the bugs worked out, in the meantime I'll keep fixin' and ridin' the ol' red bike.  And if the red bike gives up the ghost, they still have those Beemer's at about two thirds the price.  

Jerry

But Jerry, we're knowingly buying engines designed for and from a different era. It's a matter of time before these antiquated designs are outlawed completely. We can't expect technology this old to continue to meet the demands of today's society regarding emissions and sound. Knowing that, you gotta know that each and every year they make them, under stricter and stricter guidelines, that you're sitting on a ticking time bomb if you buy a street legal one. But today (not sure about the '08's yet), you can still modify them to run like they did back in the day (which really isn't very long ago at all). But they weren't very reliable then for other reasons. Now they have the technology to build them great. But they're not allowed to. What a conundrum huh? When they outlaw them, you can ride your water-cooled HD's and not have to worry anymore. But I'll still be riding my '85 FXWG and my '07A FLHRSE3TQ til I drop dead!

Hoist!

[Unbalanced]

Howie,

Aren't you supposed to be out riding your bike and enjoying the decell popping ?    

[SirMichael]

WOW, we really went deep

[Hoist!]

Howie,

Aren't you supposed to be out riding your bike and enjoying the decell popping ?    

I got rid of most of it last night. It's not too bad now. I'm bringing it back the weekend after this one, and after some miles sre on it, for a final, final tune! He wants the bike back and thinks there's an exhaust gasket leak at the rear head with those SE exhaust gaskets I had him use. He's getting me a few sets of crushable Al-asbestos racing gaskets, that he assures me won't leak. I'll keep some spares. And rush hour around here ain't no time for a joyride Harry! I'm really pissed about that pothole, and the possible neck bearing replacement due to it! Heading out again tonight after rush hour. Binx is out with the girls  tonight, and the boys are going for a hell ride!

Hoist!

[Twolanerider]

I got rid of most of it last night. It's not too bad now. I'm bringing it back the weekend after this one, and after some miles sre on it, for a final, final tune! He wants the bike back and thinks there's an exhaust gasket leak at the rear head with those SE exhaust gaskets I had him use. He's getting me a few sets of crushable Al-asbestos racing gaskets, that he assures me won't leak. I'll keep some spares. And rush hour around here ain't no time for a joyride Harry! I'm really pissed about that pothole, and the possible neck bearing replacement due to it! Heading out again tonight after rush hour. Binx is out with the girls  tonight, and the boys are going for a hell ride!

Hoist!

Look for silver linings where you can find them Howie.  Get the guy to change the neck bearings while he's changing the handlebars.  At least a little bit of the work will already be done.  And after all, you didn't wreck  .

[grc]

But Jerry, we're knowingly buying engines designed for and from a different era. It's a matter of time before these antiquated designs are outlawed completely. We can't expect technology this old to continue to meet the demands of today's society regarding emissions and sound. Knowing that, you gotta know that each and every year they make them, under stricter and stricter guidelines, that you're sitting on a ticking time bomb if you buy a street legal one. But today (not sure about the '08's yet), you can still modify them to run like they did back in the day (which really isn't very long ago at all). But they weren't very reliable then for other reasons. Now they have the technology to build them great. But they're not allowed to. What a conundrum huh? When they outlaw them, you can ride your water-cooled HD's and not have to worry anymore. But I'll still be riding my '85 FXWG and my '07A FLHRSE3TQ til I drop dead!

Hoist!

OK Howie, so what you're telling me is that H-D is perpetrating a massive fraud on their customers and that we should all storm the corporate offices and demand refunds right before we storm Washington and demand action from the Attorney General.  Or at the very least we should only use a Harley for show, and buy something else if we need reliable transport.  

I don't buy into the BS that these issues are caused by tightening EPA standards.  Other folks seem to be able to produce air cooled engines that meet the regs without going into instant meltdown, and the EPA has absolutely nothing to do with leaking cylinders, defective crankshafts, poorly designed compression releases, electrical failures, etc.  Face it, the problem is that your beloved MoCo is sticking it to you because they can get away with it.  Trust me, I've lived through similar situations in the auto industry and I can assure you that the worm can turn very quickly.  As in the domestic producers going from over 80% of the market to less than 50%, starting in 1980 when consumers stopped buying the domestic junk of the day in droves.  If I remember correctly, '78-'79 was a record sales year and I was working 10-12 hours a day, 6 days a week.  The following year I and well over 100,000 other folks were laid off as half the domestic production capacity was eliminated through plant closings or 2nd shift eliminations.  The reason I get wound up about this subject goes back to that experience and the hardships it created, many of which persist to this day in certain parts of the country.

Oh well, I guess I'll retire the soapbox for a little while.  The fact that you are now happy with your SERK makes me happy for you.  And if you think about it, what you've been saying about fixing it up the way you want it and keeping it forever is very similar to what I posted earlier that helped start this little debate (about keeping one of the older models and upgrading it rather than buying an '08).  And BTW, I hope you know none of this is meant to be personal, it's just me venting about one of my pet peeves and offering my heartfelt advice to those who are a little nervous about the new models.

Jerry

[Hoist!]

OK Howie, so what you're telling me is that H-D is perpetrating a massive fraud on their customers and that we should all storm the corporate offices and demand refunds right before we storm Washington and demand action from the Attorney General.  Or at the very least we should only use a Harley for show, and buy something else if we need reliable transport.  

I don't buy into the BS that these issues are caused by tightening EPA standards.  Other folks seem to be able to produce air cooled engines that meet the regs without going into instant meltdown, and the EPA has absolutely nothing to do with leaking cylinders, defective crankshafts, poorly designed compression releases, electrical failures, etc.  Face it, the problem is that your beloved MoCo is sticking it to you because they can get away with it.  Trust me, I've lived through similar situations in the auto industry and I can assure you that the worm can turn very quickly.  As in the domestic producers going from over 80% of the market to less than 50%, starting in 1980 when consumers stopped buying the domestic junk of the day in droves.  If I remember correctly, '78-'79 was a record sales year and I was working 10-12 hours a day, 6 days a week.  The following year I and well over 100,000 other folks were laid off as half the domestic production capacity was eliminated through plant closings or 2nd shift eliminations.  The reason I get wound up about this subject goes back to that experience and the hardships it created, many of which persist to this day in certain parts of the country.

Oh well, I guess I'll retire the soapbox for a little while.  The fact that you are now happy with your SERK makes me happy for you.  And if you think about it, what you've been saying about fixing it up the way you want it and keeping it forever is very similar to what I posted earlier that helped start this little debate (about keeping one of the older models and upgrading it rather than buying an '08).  And BTW, I hope you know none of this is meant to be personal, it's just me venting about one of my pet peeves and offering my heartfelt advice to those who are a little nervous about the new models.

Jerry

Jerry, I absolutely know none of this is personal. You've always been a fair and helpful person to anyone that needs it. So don't even mention it. I like to follow your exploits as you get into discussions about the MoCo. You're very passionate about it, which means you love it too! I offer my counterpoints to your discussions, as I'm not as passionate about the MoCo itself, just the bikes. They're corporate BS like all the rest of these giant corporations. It's all about ROI and the Shareholder. This is why we see what we see on these bikes. These decisions are made by the beancounters. One extra engine/hr/man. Get rid of the Timkins. Aftermarket's killing them w/big engines, we better get one too. Rush it out the door unproven and undertested. I've been with big corporations my whole career, and unfortunately, they all operate the same.

But I got bit years ago by the sound and feel of a big American V-Twin, flywheel engine motorcycle! What can I say. That's been my life for many years now. Do I like the direction they've gone the last 10 years or so? No, not at all. But I try not to get too hung up on that stuff, knowing overall, that since their basic design hasn't changed much at all for decades, I'll be able to take care of it myself. Only if I think the bike is something special. Like I said, my past RK's have been my touring platform and I just traded them in every 2 years, without spending a dime on them. Yeah, they were pretty lethargic. But I have my keeper street bikes to give me my thrill. Until that '07 SERK. I got bit by the bug again because I saw the potential of this bike for me. I was fortunate enough to find this Forum, where extremely knowledgable CVO experts reside. I learned an awful lot, real fast here. I paid very close attention to everything I could. And in a short time I was up to speed on modern day HD and how to deal with it. If you keep a bike for a long time, you do everything on your own dime. So I was used to that part. I decided early on that the bike was worth keeping. So, I did what I had to do to be happy.

Please don't mistake what I do myself, for my own reasons, as defending the MoCo for how these bikes go out today. It's totally disgraceful and they should be ashamed! But it's not changing either. These decisions are made in Board Rooms by Accountants and Executives. The Engineers get their marching orders and budgets and off they go. They can't change jobs easily because there's no real competition in the American V-Twin, Flywheel Motor, New Motorcycle market. HD knows that too. I'm nowhere near as staunch as you in blasting them for what they've done to the product. But we are on the same page regarding that. I just choose not spend much time worrying about it. I spend it figuring out how to get around it and make it acceptable to me. And I don't really expect anyone to follow my approach to this. I'm a little over-the-top into this stuff, and get a little anal about it.

I sincerely thank you for all the help you've provided to me over the last 9 months, whether you know you have or not. I hope you always stay as passionate about this as you are today. And I hope you can continue to offer the invaluable technical assistance to everyone as you've been doing. You're AOK in my book Jerry!

Hoist!

[Chief]

As far as I know, the 08's will suffer the same gasket issue that plague the 07's because they use the same parts on the rear cylinder, at least for right now.

It is my belief that Harley is currently working on the problem and will come up with a fix. When? I don't know. First they tried a new gasket (cheap fix) which didn't work.

This information came from Harley in the form of nudge, nudge, wink, wink, 'don't do anything right now'. I take that to mean "We know there is a problem. We are working on a fix but can't really say anything about it right now."

Right now, I've decide to see how this plays out and enjoy my bike in the meantime. I'm happier to have a rideable leaker at home than a torn apart skeleton at the dealer waiting for parts.

YMMV

[Vosselman (NL - Europe)]

Unbalanced,

Can you tell us some more...

Thanks!

Even having found a combination that works for decent numbers in a touring bike without making it a racer, there is still the issue of what is causing the leaking.   We have an idea of where it is coming from and possibly why it does not mean there is a direct fix if it ends up being linked back to the cases instead of just the heads/gasket and mating on the top of the juggs / studs.