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[SirMichael]

Buying a 110 Inch      85%
Starting the engine    15%

   

                                                                               

[stekat]

Here's the link, they have several articles on this issue. The only thing about this is it changes the AFR across the board, so you might be a little rich in some areas, but better than lean!

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/hd2007HD_wbo2_upgrade.htm

Not true, the IED's only affect the range that the O2 sensors operate in, which is only  when the AFR is set for 14.6; they are narrow band sensors.  The rest of the map will not be affected.

[kojak]

A bigger cam ,holds the valves open longer , reduces comp. ratio. The 2007 CVO { 110"} manual says , 200-220 cranking compression with comp. release closed , and they are running 214-218. That is  NOT GOOD , my freinds. That is race bike comp. !  The S.E. 255 cams are ground by Andrews { John is a freind of mine} and they are NOT grinding them to the #s listed in the S.E. catalog. I put the Andrews 32H in my 2007 springer ,and it 'cooled' it down a BUNCH and has the same tq. { 110} but more hp.  90 vs 100 { no tune} Zippers air filter and 'home made' baffles {{cycle shack design} and now I put the TFI on it ,and it runs GREAT. Put the RUSH slip-ons on it and lost 8-11 tq. 2300- 3600 rpm. so I put my home made baffle back in and will dyno again soon. I have a contract with the 'local' H-D shop to use there 250 I dyno , FREE.  I have been told ' I can tune a carb over the phone' BUT , this F.I. is new to me  but after playing with this TFI , I am starting to like it. DEWEY   

Dewey, I understand what you are saying. I grew up riding race bikes (high revs, high compression). Not to offend anyone, but a higher duration cam shouldnt increase or decrease engine temps by itself, it has to work with the map, ignition timing, compression and the exhaust characterisitcs. In the high performance engines, youre always looking at getting more power(horsepower) at higher rpms and valve overlap can be overcome by high compression and free flowing exhausts. Valve overlap was just something you dealt with as a result of a setup designed to cram as much air as possible through the combustion cycle. In the hd V-Twin, I can see an engine losing low rpm power(torque) with a bigger cam if you dont deal with reversion resulting from the valve overlap imo.

[rednectum]

Not true, the IED's only affect the range that the O2 sensors operate in, which is only  when the AFR is set for 14.6; they are narrow band sensors.  The rest of the map will not be affected.

you said a mouthfull there.

"the rest of the map will not be affected".............and we all know that means LEAN with some crazy timing curves.
this is what keeps tuners in business.

[grc]

I think it cannot be mentioned often enough that the stock Harley system is not a full time closed loop system.  H-D took the cheapest route and only instituted the minimum amount of hardware and software required to meet the letter of the law.  The system only runs in closed loop when the engine is running in the normal operating temperature range, and when the throttle opening is approximately 50% or less, or when engine speed is below approximately 4000 rpm.  In other words, outside of those parameters the ECM reverts to the values in the base map with no O² sensor feedback at all. 

I have no information on what the stock maps are like on the '07 and later bikes, but a review of many before and after dyno AFR charts of the previous models shows a tendency for H-D to run their stock maps a little rich outside of the EPA mode, as in high rpm and wide open throttle.  Since rich is better than lean with regards to damaging engines, it makes sense that the manufacturer would tend toward the rich side in the non-regulated ranges.  That is why I believe someone who just wants to keep their bike stock or maybe change mufflers only could in fact go with the IED setup rather than a full blown tuning device and dyno tune.  The IED would richen the mixture from 14.7 to 14.2 in closed loop mode, and the occassional foray into open loop operation should still be safe due to the safety margin in the stock maps.  It all comes down to bang for the buck.  Not everyone wants or needs a full blown dyno tune and tuning device at roughly $1k; for them the $80 IED may be just fine, as long as they understand the limitations.

Jerry

[stekat]

I think it cannot be mentioned often enough that the stock Harley system is not a full time closed loop system.  H-D took the cheapest route and only instituted the minimum amount of hardware and software required to meet the letter of the law.  The system only runs in closed loop when the engine is running in the normal operating temperature range, and when the throttle opening is approximately 50% or less, or when engine speed is below approximately 4000 rpm.  In other words, outside of those parameters the ECM reverts to the values in the base map with no O² sensor feedback at all. 

I have no information on what the stock maps are like on the '07 and later bikes, but a review of many before and after dyno AFR charts of the previous models shows a tendency for H-D to run their stock maps a little rich outside of the EPA mode, as in high rpm and wide open throttle.  Since rich is better than lean with regards to damaging engines, it makes sense that the manufacturer would tend toward the rich side in the non-regulated ranges.  That is why I believe someone who just wants to keep their bike stock or maybe change mufflers only could in fact go with the IED setup rather than a full blown tuning device and dyno tune.  The IED would richen the mixture from 14.7 to 14.2 in closed loop mode, and the occassional foray into open loop operation should still be safe due to the safety margin in the stock maps.  It all comes down to bang for the buck.  Not everyone wants or needs a full blown dyno tune and tuning device at roughly $1k; for them the $80 IED may be just fine, as long as they understand the limitations.

Jerry

Jerry,
Very complete explanation and very well written!  Kudos.....

[rednectum]

I think it cannot be mentioned often enough that the stock Harley system is not a full time closed loop system.  H-D took the cheapest route and only instituted the minimum amount of hardware and software required to meet the letter of the law.  The system only runs in closed loop when the engine is running in the normal operating temperature range, and when the throttle opening is approximately 50% or less, or when engine speed is below approximately 4000 rpm.  In other words, outside of those parameters the ECM reverts to the values in the base map with no O² sensor feedback at all. 

I have no information on what the stock maps are like on the '07 and later bikes, but a review of many before and after dyno AFR charts of the previous models shows a tendency for H-D to run their stock maps a little rich outside of the EPA mode, as in high rpm and wide open throttle.  Since rich is better than lean with regards to damaging engines, it makes sense that the manufacturer would tend toward the rich side in the non-regulated ranges.  That is why I believe someone who just wants to keep their bike stock or maybe change mufflers only could in fact go with the IED setup rather than a full blown tuning device and dyno tune.  The IED would richen the mixture from 14.7 to 14.2 in closed loop mode, and the occassional foray into open loop operation should still be safe due to the safety margin in the stock maps.  It all comes down to bang for the buck.  Not everyone wants or needs a full blown dyno tune and tuning device at roughly $1k; for them the $80 IED may be just fine, as long as they understand the limitations.

Jerry

there is much more to it that that. giving info like this and frying many motors is not what i would call helpful information. if you believe what you say, go for it. but remember, spewing false info is not the way to help your fellow man.

[Talon]

there is much more to it that that. giving info like this and frying many motors is not what i would call helpful information. if you believe what you say, go for it. but remember, spewing false info is not the way to help your fellow man.

? Then explain? How would this fry a motor, it's richens up the motor. I think GRC, (Jerry) is correct.

I should maybe stated in my post during O2 sensor operation, it changes it across the board during closed loop, some times this might be a little rich, but still better than the lean state of a stock ECM. I didn't intend to state that is would be this way all the time.

[grc]

there is much more to it that that. giving info like this and frying many motors is not what i would call helpful information. if you believe what you say, go for it. but remember, spewing false info is not the way to help your fellow man.

red,

Trust me, I've never knowingly spewed false information.  If there is a factual error in my post, and I definitely do not profess to be 100% correct in any and all things, please let me know what that error is.  All I thought I was saying is that 14.2:1 instead of the stock 14.7:1 is a good thing, and may be all that some people want or need on a stock bike.  I don't see how slightly richening the mixture in closed loop mode, and leaving the stock map alone in open loop mode, is going to fry any more motors than would have been fried without the addition of the IED.  

Not every person who buys a Harley runs out and has it tuned, there are plenty of folks who leave them stock for at least a year or two.  I still believe this IED gizmo is a viable option for those people, at least until they decide to start making other mods.  Is it as good as a full dyno tune by a competent tuner?  Absolutely not.  Is it better than what Harley provided?  I say it most definitely is.

Jerry

[rednectum]

i guess you would have to look at factory fuel/timing curves to understand. even with ieds, you still have these curves, but at closd loop, you get a slighter richer afr at times.

but------------------ telling folks it is ok to install pipes, A/C and ied and all will be well is not helping them. installaling ied on stock bike certainly wont hurt, but lots of folk are led to believe they can open the exhaust and air cleaner and be ok with $80 ied. had a friend/customer email me just the other day. he asked why he couldnt install cams, fatcat, k&n filter and drill holes in backiiing plate and ieds. he gave me a link to nightrider about the ied. over $20,000 bike, and was willing to destroy the motor because he read the article.........................and thought all would be okay.

[Talon]

i guess you would have to look at factory fuel/timing curves to understand. even with ieds, you still have these curves, but at closd loop, you get a slighter richer afr at times.

but------------------ telling folks it is ok to install pipes, A/C and ied and all will be well is not helping them. installaling ied on stock bike certainly wont hurt, but lots of folk are led to believe they can open the exhaust and air cleaner and be ok with $80 ied. had a friend/customer email me just the other day. he asked why he couldnt install cams, fatcat, k&n filter and drill holes in backiiing plate and ieds. he gave me a link to nightrider about the ied. over $20,000 bike, and was willing to destroy the motor because he read the article.........................and thought all would be okay.

The original post was about the cause of heat in the newer bikes, adding the IED to a stock bike would in most cases lower the heat buildup on the newer bikes. There is nothing in the Nightrider article that states That this setup would be good for a modified bike. Just states that the factory 14.7:1 is causing heat problems on the newer bikes. If someone reads something into it that, that wasn't there it's no one's fault but their own. Show me a misleading statement in that article. As for adding pipes, it won't change you AFR much, you'll have a bottle neck at the A/C. But if your going to do modifications to the bike the IED isn't the way to go.

[rednectum]

The original post was about the cause of heat in the newer bikes, adding the IED to a stock bike would in most cases lower the heat buildup on the newer bikes. There is nothing in the Nightrider article that states That this setup would be good for a modified bike. Just states that the factory 14.7:1 is causing heat problems on the newer bikes. If someone reads something into it that, that wasn't there it's no one's fault but their own. Show me a misleading statement in that article. As for adding pipes, it won't change you AFR much, you'll have a bottle neck at the A/C. But if your going to do modifications to the bike the IED isn't the way to go.

you are correct on that. re-read the article and yep, i read something into it that wasnt there. MY MISTAKE. as you can see i really have an issue with shortcuts that lead one to believe they can just add this or that and go about their merry way. i see lots offolk get ripped off for products that dont work as advertised, or worse, a product that makes their bike worse than stock.

being the self apointed asshole that tries and look out for fellow riders and customers, i get very passionate about these band-aid fixes---------as you can see!

my apologies for going off when i read something that was not there.

[kojak]

I agree with both points of view. Educate yourself before you dive into any motor modifications. Seen good info on this board for example and seen some where it was worthless and even harmful.

[Talon]

I agree with both points of view. Educate yourself before you dive into any motor modifications. Seen good info on this board for example and seen some where it was worthless and even harmful.

Hopfully someone that doesn't have much experence with mods will not take them on by their selves. If they go to a shop, I hope the shop would look at what they are trying to do and steer them in the right direction. How many times do you see someone that had a motor put together with little or no idea what they are doing, and end up with a mess. That's what I like about this site, lots of people with many different backgrounds and experence levels, all helping each other. It's always good to keep an eye out for what is said and how it was stated.

I made a goof on this post earlier. I said that the IED changed the AFR across the board. I meant to say that it changed it the same amount during close loop operation, unlike a SERT, or PCIII, which, even with the caned maps have individual setting changes in each cell. But if you were staying stock and didn't plan on making any changes to your bike, spending $300 or more for a PCIII or SERT is a lot of money just to change the AFR for a heat problem.

[rednectum]

talon, you just nailed the problem. newbys DO read this stuff and attempt to do their own work----------frying engines along the way. TRYING TO SAVE A DOLLAR, and articles like that entice them.