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[dps4]

Does it bother anyone else that in three different motorcycle magazines I read recently, the Star(Yamaha)Raider beat Harley's Rocker in being the overall better bike. I am afraid the motorcycle industry(along with camping, boating and most other leisure activity products )are going to get hit real hard in this recession. I hope it gets over within a couple of years.

[SPIDERMAN]

Actually, H-D inc is in serious need of a reality check. Seems they've forgotten what life was like in the AMF days when quality was out the window and customer loyalty was the only thing keeping them going. I welcome a downturn to their fortunes. Hell I'm cheering for one. I've bought 7 new motorcycles in the past 10 years and just got litterally run off from the dealer that sold them to me by their complete chitty attitude toward me and every other customer. Some of the a$$holes need to see their balance sheets go south in a big way so they finally listen to US, the damn customers. I love my Harley. Have loved nearly everyone I've ever owned, but I am fed up with being milked like some fat cash cow.   

B B

[Midnight Rider]

Does it bother anyone else that in three different motorcycle magazines I read recently, the Star(Yamaha)Raider beat Harley's Rocker in being the overall better bike. I am afraid the motorcycle industry(along with camping, boating and most other leisure activity products )are going to get hit real hard in this recession. I hope it gets over within a couple of years.

You will probably find that almost any brand of motorcycle that is in the same genre will be found to be superior compared to a Harley, if the magazine is objective in their evaluation of overall performance.  A person who buys a HD is not buying superior technology...on any component.

[SPIDERMAN]

You will probably find that almost any brand of motorcycle that is in the same genre will be found to be superior compared to a Harley, if the magazine is objective in their evaluation of overall performance.  A person who buys a HD is not buying superior technology...on any component.

but ooooooooo la la, there's nothing like that Harley cache   

B B

[erniezap]

Actually, H-D inc is in serious need of a reality check. Seems they've forgotten what life was like in the AMF days when quality was out the window and customer loyalty was the only thing keeping them going. I welcome a downturn to their fortunes. Hell I'm cheering for one. I've bought 7 new motorcycles in the past 10 years and just got litterally run off from the dealer that sold them to me by their complete chitty attitude toward me and every other customer. Some of the a$$holes need to see their balance sheets go south in a big way so they finally listen to US, the damn customers. I love my Harley. Have loved nearly everyone I've ever owned, but I am fed up with being milked like some fat cash cow.   

B B

Brian,

Couldn't agree with you more.  A reality check is definitely needed.  In fact, San Ramon HD closed its doors recently...

[Midnight Rider]

but ooooooooo la la, there's nothing like that Harley cache   

B B

   We love 'em, B B, but they'd better wake up and smell the coffee, both the company and the dealers.  I have NEVER seen so many bikes on my local dealership's floor...literally more than a hundred bikes sitting there, yet they still have them all over MSRP.  Even some of the clothing that has long since been on sale at other dealers...mine still has them at regular prices...I don't see how they're keeping the doors open.  Of course, people here have two choices...both owned by the same greedy SOB.  You've got to travel at least 100 miles to get a decent deal on a new scooter.

I was in the store the other day talking to a real nice fellow who was looking at a new RG...same bike in Mobile, AL (250 miles south, where I bought mine) was nearly 3 grand cheaper...I'll drive 250 miles all day to save 3 grand...and get better customer service in the process.

[SPIDERMAN]

Maybe Rjobs can help a bit on this thread cause I sure as hell don't know the first thing about how any vehicle dealership operates. I'm looking at it purely from the standpoint of a customer. FMC sales have been way down and yet many of the local dealers still won't deal. I ended up buying my 08 pickup from a dealership two towns over because the one 2 miles from my house wouldn't work with me. Now since the one I bought from did the deal I wanted, the closer dealership certainly becomes suspect in everything they told me why they couldn't work the deal I wanted. The thing is though when you're talking the automobile industry however it would seem you can always find a dealership you can work with. With Harley-Davidson it's like they all sign a contract that if they give you a freakin nickle off on anything Lucca Brassi comes back from the dead to chop their legs off with a dull axe. I just don't get it. As TC says, every dealer you walk into has a bazillion bikes on the floor. Some showrooms are so full they've moved out racks for motorclothes and accessories AND YET, they all still have MSRP on the tags. My buddy and his wife from Maine stopped by BIGGS in San Marcos with me and they (BIGGS) had a couple left over 07 Ultra-classics. They were asking the same price for the 07's as the 08's. Now somebody explain that one. Ok, I'm getting myself wound up here which isn't good for my stress level and the atrial fibrillation issues I have, but this is what I've always done to relax and unwind and the bastards are really effin it up. Seems they've all become a parody of that Fat Bastard down in Florida.

B B

[Midnight Rider]

I don't know how it all works either, B B, but I do know I've always been able to buy my cars for just slightly over invoice...I know they get hold backs, etc, so they still make money.  My last car was $88 over invoice.

I don't know how the bike dealerships work, but I KNOW I can go into any other bike dealership, other than a HD, and get a bike for UNDER MSRP.  If they can do it and stay in business, why the hell can't the HD dealers?  I'm not a business man, but I'd rather sell 5 bikes a month for 1 or 2K under than 1 at MSRP.  I guess some of these guys have made so much money over the past 15 years or so, they aren't worried about it, but dipping into reserves to meet payroll is not my idea of good business management.

There's no reason in this world why a HD should cost what it does, other than they have known for years that people will pay it.  Those days are ending, IMO.

[miker]

 parody of that Fat Bastard down in Florida.

I didn't have anything to do with it! 

Oh you mean "That Fat Bastard".  When the crush was on they had export bikes on the floor.
I won't buy a tee shirt at his stores but I will use the bathroom and maybe drip alittle at the stealers.

[Smiler]

All valid points - unfortunately when you buy a Harley you buy into the dream and the MoCo know that.
I was told they won't discount prices for new bikes because that helps keep their value high, particularly when you trade it in.
We know the bikes are basic but don't they look just great and the feeling you get when you start up is "Bloody Priceless" which is why we keep coming back - I can't understand why anyone would want to buy anything else - by the way what's a Raider?

After saying that I think the MoCo could do a lot better with the product but there is a fear that if they do try something different and go the same way as the Japs - their market will dry up - Example the V-Rod loving looking as it is but it hasn't done too well because the traditionalists amongst us want air cooled.   In fact to be honest how many of us would still want an old knucklehead or Evo and while we have that mentality "nowt" will change.

[iski]

In the southern US, most dealers got most of their bikes to sell in 08 in the fall of 07.  The MoCo has been yakking about shipping these staggered on a more as needed basis, but did not this last year.  Southern dealers will get a few more bikes to sell, and it may vary dealer to dealer, but they know roughly how many they sell in an average month, and if they do not have a huge number of bikes arriving before the 09's come out, they have little reason to be motivated to sell.

Northern dealers get more new shipments generally in late winter/spring since they have no way to test ride or sell them in the dead of winter. So to balance the factory outputs southern dealers get their's early.  Out west where the weather is great figure they get them more year round but not sure.  Dealers have some latitude on how they mark up & sell bikes & figure there is a hold back/rebate they can bank on like the car guys have.  Some sell at list, some below, others above.  Depends on the model & the motivation to sell, maybe.  I know of a guy who went to Daytona & spent $3 grand more for the SAME bike since they had it in stock & ready to sell vs waiting a few weeks. Incredible.

H/D will continue on adding a frilly deal here or a clever name there & a neatly bent fender maybe on some older frame with a spiffy new paint job as long as folks line up to buy them.  When that slows or stops, they will either get religion and get creative or they will just fade away.  H/D has a great rep as a cruiser & that is the market they are mining.  Other cruisers may rate better, but they aren't Harleys & the MoCo knows that and uses it to it's full advantage.  Good business - to a point.

Economy really is not all that bad except in certain sectors despite the extreme bullchit we get to hear from various yakky heads.  Housing market is bad but personal income is up for quite a few years in a row.  People are not buying this year - in general - like they have in the past since they are nervous or scared.  Lots of economic bogeymen to skeer the beejeebers out of them.  This affects sales of big ticket items - like Harleys.  Just one reason the MoCo cut production numbers on bikes this year.  That was a smart move. Not building extremely reliable products, long term, is a fatal flaw.  H/D runs to the brink of that with some of these problems, but compared to what I read about other bike brands - they have lots of problems too.

[SPIDERMAN]

Iski - - - you get any further to the right, you're gonna fall off the edge

B B

[iski]

BB - no idea why you would think that, but it funny in it's quirky way.


As to capitalism & all - until I see a better system will not be convinced that some socialistic crappola is preferable.


If the MoCo does lousy - in a capitalistic system - it goes down.  In a socialistic society, it would not really matter.

[RJ749]

Well B B, I stumbled in here and there's just too much to deal with for me.

Honda dealers, Lexus dealers, and a few others hold price pretty well and similarly to the HD guys.

All it takes is for one or a few to start dropping price and there goes the neighborhood.

We will see many car agencies fold over the next couple of years.  Some because of location, some because the manufacturer they have is weakening or the public is no longer buying their stuff.

The long and short of it though is that the market does dictate the price and as long as they move the product they;ll not change their way of doing business.  All too often in the past a MoCo dealer has worked their way out of the inventory bulge and hasn't had to drop price much.

This time around may be different, but I got tired of waiting for the big drop in prices we all thought/think is coming on Harley's.  Only time will tell and as long as the sell bikes they'll keep the same business strategy.

As for buying cars or trucks at $88.00 over invoice etc, if I can replace what I'm selling I will pretty much take any deal that makes sense.

But if we are talking an allocated product like Porsche, some Audi's some VW's etc. the market sets the price and it isn't going to be much off MSRP in those cases.

Car dealers are much quicker to react to inventory pressure than bike dealers though in my experience.  If our stuff starts to back up, you can cut a heck of a deal.

I tend to be a lay down when it comes to wanting something and paying for it.  Most of the time I get all exercised on getting a deal and then when it comes time to negotiate, I'm so damned excited to get it I don't push too hard for a deal.  Just me I guess, but I don't stress myself too much over it either.

The average US car dealer import and domestic this year made less than 2% net BEFORE taxes.  It's like groceries, big volume low profit.  You just have to be fortunate enough to be where there is enough volume to survive.

[SBB]

With Harley-Davidson it's like they all sign a contract that if they give you a freakin nickle off on anything Lucca Brassi comes back from the dead to chop their legs off with a dull axe.
B B

BB

FYI
As much as the economy has sucked for the last few months and with all the cutbacks I was able to keep my version of the "Redneck Lucca Brassi" on the payroll. He sure does come in handy. And he's great with the Mexicans!