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[110tHunDer]

 
Guys, just a friendly reminder in here to not take things down to a level where the thread will end up getting locked.  It appears that one of the vendors involved has signed up on the board, but they won't have the chance to reply here if the thread takes a tangent to personal attacks and gets locked.  Thanks for respecting the Rules of Posting.

[SBB]

Guys, just a friendly reminder in here to not take things down to a level where the thread will end up getting locked.  It appears that one of the vendors involved has signed up on the board, but they won't have the chance to reply here if the thread takes a tangent to personal attacks and gets locked.  Thanks for respecting the Rules of Posting.

 

I would love to hear their replies!

 

[EZRIDN]

Damn, the whole site's tuned in! This is a perfect time to FART!!!

Hoist!

...lay off them burritos & onions, Howie!    My eyes are burning.  

[Twolanerider]

I'm never above busting Howie's nuts a little.  It's what we do to our friends after all.  But we're also not cutting him quite enough slack.  In his mind he was buying all from one vendor.  And that one vendor promised cross-pollination not cross contamination.

That the vendor jobbed it out and did so without a means or even a real attempt to follow up is a mistake that is not the customer's.  We can only rely on what we're told of these people before the fact and the impression we get from them during the conversation.

I was told good things, from many (many many many) about Zippers overall effort.  That they'd be good from checkbook to timesheet and all the assistance needed in between.  Did what seemed an appropriate amount of homework.  Unfortunately my efforts didn't pan out either. 

Others followed with poor efforts from them also.  But at the time only Harry has admitted to knowing of issues with them.  Issues he describes as nearly identical to my own actually.  But he wasn't voicing the problem publicly because he was still hoping to personally get some recovery from them. 

So I didn't know.  And dealt with the issues I did.  Not for lack of effort before the fact.  Not for lack of trying to do it right.  Just because it worked out that way.

Howie too worked with a known vendor.  He had trouble.  That's not his fault.  We should be able to rely on professionals for professional efforts.  We just have to be a bit more careful and cover our own butts no matter what.  chit happens.  Too easily.

Howie didn't make it any better by initially trying to complete a build more complicated then was within the capability of the Harley shop doing the work.  He recognizes that and admits it readily.  Sometimes we screw up when we try to save a buck; especially when the shop tells us they actually can do something.

It ain't good all the way around.  Being reminded that we're all always best making sure our own butts are covered no matter what promises we're made is a service Howie has paid handsomely to remind everyone of.  The only important thing now is that his bike is finally on the home stretch.  It and spring will break out together.  Thank god.

[SBB]

Don

As I said above I agree with you!
But rather than having a thread that bashes a vendor from one viewpoint I think it's important that we all realized there are two sides to every story. I know Pam at CycleRama and I think should they desire, their point of view should be heard. It's the way this site works. Hoist may bash me because he doesn't like my response above but I believe CycleRama is a good vendor and will continue to be. I also believe that as a site member that they should be treated as such and not be treated like a whipping post. As Brian said above there are rules of posting and I think bashing of members is not permitted. In my world there are two sides to every story and I have heard one side and look forward to hearing the other!

SBB

[Twolanerider]

Don

As I said above I agree with you!
But rather than having a thread that bashes a vendor from one viewpoint I think it's important that we all realized there are two sides to every story. I know Pam at CycleRama and I think should they desire, their point of view should be heard. It's the way this site works. Hoist may bash me because he doesn't like my response above but I believe CycleRama is a good vendor and will continue to be. I also believe that as a site member that they should be treated as such and not be treated like a whipping post. As Brian said above there are rules of posting and I think bashing of members is not permitted. In my world there are two sides to every story and I have heard one side and look forward to hearing the other!

SBB

Chip, I completely agree with you.  No reservations or hesitations.  Howie had issues.  Some of his own making some from elsewhere.  Sometimes a vendor in any field might get so tired of some particular job they just stick their head in the sand and hope it goes away too.

None of us were "there."  We're all spectators.  You and Howie occasionally wind each other up a bit.  It's not usually too harsh and its often at least partly in fun.  But when that starts it's easy to understand a vendor having second thoughts about jumping in the middle of what may be a sibling spat.  But the field is out there and defined.  The vendor can enter it and offer explanation or concede it and offer none.

Honestly, as you've said yourself more than once, I'm just glad Cybil is about done.  That her both literal and figurative spring resurrections are so soon before us.  Amen and pass the mashed potatoes because no matter where any fault may have been it's just unfortunate it all happened.

[AMP]

Silver-Black, I am not sure who you are but thank you for the voice of reason you have shown here. I made a lond drawn out post but it got deleted somehow.

I was agreeing to your prior post. Everyone should use due diligence in getting moror work done.

Howie's cylinders and pistons were sent to me because I requested that they be sent. I wanted to check the liner for movement(none was found). The reason that his were re-checked as well as Scott Dunbars(Sandunbar) was becaused I got a call from Howie, shortly after his Dealership rebuild, saying that his motor "was blown". Those were the words that he used. We then came to find that he just had a blown head gasket. I wanted to check the cylinders myself to make sure they weren't part of the problem. They weren't. There were ghost marks in the cylinders which is normal. It comes from the rings contacting the cylinder wall. There were NO scratches and they most certainly were not "galled". The pistons weren't "galled". Nothing needed to be done to make them right and viable for any application. I would have run them on one of my own bikes with out a second thought.

The long wait that Howie repeats again and again and again and again was directly due to Howie deciding to now go with gear drive cams. I was out of cores(he new it) and it took a long time for cores to become available. Cycle-Rama had absolutely zero control over that situation.

The complaints that we are at fault for are as follows: The broken fin, which we were told happened in shipment to Howie. We overlooked it the first time for which I apologized profusely and subsequentally repaired. The piston to rod fitment. We were sent the pistons by CP and we didn't clearance them. Our bad, but we took care of it and then balanced Howie's pistons free of charge to try to make up for our snafu. I also had the cylinders re-honed for Howie's satifaction, not ours. To answer a question that has been skirted around here...Cylinders for coated pistons are bored to a finished bore size, not to a specific clearance. I know that I am not explaining that very clearly, but it is late and I am tired and as I mentioned before this is my second go round.

Alot of what was posted before was an exaggeration if not an out and out lie. Whoever said that Howie should write a book is right because he sure does take certain poetic license and adds drama where none exists.

If anyone I have seen on this thread has a right to bitch, it would be Sandunbar...we took him around the block. He is a gentleman and is certainly knowledgeable in this genre'. He built his own motor and I assume it worked out okay. He is level headed and unlike Howie, he knows of what he speaks. He got basically the same parts and built a great engine. Maybe we are in cahoots with every other company that is trying to oppress Howie's Harley driving passion.

The last verbal conversation I had with Howie, I told him that he talked too much and he called WAY too much and maybe he should think about letting the folks who were doing the work DO the work, not just talk about it 50 times a day...He was angry and understandably so, but he is taking his anger and pettiness to an absurd level.

Cycle-Rama has been in the performance engine building business for over 31 years and have built more motors than I can count. We have built record setting Drag Bikes, Bonneville record setters(over 200mph) and of course for Maxton. What we are known for the most are the horsepower shootouts. Our last being the Teresi Dyno Drags in Pamona California. Our customers 131 B motored Fat boy won the world finals with a qualifying horsepower 0f 185. It is definitely our passion. It is also our livelyhood. It is how we pay our mortgages. I have employees who I am responsible for. We all have people who depend on us. I couldn't let this stand. There are indeed two sides to every story.

Anyone who would like to contact me directly is welcome to call Cycle-Rama directly and I would be glad to talk with you.

I apologize for the lengthy post(X's 2) and I appreciate all the kindness that some of you have shown and the consideration of others who only heard one side of this story. Take good care.

[vagabond6542]

Seems to me I was posting some stuff on motor builds on another thread and several people jumped all over that thread preaching CycleRama. Sounds like the name should be CustomerRama from what you're saying Howie cause it sure looks like they honed your bunghole better than they did your cylinders.
B B

OUCH, that had got to hurt. Imagine a 4" dia. stroke.
A little too much for me

[Hoist!]

We're getting very close to the whole story. What's not mentioned is the fact that the first set of pistons were determined to be fit incorrectly too. They were scuffed, not galled, whatever,but they weren't fitted correctly, not ring marks. You'd use them in your engine, but Wes recommended they be replaced. And with a smaller one to boot. Now they're finally fitted. And that after that, 3 months wait, and the second job coming back wrong, Howie was upset. Well, what do you expect? Building engines for 31 years, this should have been a piece of cake. I was patient and loyal thru the whole process, and processes. Yeah, I had a dealer builder screw it up the first time. My bad too! I've said that. But your parts were counted on to be perfect, and they weren't. That's all. I've recommended you to many people publicly. So I need to tell people that work needs to be checked carefully. Nothing to defend if the work's done correctly. But I talked too much. So what else is new. I wouldn't have had anything but positive talk if I were a happy camper.

Hoist!

[Twolanerider]

Howie, you and I have gotten to know one another well enough by now that you know I'd tell you you were full of chit if I thought you were. Then we'd get a beer and go riding and start bitching about something else.  So any analysis is just my straight read on what's been shared by both you and CycleRama.

You did screw up.  You tried to cut a corner and save a labor bill to get a dealer to build your motor rather than their own.  And you relied on everyone except yourself.  You know these things though.  You've admitted them and you understand them (not always shared commodities). 

And as the process got more and more difficult you bitched. 

Believe me buddy, anyone that knows you would have expected nothing less.  You raise the skill to an art form when you feel it's warranted.  The question then becomes what did the vendors do to warrant it?

Honestly I appreciate the shop's willingness to step in here and write relatively dispassionately.  It shows some conviction on their part.  And since they've put up with you as long as you've put up with them I'm sure they feel a bit harried and haggard by now also.

Strictly from the outside looking in though I'd guess that sometime later on, after they too have had a chance to step back a bit, they'll wish they might not have written all they did.  From a prospective customer's point of view it's not especially reassuring. 

They admitted mistakes in your work.  Some not big, some of simple carelessness; but mistakes nonetheless.  Repetitive mistakes in fact.  They also described their experience with one other customer (Scott).  Beyond any problems you might have had they seem to think they dealt him a worse hand then they dealt you. 

In their mind they tried to correct problems with each of you.  In the end they likely have.  That is of course important.  But that means there were still significant issues to get to that end.  And that's unfortunate.  It costs time and it costs money.  For both sides.

Worst to me, however, is that they describe having gotten fed up with you.  Again, many of your friends here could easily understand having heard the harmonious timbre of your melody perhaps a chord too long.  But we aren't taking your money.

Any businessman has the right to just get fed up.  Even get fed up and walk away.  But they can't keep spending your money and keep spending your time and also put their head in the sand.  It's got to be a one or the other proposition.

If you (or me or whomever) are just too much of a pain in the ass to deal with they have to say "sorry man, here's your money back, send me my parts, some jobs just aren't worth selling." 

Short of that they keep plugging.  They don't hide, evade, hope not to hear from you or let anything take longer just because you're a pain.  You make it right as quickly and efficiently and effectively as you can, eat what you must and be done with it.

Do the work and take the money or don't do the work and don't take the money.  It really is the business owner's choice.  But in any shop or business I've ever run if I'm not giving your money back then I have to put up with you and at least accept it.  Anything else is not a good job.

[AMP]

Cycle-Rama sold Howie some machine work and parts. Some of the parts didn't come as fast as Howie would like so we had to have parts drop shipped. That was the reason that all the parts didn't come here first. The cylinders were bored to a pre-determined bore size which is customary for coated pistons. You can call any real motor builder and they will tell you the same thing.

The reason that the pistons were replaced is because the dealer mechanic cut the wrong piston. Howie knows that. Keep in mind, the only reason that Vern sent the cylinders back to us in the first place was because I asked for them. No one insisted as Howie claims in one of his prior posts.

Howie's friend at the Harley dealer who was trying to give him a hand got fired due to Howie's motor work. This is according to Howie, of course.

"They don't hide, evade, hope not to hear from you or let anything take longer just because you're a pain.  You make it right as quickly and efficiently and effectively as you can, eat what you must and be done with it."

Which one of these did we miss? Nobody put their head in the sand. The reason it took so long in Howie's case is that he wanted to switch to gear drive cams. He was told by Cycle-Rama that there was no need for that since he had a later year model bike with better tensioners(if you didn't notice, that was a company trying to save a customer time and money). 

"They admitted mistakes in your work.  Some not big, some of simple carelessness; but mistakes nonetheless.  Repetitive mistakes in fact."   

I'm not getting the repetitive part. I have laid claim to 2 mistakes. I explained them in detail.

We are human over here and as such we make human mistakes. I admit it, I embrace it, I own it. The reason I mentioned Scott's experience is because I don't hide from it. Why would I ? That would make me a liar and THAT I am not.

The things that Howie claims are fictional and/or exaggerated. The mistakes we made were missing the broken fin.We repaired another that we did see, that he didn't mention, maybe that damage happened when the cylinders were shipped to us. On it's return, we did repair the original also. The second mistake was the piston to rod fitment. That we missed. Plain and simple. We apologized and clearanced that as well. That is all. If we had recieved the parts as delivered to be installed, we would have made the adjustments here and moved along. We check everything that goes together and make adjustments as necessary. Stuff like that happens in this business all the time. There is no whining, no crying...it's a machine and you fix it, make it go as fast as humanly possible and go on to the next one.

The reason that Howie got an e-mail from Wes about the cylinders is because, we got several e-mails leading us to this page. Wes was at that point concerned about Howie's build in the hands of one who claims to be competent...and told Howie that if he does as Vern suggests, all he will have is a mosquito fogger.

This isn't a pissing contest here. Claims have been made against our abilities and our integrety. These things simply are not true.
If this is sticking my head in the sand or hiding and evading, believe me, you don't want to see me when I am paying attention.

[SBB]

Silver-Black, I am not sure who you are but thank you for the voice of reason you have shown here. I made a lond drawn out post but it got deleted somehow.

I was agreeing to your prior post. Everyone should use due diligence in getting moror work done.

Howie's cylinders and pistons were sent to me because I requested that they be sent. I wanted to check the liner for movement(none was found). The reason that his were re-checked as well as Scott Dunbars(Sandunbar) was becaused I got a call from Howie, shortly after his Dealership rebuild, saying that his motor "was blown". Those were the words that he used. We then came to find that he just had a blown head gasket. I wanted to check the cylinders myself to make sure they weren't part of the problem. They weren't. There were ghost marks in the cylinders which is normal. It comes from the rings contacting the cylinder wall. There were NO scratches and they most certainly were not "galled". The pistons weren't "galled". Nothing needed to be done to make them right and viable for any application. I would have run them on one of my own bikes with out a second thought.

The long wait that Howie repeats again and again and again and again was directly due to Howie deciding to now go with gear drive cams. I was out of cores(he new it) and it took a long time for cores to become available. Cycle-Rama had absolutely zero control over that situation.

The complaints that we are at fault for are as follows: The broken fin, which we were told happened in shipment to Howie. We overlooked it the first time for which I apologized profusely and subsequentally repaired. The piston to rod fitment. We were sent the pistons by CP and we didn't clearance them. Our bad, but we took care of it and then balanced Howie's pistons free of charge to try to make up for our snafu. I also had the cylinders re-honed for Howie's satifaction, not ours. To answer a question that has been skirted around here...Cylinders for coated pistons are bored to a finished bore size, not to a specific clearance. I know that I am not explaining that very clearly, but it is late and I am tired and as I mentioned before this is my second go round.

Alot of what was posted before was an exaggeration if not an out and out lie. Whoever said that Howie should write a book is right because he sure does take certain poetic license and adds drama where none exists.

If anyone I have seen on this thread has a right to bitch, it would be Sandunbar...we took him around the block. He is a gentleman and is certainly knowledgeable in this genre'. He built his own motor and I assume it worked out okay. He is level headed and unlike Howie, he knows of what he speaks. He got basically the same parts and built a great engine. Maybe we are in cahoots with every other company that is trying to oppress Howie's Harley driving passion.

The last verbal conversation I had with Howie, I told him that he talked too much and he called WAY too much and maybe he should think about letting the folks who were doing the work DO the work, not just talk about it 50 times a day...He was angry and understandably so, but he is taking his anger and pettiness to an absurd level.

Cycle-Rama has been in the performance engine building business for over 31 years and have built more motors than I can count. We have built record setting Drag Bikes, Bonneville record setters(over 200mph) and of course for Maxton. What we are known for the most are the horsepower shootouts. Our last being the Teresi Dyno Drags in Pamona California. Our customers 131 B motored Fat boy won the world finals with a qualifying horsepower 0f 185. It is definitely our passion. It is also our livelyhood. It is how we pay our mortgages. I have employees who I am responsible for. We all have people who depend on us. I couldn't let this stand. There are indeed two sides to every story.

Anyone who would like to contact me directly is welcome to call Cycle-Rama directly and I would be glad to talk with you.

I apologize for the lengthy post(X's 2) and I appreciate all the kindness that some of you have shown and the consideration of others who only heard one side of this story. Take good care.

Wes and Pam!

Thank you for your response!
I appreciate your honestly and candor!
Next time I see you I will reintroduce myself and you will say "Oh Yeah now I remember".
You are absolutely correct in your description of Scott and he definitely knows his stuff!
I for one will continue to recommend your products and your service on this great site!
As we have all said there is two sides to a story and your response truly shows that to be correct.
Thank you for your time and please don't be strangers to this great site.

SBB

 

[SBB]

I think this thread has now come full circle!
It started off as a "bashing CycleRama" thread and now we all can read both sides of the issue.
People make mistakes, I know sure as chit out of the almost 3000 homes I have built there has never been one built perfect. We all have to take some and give some. That's the way life is.

So lets move on and have some fun riding and playing!
See everyone in Daytona, CHL, M/B and M/V!
It's my belief that a man (and certain women) can never have too much horsepower!
Twist that throttle and lets ride!

SBB

[skreminegul07]

Looking at the subject of this thread, I noticed that it is ironic to "beware of aftermarket" performance mods because the main reason for this rebuild is that the multi billion dollar corporation with hundreds of engineers and their official dealers and factory certified mechanics put out and can't support a bad product.

We have to be able to trust someone.  IMHO, Howie's frustration is that he puts so much trust up front and then something goes wrong and then he feels betrayed.  Like I said, he was betrayed by the moco and the dealer and others first.  Like when you cheat on your spouse, its hard to build that trust back up, or so I've heard.  I'm glad to see info from both sides here.

I am very like Howie in some respects, only after being betryed by the moco, I have decided that the SERK and I will be getting a divorce when I find a new mistress to ride. (!).  A year ago we discussed this.  I do not have Howie's passion, dollars,  or other bikes to ride.  I'll move on before I spend any money to fix this thing.  Just my 2 cents and I hope to hell Cybil is 110% of what Howie wants, and I'm glad that New Yorkers are not too big on carrying guns.  Goin postal!
 

[iski]

It is good to read the other side of this issue.

Some vendors would have just lurked & not replied.  Cycle-Rama stepped up & posted their side, which makes this more interesting & indicates they care about their reputation. Kudos to them for that.

Reminds me of a divorce where each divorced person has a story & neither story is exactly the same story but it's close enough to the same story so that ya never really know which story is the right story. So ya pick one story & just go with it & then you find out you picked the wrong one & end up saying whathtehell?   If that made any sense, I apologize, it was obviously not my intent. 

Fact remains - in Howie's case - if the MoCo had delivered a bulletproof engine in his SERK to begin with or fixed it correctly when they had it in for service at an HD dealer, he would not have had these problems.  And they do not post here - at least directly.