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Author Topic: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?  (Read 5140 times)

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IRyde

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2008, 03:39:28 PM »


I find it difficult to feel sorry for people who keep shooting themselves in the foot.  And I have no sympathy at all for those who expect someone else (the auto companies, the government, the tooth fairy) to magically produce solutions overnight.  If the consumers had demanded more fuel efficient alternatives instead of more bloat over the past several decades, manufacturers would have responded.  So far every attempt by manufacturer's or government to force the issue has failed because the consumer wouldn't buy the product.  Instead, the public demanded more size and more power.  In a free market, you tend to get what the consumer votes for with his $$$.  My advice to those who want an answer to our energy woes is similar to the advice I offer to those wanting decent quality and value from H-D:  vote with your pocketbook.  Don't buy another Harley until they take the customer seriously, and stop buying 10 mpg behemoths to ride up and down the freeway.
 
Jerry

I hear you but this situation cannot just be controlled or swayed by the little guy.  One needs to get to work.  One needs to drive.  If decisions were made today it would take 20-50 years to create the infrastructure for an alternative fuel supply. 

It's a chicken or egg thing really.  The auto manufacturers don't want all that R&D $ to be in vane if no refilling stations are created and cars are not sold.  The service stations don't want to build that infrastucture until they see usage from cars. 

Bigtime I am not a fan of government getting into business but MONEY talks.  Why are they not thinking about future?  10 billion a month spent on the Iraq war could really stimulate alternative fuels technology.  Once that is built then Iraq, Saudi and all other countries ARE trully just a Frickin' desert.  We don't need thier oil so go play in your giant sandbox!

I get this thought in my mind EVERY time I fill up.  How much of my money feeds terrorist activities.  That thought more than anything else concerns me.  Are we funding the next 911? 

The little guy?  I do not know about everyone else but recently I have thought more that ever to build somethings that runs on electrics.  How cool would it be if a grassroots movement could stimulate change on that angle?  Two concerns on a little project like this.  1. $ voltage controllers and batteries are friggin' expensive.  2. Would government enact laws to suppress that movement.  We are already seeing the desire to halt custom builts.

I hate conspirisay theories but why isn't there any stimulus come from our government.  It makes me wonder.
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HogBreath

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2008, 03:46:31 PM »

It's all just a viscious plot, perpetrated by the man, to keep the brothers down!  :smilie_daumenneg:
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IRyde

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2008, 03:50:24 PM »

It's all just a viscious plot, perpetrated by the man, to keep the brothers down!  :smilie_daumenneg:

 :znotworthy: :znotworthy: :znotworthy: :znotworthy: :zroflmao:
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grc

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2008, 03:55:51 PM »

It's all just a viscious plot, perpetrated by the man, to keep the brothers down!  :smilie_daumenneg:

Aw chit, now you done did it.  Now all those crazy conspiracy folks (who, me?) are going to jump in again. :nervous:

Jerry  :)
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Talon

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2008, 04:06:36 PM »

I have read several articles over the past few years about the hype of Hybrid cars. Beside the initial high cost, their more expensive to get repaired, can be very dangerous in a crash, due to higher amperage of the electrical equipment, and cost more to dispose of at the end of their life cycle. My son-in law is a fire fighter, they are getting special training and instruction on the potential electrical hazards of these cars. The figures in the link below may be a little off with the current increase in gas prices, but still not going to make up the difference. Buy a Mini!

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/06-01-2005/0003769331&EDATE=

http://finance.yahoo.com/loans/article/103976/Most-and-Least-Cost-Effective-Hybrids

http://www.autospies.com/news/What-Are-The-Most-and-least-Cost-Effective-Hybrids-23963/
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Fired00d

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2008, 04:11:37 PM »

I have read several articles over the past few years about the hype of Hybrid cars. Beside the initial high cost, their more expensive to get repaired, can be very dangerous in a crash, due to higher amperage of the electrical equipment, and cost more to dispose of at the end of their life cycle. My son-in law is a fire fighter, they are getting special training and instruction on the potential electrical hazards of these cars. The figures in the link below may be a little off with the current increase in gas prices, but still not going to make up the difference. Buy a Mini!

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/06-01-2005/0003769331&EDATE=

http://finance.yahoo.com/loans/article/103976/Most-and-Least-Cost-Effective-Hybrids

http://www.autospies.com/news/What-Are-The-Most-and-least-Cost-Effective-Hybrids-23963/
They do present a danger in FF'ing. You have to treat them as running/energized all the time. Fire is one thing (you can see it), but electricity you can't and it bites you hard. :nervous:

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NukeIT

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #51 on: May 23, 2008, 06:00:25 AM »

Honda is!  In 2008 Honda will be leasing the FCX, a hydrogen fueled car, in the LA (not Lower Alabama) area.  They will only be available in that area because of the availiability of fuel stations.  Honda is also devoleping a home fuel station for FCX owners.  This station will not only refuel the car but will also heat and power the home!

Here's some info.

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/?ef_id=1097:1:b4a59e655269721e62a880c431b60d34_11929322512_144344502012:GsXh@tB6B3YAAB5IN4wAAAAe:20080521211604

 $600 bones a month for 3 years and you can only lease it (damn that's steep).... so let me guess at the end of the lease it goes the way of the electric cars did in the 90's..... anybody remember them????

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grc

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #52 on: May 23, 2008, 08:35:40 AM »

$600 bones a month for 3 years and you can only lease it (damn that's steep).... so let me guess at the end of the lease it goes the way of the electric cars did in the 90's..... anybody remember them????



That's the same type of program that was used on the first hybrids also.  Leased to certain folks for a period of time and then returned to the manufacturer for analysis.  At least when the auto industry puts a test fleet on the road, they don't expect people to buy them and then pay through the nose to fix all the problems (hint, hint, H-D).

Jerry
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miker

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #53 on: May 23, 2008, 08:40:01 AM »

I just a  Honda Fit for my little girl...Nice car for the buck and built like a Honda!

http://automobiles.honda.com/fit/
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NukeIT

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #54 on: May 23, 2008, 09:18:19 AM »

That's the same type of program that was used on the first hybrids also.  Leased to certain folks for a period of time and then returned to the manufacturer for analysis.  At least when the auto industry puts a test fleet on the road, they don't expect people to buy them and then pay through the nose to fix all the problems (hint, hint, H-D).

Jerry

600 a month works out to a little over 21000 in three years for a car that you have no vested interest in, feels like paying through the nose to me.... At least they could do is make the payments in the 400's

 :soapbox:

Nuke
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outrider

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #55 on: May 23, 2008, 09:51:06 AM »

Yeah Tommy, but I'm talking about making your own hydrogen, on board, with your household garbage! Completely self-contained system. By product of the whole thing...H2O! Now that's clean, renewable energy! And solves loads of problems! And we ain't never gonna stop making garbage!!! ;D ;)

Hoist! 8)
Howie,
OK you've got my attention...If anybody else had told me they were going to process household garbage and produce enough hydrogen to power a vehicle with little or no byproduct (and no radioactive waste) I'd have dismissed it. I've been to your house, seen your home heating set up, and some of your gizmos. I'm all ears.
Also in response to talon you're absolutely right about the cost effectiveness of hybrids
I have some experience with Toyotas and the  difference in "cost of ownership" between Prius (which employs one of the more effective hybrid systems [so effective that Ford bought the technology]) and the Corolla (a comparably sized combustion vehicle) favors the Corolla until  you get to about the ninth year. Oh and by the way, the warranty on the hybrid battery system in the Prius? you guessed it 8 years...
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icybay

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #56 on: May 23, 2008, 10:33:13 AM »

Old News but worth revisiting, now that gas is twice as expensive as when this report was aired.......


Thursday, April 27, 2006 10:38 p.m. EDT

China Eyeing Cuba Offshore Oil

A shocking report aired on the Lou Dobbs show Thursday night revealed that Cuba has not only allowed China to drill but also to service an old Soviet refinery in Cuba while U.S. companies are locked out of the game. The Dobbs report also revealed that Venezuela's Castroite president, Hugo Chavez, has offered Chinese oil firms operating rights in his country.   

China and a host of other oil-hungry nations will be tapping into huge offshore oil deposits a mere 50 miles from the United States while this nation is forced to endure rising gas prices as a result of record high demand for oil fueled by such countries as China and India. 

According to Sen. Larry Craig, R-Idaho, the U.S. energy sector has been "hamstrung" from seeking additional oil resources while at the same time allowing "the likes of China, Canada, Brazil, Spain, France and others to freely seek energy opportunities 50 miles off our coast without competition from state-of-the-art technologies and expertise of our own U.S. gas and oil industries." 

In a speech on the Senate floor, Craig said that a February 2005 U.S. Geological Survey report described "a possible deposit in the North Cuba Basin estimated at 4.6 billion barrels of oil, and possibly as much as 9.3 billion barrels." He then reminded his colleagues "that estimates for Alaska National Wildlife Refuge range from 4 billion to 10 billion barrels." 

So, he said, "The question must be asked: 'What is the U.S. doing while foreign companies and countries are exploring right off the U.S. coast in the North Cuba Basin, which is adjacent to the U.S. Outer Continental Shelf and contiguous with this country's Exclusive Economic Zone?'  Well, I can firmly tell my colleagues that we are doing absolutely nothing. Not one single U.S. company is exploring in these potentially beneficial waters that extend to within 50 miles off the coast of Florida. So, we sit here watching China exploit a valuable resource within eyesight of the U.S. coast. I say -- not on my watch." 

Craig added that he is "certain the American public would be shocked, as this country is trying to reduce our dependency on Middle East oil, that countries like China are realizing this energy resource."

Story Continues Below

   

China, which he said is the world's second-largest user of petroleum products "is using this area off our coast, and in Cuban national waters, as a strategic commodities reserve. It is doing this by acquiring exclusive rights in the emerging Cuban offshore oil sector -- thereby forever closing the door on those resources to the U.S. industry and drastically impacting our foreign policy in the region." 

According to the Bush administration's "National Security Strategy," China is "expanding trade, but acting as if they can somehow lock up energy supplies around the world or seek to direct markets rather than opening them up." 


Craig wants to introduce legislation that will allow the United States to operate in these waters off our southern coast, adding that we cannot allow China to lock up a potentially lucrative oil supply for life in our own backyard     
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Wrongway

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #57 on: May 23, 2008, 10:55:24 AM »

I looked at the hybrids when comparing the 2006 Civic, $16,900 for the LX Civic 5 speed estimated mpg 38 hwy.( I got 39.4 on my last tank). Hybrid Civic $23,000, estimated mpg 45 hwy. How many miles will I have to drive to offset the $6,000 extra at 5 mpg better? No sale for me! P.S. my CUSE has never gotten 40 mpg and was estimated a 50 mpg!
I take a lot of flack from my friends that work at GM plants, but when America can build a car as reliable as Japan and get 40 mpg, I'll buy it! OK I,m off my  :soapbox: now. Thanks for having me.  Dave
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Free

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2008, 02:57:56 AM »

Howie, the auto companies aren't going to sell the hybrids at a loss just because the oil companies are raking in the big bucks, so I don't follow your logic.  Who should be providing the incentives?  Oil companies? (yeah, right)  Uncle Sam? (he's already broke)  :nixweiss:


Jerry   ;)



The best thing for the government to do is get out of the way. As oil prices rise, people will demand and suppliers will provide alternative energy choices. Its how capitalism works and its still the best system in the world. We have been spoiled on cheap energy for a long time and now its starting to turn and it will force us to find alternatives.  If the government really wanted to push alternative fuels technology, the best economic way would be to tax the crap on oil which would force people to look for, demand and ultimately allow the private sector to deliver alternatives. I am not advocating that, but my point is that IF the government wanted alternative fuels (because of global warming, dependence on rogue nations in the middle east or whatever reason), they would be more effective by incentivizing change by making it more expensive rather than trying to pick the right technologies through subsidizing them (like ethanol).

Free

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grc

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2008, 09:40:53 AM »

The best thing for the government to do is get out of the way. As oil prices rise, people will demand and suppliers will provide alternative energy choices. Its how capitalism works and its still the best system in the world. We have been spoiled on cheap energy for a long time and now its starting to turn and it will force us to find alternatives.  If the government really wanted to push alternative fuels technology, the best economic way would be to tax the crap on oil which would force people to look for, demand and ultimately allow the private sector to deliver alternatives. I am not advocating that, but my point is that IF the government wanted alternative fuels (because of global warming, dependence on rogue nations in the middle east or whatever reason), they would be more effective by incentivizing change by making it more expensive rather than trying to pick the right technologies through subsidizing them (like ethanol).

Free

Exactly!  This subject was debated fairly heavily during fuel glitches back in the 70's and 80's, but our career politicians didn't have the cajones (or brains) to add taxes to motor fuel to gradually force the populace toward higher efficiency vehicles, and ultimately toward alternate fuels.  Unfortunately, the inaction of our "leaders" over the past few decades means that we now get to experience major changes to our lifestyles rather than a gradual adjustment over time. 

I'm taking bets about what will happen once the current speculator driven pricing stabilizes (I'm thinking we will see oil prices retreat later this year to something closer to $80 per barrel).  Just as in the past, when the immediate problem starts to ease with the retreat in prices at the pump, this subject will once more be ignored by our government and the average citizen.  It will be business as usual, and those huge vehicles will once again be flying off dealers lots.  Face it, we Americans seem to enjoy doing what is ultimately not good for us.  Lousy diets that are slowly killing us, easy credit that is encouraging poor economic choices, wasting resources faster than any other group in the world.  And when it all catches up to us, we don't step back and say, "I sure was a dumb ass".  Oh no, we all sit back and look for someone else to blame for our crappy health, our unmanageable debt, or the fact we don't have cheap gas anymore.   

Jerry
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