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[Twolanerider]

Oh yeah, i forgot the timing line on the plugs indicated the timing is not advanced enough either.

[pappy2]

Actually, I think Zippers is trying to work with me inside their box.

[DCFIREMANN]

Pappy I have dealt with Zippers for over 15 years. I have had nothing but a good working realationship working with them. The Thunder max ECM is the most advanced ECM for your Harley at this time. This set up will out perform the H/D ECM with either a R/T or a P/C. I know how mine runs and I know how yours should run. I still think the heat and humids down there are part of the problem the changing of the heads will also cause a problem if the flow numbers changed. Be patient they will get it right. I put myself out on a limb talking about the set/up and how good ir performs. I know how mine runs. I am going to make it a point to try to get some dyno time with mine next week so I can see numbers before the tear down.

After talking to the Zippers crew down at Myrtle I know how committed they are with Harley fuel injection. They know this is where the future is going and they know they got in on the ground floor. I can tell you this unit is on the cutting edge as far as fuel injection technology goes. I can tell you I was a little shy at first ( I have had carbs all my life) I still don't like the fact everytime you make a change you need a tuner. The bike ran good with a S/E air cleaner,Thunder header and a power commander. When I made the changes I could not believe the difference at 3500 it really cut loose and ran great all the way to 6150 RPM. I am convinced this was a great move for me as it should be for everyone who makes this purchase.

Be patient they will get it right. I have known these guys for toooooo long. I know that they have a schedule with thier dyno and it runs all day. They will get it right for you.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[mr_magoo]

I didn't know there was a head change,  05 still lists the heads with an 03 part #??

[DCFIREMANN]

I didn't know there was a head change,

[hd2003-se2005]

OK I will say it!

I'm with TwoLane on this one

AAAAARGHHHHHH I feel better!

Unless I'm told upfront I'm going to be the test case I expect parts to work to full potential when they are installed.

The heat and humidity always play a part in the tuning but that issue is a pimple on a dimple on a gnats a$$ compared to what the real problem is.

YOU NEED A TUNER (a good dyno man)

Does Zippers recommend someone in your part of the country that can tune this ECM?
Or are you the test case?

Did you get a sweet deal to be the test case?

Your line that "maybe I need to convince them to get a new map rather than fix the one I got" is the key to your problem.
Convince them HELL, they should be wanting and eager to help you solve this problem.

And Fireman as you said "they know where the future is going",, but if they can't solve the problems of the present then what good is having "the most advanced ECM unit at this time"?

Here's the key
IMHO
Zippers equipment is very very fine equipment
But take Hubbards bike.
Anyone could have built Hubbards motor using the Zippers parts,
But Hubbard chose a master engine builder. He chose one of the best.

You take the finest equipment and the finest motor builder and the very best tuner, and what do you get ------>Maudie, a 120" rocket that flys and lives with Hubbard as pilot.

Get my drift Pappy
Your 1/2 way there, find someone as quality as the parts you have purchased to tune it and you will be happy!

[smiley=bigok.gif]

[HUBBARD]

Yeah, 'er 'uh, hd2003,
 Couldn't have said it better myself, Kid! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]  Here!  Here! [smiley=beerchug.gif]  That's H20 in mine, JCZ! [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]  Later--HUBBARD

[thechop107]

Lots-o-drama here.  Previous posts from Pappy stated that he was extreemly happy with the results of his upgrades - then suddenly he wasn't happy anymore after a dyno test.  Man - how can something that feels so good suddenly be so bad?  

I don't think Pappy signed up to be a lab rat until he hit the dyno.  As stated in a recent post, it's quite possible that when this test run was performed, the bike in question was  not tested at full operating temp.  Sophisticated EFI management systems have many correction factors built in to calibrate fuel based on engine temp.  You can perform 5 different test runs at 5 different engine temps and you will see 5 differents readings, each one higher as temperatures increase toward full operating temp.  Fuel requirements change with engine temp - it's that simple.  

As far as tuning goes - the Zipper's ECM includes a very precise map, tuned to a specific application.  It also includes software which will allow additional fine tuning to accomodate basic changes to the original application, but you are not limited there.  Additional maps are available for various combinations and engine displacements.  A competent tuner will do back flips once he becomes familiar with this software - it can be used on unlimited applications once you learn how to use it.  This is the same ECM that comes in all of Zippers EFI Muscle kits - up to 120CI.  The Zipper guys are serious about what they do and have lots of horse power behind them when it comes to EFI.  If you are having a problem I'm sure that they want to know.

Most of the problems of the present are not really problems at all, just a lack of understanding mixed with too much chat on the internet.

I think I'll go ride now.

The Chop

[pappy2]

I am not sure but it seems odd to me that all the posts by the Chop, coincidentally located in Maryland (the home of Zippers)  are related to praising the Zippers stuff and he/she/it seems to know alot more about this problem than I have posted.  Any chance you are affiliated with Zippers?  If so, it seems that you should identify yourself accordingly and spend your time making me happy with your product and let me do the talking about how good it is.  

I am not sure that I agree the drama is out of place here as my riding satisfaction is tainted seriously by the dyno results that were done.

Inspection of the plugs also indicates somewhat rich mixture and somewhat retarded timing so the dyno is not alone in the pot of confusion.

I only want to get the thing going as intended and have tried my best to be patient with Zippers waiting for answers.  Despite repeated requests over the last weekand a half, I have yet to get the name of a tuner in my area that is familiar with the ECM software who can make it sing and remain more than willing to take the bike to such a person if they exist.  To expect me to develop such expertise in South Florida on my nickel seems to be unreasonable, especially with access only to the limited end user software rather than the full tuning software they claim to have but are unwilling to allow me to use.

Maybe the Chop is familiar enough with these guys to help find a Zippers qualified tuner in South Florida and get this thing resolved.  If no such animal exists, I have offered to help find a qualified tuner to learn the Zippers system and use my bike as the lab rat for this purpose.  

Since no such tuner has been identified, I have also agreed to take the bike back to a dyno and rerun the tests once they have confirmed this is their best shot at a base map for the thing and give me detailed instructions how to get the dyno runs they need to understand the results fully and remove any further doubts about the correct conditions for the test.  If these results are not excellent with respect to the power and AF curves, I expect to either have it dyno tuned somewhere near here soon at their cost or send the thing back and take another route to achieve my performance objectives.

If the moderators want me to stop posting on this subject, I will gladly honor their request.  JP [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

   

[hd2003-se2005]

Pappy

Keep on posting!
We all want your motor RIGHT!

I'm no moderator [smiley=cry2.gif].
(but on a side topic, I did apply for the moderator job and when I listed Hubbard, DJW, BLM777,Spyder and Otis as references they threw out my application. Although I did list my redemming qualities as being maladjusted, antisocial and darn mean. On that part they said I would fit right in!)

You have paid your money and deserve some satisfaction. Stay on them. Maybe someone can tell you who to talk to about this problem instead of just singing mindless praises of how great they are.

Again, stay on their a$$.
Where is Fireman when we need him?

[smiley=nixweiss.gif]

[Fatboy]

Pappy2,

In previous post's you mentioned you were happy with the performance mods you did. Then the initial dyno runs presented some number's that were viewed as unfavorable, my question is the ride still as good as when the mods were made?

If yes, I'd have it retested on a different dyno. Some dyno's use 875 pound wheels others can be 1180 pounds, so same bike will turn higher number's on the lighter wheel. The a/f number's you posted also needs tweaking if

[thechop107]

Pappy,
I'm not much on internet chat, however I do peek in from time to time to see what the latest buzz is about.  After being involved in the motorcycle industry for the past 18 years, I am very familiar with Zipper's and the engine management components that you are using.  I have been involved in similar situations and have always been able to get support when needed, from Zipper's, when it comes to their products- therefore, I was quite surprized to read numberous posts about an unwillingness to give support or to provide a solution to such a questionable issue.  Sorry if I the drama thing struck a nerve, my post was in response to your many responses from other subscribers who were eager to shed negative light.

It's always best to contact a manufacturer or service provider directly if you are having a discrepency with a product or service.

If the product was purchased direct from the manufacturer, a reputable manufacturer would first try to remediate the issue at hand direct with the end user either by exchanging the component in question or providing a revision to the application.  Now that many Harley- Davidsons are calibrated by electronics this type of transaction can often be handled easily via email.  If that is not an option, they should be able to quickly connect you with a dealer in your area who can handle the issue at hand.  Seems like this should be easy to address with minor adjustments to your map through the software that comes with the ECM.  Another option would be to send your ECM back to them to have a map revision if your not set up to receive and load it electronically yourself.    

To date, have you not yet  received a reply from Zipper's in regard to your dyno results or your concerns?  I'm sure that your satisfaction is a priority to those folks.  They have been around a long time - that doesn't happen by blowing people off.    

As far as praise goes, I can only speak from my own experience.  After working in a dealership for many years, I praise H-D for making fine motorcycles, even though many customers feel that the Motor Co. and the dealer network sometimes fall short of some expectations.  That's where the aftermarket steps in - and when something works and works well - it's good to pass it on.

Sorry to hear your having trouble. Hope they get you tightened up soon.  Keep us posted.


The Chop  

 

           

[Dr. Evil]

I'm no moderator [smiley=cry2.gif].
(but on a side topic, I did apply for the moderator job and when I listed Hubbard, DJW, BLM777,Spyder and Otis as references they threw out my application.

[DCFIREMANN]

Pappy

Keep on posting!
We all want your motor RIGHT!

I'm no moderator [smiley=cry2.gif].
(but on a side topic, I did apply for the moderator job and when I listed Hubbard, DJW, BLM777,Spyder and Otis as references they threw out my application. Although I did list my redemming qualities as being maladjusted, antisocial and darn mean. On that part they said I would fit right in!)

You have paid your money and deserve some satisfaction. Stay on them. Maybe someone can tell you who to talk to about this problem instead of just singing mindless praises of how great they are.

Again, stay on their a$$.
Where is Fireman when we need him?

 [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

HERE I IS CHIP!!!!!! I did make a call just to see if and what the problem is or was. I did not get to talk to the person I needed to but did leave a voice mail(they are at lunch) I know I will get a return call.

One person I did talk to who had no knowledge of Pappy's problem but he had a few insights for me. Problem 1 is (and  I don't know if this is or was a problem) if the bikes head temp is not at 235 degrees the ecm will still try to warm the engine to operating temps (rich condition) Problem 2 would be the air temp(ambient) and humidity and this should be handeled by a simple tuning using the Zippers program sent with the ECM.

These scenarios seem very reasonable to me and should be simple to work with!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[Twolanerider]