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[gflvette2]

 Brian  your right . It handles like a dream.

[110tHunDer]

. . .

But hey, check it out. SIX GUYS ON THIS BOARD RIGHT NOW. We haven't seen that around here in awhile!

Hoist!

Hey, guys, we need to be careful not to blow the FXR board up!   There were 10 people (8 members and 2 guests) viewing this board at one time just now!

[Hoist!]

Hey, guys, we need to be careful not to blow the FXR board up!   There were 10 people (8 members and 2 guests) viewing this board at one time just now!

And so another chapter begins!

Hoist!

[FXR2evo99]

1996 1200S Sportster Photo Below:

Wednesday evening I was reacquainting myself with one of my resource books and hmmmmmm look what I found, hmmmmm a 1996 1200S Sportster which depicts among its features, the "latest" cartridge-type forks, with dual rate and adjustments for spring preload and both compression and rebound damping.  The "shocks" were "deluxe"  units with the same adjustments, and they featured a remote piggyback reservoir  which is "nitrogen" pressurized/charged.  They were considered the "best" "suspenders" ever mounted by the factory......  LOOKS QUITE FAMILIAR to the "BITUBO" shocks that Hoist called attention to up above....What I am saying is MAYBE OLE HOIST IS ON TO SOMETHING HERE LOL!!!     

The author goes on to articulate that while all these changes didn't transform the old "Sporty" into a Ninja-killer, they did make the 1200S "Sportster" the "best-handling" Harley since the late FXRS-SP Low Rider Sport's Edition, and one that's a quantum leap more fun in the "twisties". Frankly, he states, "all the suspsension and adjustments can bewilder the "unaccustomed" rider at first, but once the fork and shocks are dialed in, they transform the 1200S "Sportster" into a "different breed" of Harley.  <~~~~If you read the thread below, you will get the feeling that's what almost everyone speaks about with the "BiTubo" shocks as well....until they figure them out and what they want to do....

Here is the link that Hoist provided to the "BiTubo" shocks he was talking just to reference it and make it easier if one cares to read through it again:
http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=13951.msg218649#msg218649


Alrighty.....I just thought all of this was quite interesting.....another thing that is equally interesting is that they COMBINED these type of shocks with the "cartridge" forks as well.....

Does anyone know about these actual shocks that were put on the 1996 1200S Sportsters? Who made them for Harley, anyone know?  Anyone know how they actually worked?  Given the "author's statements above and the fact thatthe statements were made sometime during 2000 when the Book was "penned" it would leave one to assume that his "high marks" might be reflective of what the general population felt about this particular set up....at least there was 4 years between when the 1996 1200S Sportster came out with the shocks and the cartridge forks and when he made his comments.

So what's my point?  LOL My point is here is an exact type of "setup" supporting what ole Hoist is saying......DANG IT!!!!! LOL DANG IT DANG IT DANG IT.....lol.....

Ok...so here is the question now....does anyone know of the cartridge forks that were actually put on the 1996 1200S Sportster whether they are the same ones that were later put on the 2000 or so FXDX "sport dyna" model?  I would still like to know know the differences in quality between the Dyna FXDX, and these 1200S Sportster fork tube cartridges and the Traxxion ones as well.....

ISN'T THIS QUITE INTERESTING.....that there are such CLOSE SIMULARITIES?  Or is it just me making something out of nothing?

Input, ideas, reflections......

I just think it's amazing, myself....

Ok going to listen to Hoist a bit more....still looking for 'quantative" reasoning on why this set up might be good....I wrote all that stuff before about percentages and would love to hear "everyone's reflections on the matter...

IF YOU RIGHT CLICK WITH YOUR MOUSE OVER THE PHOTO YOU CAN MAKE IT LARGER FOR BETTER VIEWING

Regards,


Tim

[FXR2evo99]

1996 1200S Sportster Full View Photo:

Here is another "scanned" photo remember if you click on the photo you can make it larger!

[Hoist!]

HeHe!!! Live and learn, huh Tim!

Not sure if it's the same cartidge forks as the FXDX. I was trying to determine that myself. I found this on the FXDX from a review (link attached):

"The roots of such sporting proficiency lie in the details. Start with an adjustable 39mm Showa fork carrying four-piston Hayes calipers and dual front discs. The Showa rear shocks are adjustable for spring preload and both kinds of damping. They're also long enough to create actual cornering clearance."

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/features/122_0511_1999_2005_harley_davidson_fxdx/index.html

http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/roadtests/2000_harley_davidson_fxdx_dyna_super_glide_sport/index.html

I believe the Sportster front end and shocks are both Showa. The FXDX uses an adjustable cartridge fork like you said, with an adjustable rear shock without a remote reservoir. These were developed for the adjustability required in Sport BikeRacing. Ohlins is a company that has a good rep with them and furnish racing suspensions for Sport Bikes. bitubo is an Irtalian Racing Shock Co too, but they had the forsight to work with Traxxion to develop these for our HD's.

Now you know there are true  higher performance options for our suspensions. No one that I know of besides myself has done these mods on anything but HD Touring bikes. But once I put it on Cybil, I knew it belonged on anything I ride from here on in!

Hoist!

[110tHunDer]

Did I miss an earlier post Brian  What kind of exhaust did ya change too? 

Blaine, bike had a set of V&H Straightshots on it when I got it, but the chrome was a little suspect.  I scored another NIB set and swapped everything out.  Love the looks and sound of those pipes, just needed better chrome!

More info. in the Evo section here: http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=25728.0

[Hoist!]

Tim, take a look at this. It's another review of Traxxion's suspension components. This guy used the parts to LOWER his bike from stock. He felt a night and day difference with the SHORTER Traxxion suspension, and the stock higher one. I find review after review about this suspension to be similar in response. Worth taking a look at this. Ir's an excellent report.

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=22829.msg421252#msg421252

Hoist!

[110tHunDer]

. . .

Ok going to listen to Hoist a bit more....still looking for 'quantative" reasoning on why this set up might be good....I wrote all that stuff before about percentages and would love to hear "everyone's reflections on the matter...

. . .

Tim, take a look at this. It's another review of Traxxion's suspension components. This guy used the parts to LOWER his bike from stock. He felt a night and day difference with the SHORTER Traxxion suspension, and the stock higher one. I find review after review about this suspension to be similar in response. Worth taking a look at this. Ir's an excellent report.

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=22829.msg421252#msg421252

Hoist!

Tim, you can't "quantify" the way a bike feels!   But all these guys rave about the Traxxion/Bitubo combination.  I haven't seen one negative report on this setup yet, and there are quite a number here who have taken the plunge, expensive as it may be.

Hmmmm, come to think of it, maybe the number of glowing reviews of these products and the effect on the handling of our bikes could be classified as "quantitative reasoning."

[FXR2evo99]

Hoist,

Thank you for sending me more to read.....

Brian~~ ".....maybe the number of glowing reviews of these products and the effect on the handling of our bikes could be classified as "quantitative reasoning......."

LoL well when you put it that way..... ok ok ok ok <~~~again feels like Joe Pesci but I am STILL NOT GOING DOWN THIS EASY...    I would enjoy more dialogue on this subject from those whom have put this set up in their "lighter" bikes ie: FXR's or a dyna of some sort....I am interested in mixing apples with apples now....  Brian, let me address it this way....back in 2004 I purchased my 2002 RKC, as soon as I got on the bike.....the very first stop I made, my bike dove away from me...and I mean it dove....it's like my arms needed to be extended the front forks seemed to have that much "free play" per say.  I said this isn't working for me....back during that time, "Race Tech Emulators" were often times being brought up in tech talk discussions....so I immediately spent the $270.00 for the Race Tech Emulators "plus" their specific "race tech" spring removed my "progressive" style "OEM" springs [by the way everyone knows that "OEM" springs are a "progressively wound spring correct?] I assisted the "indy" mechanic with the installation of the new "race" tech springs, the new "race tech" emulators, and we put in Bel~Ray 20w Fork Oil, now here is where I am a bit unclear, I was just too "unfamiliar" with the process at the time to know exactly the amount of Bel~Ray 20w Fork Oil he put in as well as knowing precisely what "amount" was removed as well....I also installed chromed fork lowers as well.  Ok so I went from a bike that dove at stop lights and in my mind the bike "dove" severely.  I also noticed shortly after acquiring my bike that when taking sweeping curves at say 70 miles an hour that my front wheel would "oscillate" a bit or perhaps "wallow" a bit, you know where it seems like the bike and the forks begin to slightly "float" up and down....essentially not remaining firm.....of course with a RKC one has "spoked" / "laced" wheels.  After doing the install of the Bel~Ray 20w Fork Oil, "Race Tech" Spring, & the "Race Tech" Emulators, I noticed an "extreme amount of difference.....the bike "quit" diving completely, the bike handled well in the corners, everything "tightened" up very well....This summer I replaced my fork oil again, with Bel~Ray 20w and because I wasn't "precisely" aware of what the "indy" actually installed, I simply "precisely" measured what came out and put back in exactly the same amount in....which was 10 oz.  I also last spring replaced my spoke wheels with "standard" oem road king mag black 9 spoke wheels. I can tell you that my cornering even improved more....as the result of less "flex" occurring within the wheels themselves.....OK....so what's my point....my point in sharing the above....is if you asked me how do I like the handling of my RKC I would tell you I like it very much.  But if you were to ask me what do I associate my improvement to, I couldn't honestly tell you whether, perhaps it was the weight of the fork oil I removed, or the "amount" of the fork oil I replaced back into the forks, or whether it was the "new" "race tech" spring, or whether it was indeed the new "race tech" emulators....I can pronounce that there is an improvement in cornering from going to "laced" wheels to "mag" wheels....now whether that is associated with perhaps my "laced" wheels being "loose" I am not sure....I always asked the "indy" to always tighten the spokes when changing tires....but who knows for sure right?  

So here is my point finally....I am very happy with my 2002 Road King Classic's handling ability and if you were to ask me how to get the same sort of riding experience I am, would I have any choice other than suggesting that you put in 10 oz of Bel~Ray 20w Fork Oil, "Race Tech Springs", and "Race Tech Emulators".  I have no way of knowing what to attribute percentage wise to each of those variables, because I failed to do anything in steps.  SO I am sure people in general are experiencing a better performing "SERK" or "Road King" or "Touring Bike" based upon putting the Traxxion AK-20 Suspension in, as well as the new "shocks", but what about the amount of oil they are running or the weight....what if they had done steps incrementially....I did read where guys were attempting to put a "percentage" value in comparing having the Progressive 440 shocks vs the "BiTubo" shocks...and they seemed to be having a difficult time quantifying what they perceived as the difference..... SO I don't doubt that people are "happy" with their traxxion AK-20 suspensions along with their "BiTubo" shocks.....but we as harley riders are very impatient....we don't like 'testing" generally....we don't like our bikes "torn" down when we could be riding....and because of this we tend to "leap" into changes....and marvel at our results....So....has anyone taken the "baby" steps to know what differences they are experiencing...

(continue)

[FXR2evo99]

(Continued)

I CAN TELL YOU THIS.....each one of you should be using a Fork Brace on a 39mm fork tube....you will have less flex and better performance....is it worth $250.00 ABSOLUTELY!.  My buddy rode without one on his FXR3 for 2 years before finally purchasing one of mine that I took off prior to selling my 2003 FXDL, he sees a strong improvement....He got that from me for $120.00 so his improvment is even better than my "financially" but I wouldn't be going up the canyons here without a Fork Brace....so obviously I am passionate about fork braces lol...but I can talk to you about the benefits....what you will feel differently with and without a fork brace....So earlier when I talked about a fork brace....it's just another "element" within the suspension that is available to us to manipulate and improve....by making the forks stronger with less flex...which when entering into a corner helps to keep you from "skipping" through a corner....remember, I am keeping this in terms of a FXR not a Buell or a Sport Crotch Rocket....
I am REALLY NOT trying to    <~~~yeah that's right....lol....

But remember this frame is already one of the stiffest frames HD has ever built.....and what you take from one's experience needs to be applied to this bike seperately.....I will throw this out there....and maybe this is the demarcation line per say....think about it HD says ok we will create something we haven't done before, we are going to create a "CVO" bike with everything on the bike that will allow it to perform....and then at the very same time they lower the bike to the "lowest" ground clearance of all the FXR's the FXR2 ground clearance is 4.58" the FXR4 is 4.48" they don't add the FXRS-SP Low Rider Sport Edition forks or a pair of FXDX front cartridge forks or a set of 1996 1200S Sportster cartridge forks or the special" shocks either.....and you know why....they probably felt the improvements of those were not warranted within the confines of the "design" of the bike....

One CONSISTANT theme I am hearing from Hoist on this matter is his mentioning that he is willing to RAISE the bike up....aprx 1" that's obviously a direction in performance....so that's why I feel his thoughts have some merit....

Come on guys the best selling bikes right now for HD are the softails and they have always been since they came out, why, because it's all about how "low" you ride....the "slammed" look and feel....if you want a "peformance" bike....you go out and buy a true sport bike ie: crotch rocket....that is the height of some dirt bikes...to create the lean angles you need to "carve" the corners.....

S0 has anyone ever owned a 1200S Sportster with the appointments mentioned above?  Or a FXDX?  Or a dyna or FXR set up with traxxion AK-20 and Bitubo shocks....I suppose if Hoist will take his time he can take us through the steps....ie: changing the fork oil and amount....maybe then change a spring then into the springs....what about "progressive" shocks for this bike as well.....Mike has brought up an interesting point for all of us these FOX shocks are no longer available to acquire by walking into a dealer....so eventually something different is going to go on....





Ok so another question, has anyone had the Traxxion set up in their bikes long enough yet to require changing fork oil?  If so what was the procedure and how does it differ from doing one's forks when they only have dampening rods...ie: like our FXR2s, FXR3s, and FXR4s as well as say you guys running them in say a "road king" if you have no "OEM" cartridge?   So my question is how "complicated" is it to change the fork oil with these "traxxion AK-20 fork set up?  Would one simply drain from the bottom removing the drain plug screw and then simply pour in the "correct" amount or is there something much more involved?   So what's the maintenance setup for our FXR's?


Regards,


Tim

[Hoist!]

Tim, Tim, Tim, what are we gonna do? You have some excellent questions. The fork oil's recommended to be changed at 25K miles. The fork must be disassembled again for this. I plan to ship my legs back to Traxxion to get them done at 25K (I've about 15K on mine now). I have them for my '85 FXWG, but it's not completed and haven't ridden on it yet. I've got friends with FXDX's and have ridden the bike. It's much better than a plain 39mm, but it ain't Traxxion! Markedly different and better than stock, but not to the level of Traxxion.

I'm kinda doing some of what you suggest in the end of your post, to Joy. I have Jim change my fork oil and putting 20W in. I've ridden many a stock 39mm front ends and know that it's not adequate. I might drop heavier springs in if I can't live with it. I'm not doing the Traxxion right away on Joy. But believe me, she will have Traxxion eventually! I'll report how I like it with the heavier fork oil. And maybe I'll get to report on heavier fork oil with better springs. But you'll also eventually get my report on it with Traxxion installed. I'm confident that it'll be every bit of a rave as I've made for it in Cybil!

And I fully agree with you about a fork brace. Mine's in my garage waiting for Joy to arrive!!!

Question to the group. Has anyone had any problems with breaking inner primaries due to flexing? FXR's had a history of this with performance engines and people beating on, or racing them. They found at higher HP's and thru racing them, that they would break inner primaries due to the stress of the flexing it was encountering. Carlini came out with a product called a Torque Arm. HD even aggreed to the point where they were offering a Screamin' Eagle version of it. I believe it was made by Carlini too, but not positive. Just curious if ya'll are aware of this, had experienced it, or have added a Torque Arm? With the stock 80" motor and CA cam in it now, I'm not concerned. But whe she's ready for some engine hop-ups, I'll probably be adding this to Joytoo!

Hoist!

[FXR2evo99]

Hoist~~~

Question to the group. Has anyone had any problems with breaking inner primaries due to flexing? FXR's had a history of this with performance engines and people beating on, or racing them. They found at higher HP's and thru racing them, that they would break inner primaries due to the stress of the flexing it was encountering. Carlini came out with a product called a Torque Arm. HD even aggreed to the point where they were offering a Screamin' Eagle version of it. I believe it was made by Carlini too, but not positive. Just curious if ya'll are aware of this, had experienced it, or have added a Torque Arm? With the stock 80" motor and CA cam in it now, I'm not concerned. But whe she's ready for some engine hop-ups, I'll probably be adding this to Joytoo!

I am not completely sure that what I have copied and pasted from the History of the FXR thread will completely address your question above but it might in part settle perhaps some of them.....As for me I personally have not heard of any FXR inner primary issues outside of the ones that might surround a couple of the seals and an 1 O~Ring that can wear out and leak....of which I have replaced on my bike....but as for the "stiffness" of the "inner" primary, I haven't heard of ONE FXR2, FXR3, or FXR4 having any issues.....now of course this could be in part a correlation to the "CVO" element of the bike in that most are keeping the "power plants" fairly stock....

Here are the applicable notes:
Midyear of 1994 new cylinder studs and base gaskets were introduced that really helped eliminate base-gasket leaks.  IF you look closely another modification for the 1999 FXR2’s FXR3’s and 2000 FXR4’s were given the same outer primary cover as used on the Twin Cam outer primary for touring models with more “ribs” to stiffen it.  While the Evolution engine was mainly an “update” “from the base gasket up”, the Twin Cam was essentially all new, top to bottom.  (By 1999, though, you could also call the Evo all new from top to bottom, too, because nearly every part of it had been updated between 1984 and 1999.  Though 1999 was the end for the EVO Big Twin engines being only used in the 1999 FXR2’s FXR3’s and the Softail models, the ONLY 2000 model to carry the EVO motor was the 2000 FXR4 produced in the silver powder coat on the engine cases.

Sounds like perhaps we can convince you to be our NEW R&D Administrator....yes indeed, it would be great if you took this process in small steps so we can all decide if the benefits are reflective of being worthy additions to ones bike.....I am here already saying the Fork Brace is a good addition as well as adding Bel~Ray 20w Fork Oil 10 oz in each fork tube....Oh I more thing....of course I am also here to say that a 19" wheel is a better performing wheel than a 21" as well....in cornering....but I like the look of the lace wheel so I know I am loosing some performance by not using a mag at this point as well.

Regards,

Tim

[FXR2evo99]

Blaine....

I believe we might see different part numbers being referenced here....if what I typed above holds true....so one would need to know what his part number is/was for his 89 inner primary and then compare it to the "CVO" FXRs.

Regards,

Tim

[Hoist!]

Blaine....

I believe we might see different part numbers being referenced here....if what I typed above holds true....so one would need to know what his part number is/was for his 89 inner primary and then compare it to the "CVO" FXRs.

Regards,

Tim

That was actually why I asked Tim. If I know they're they same, then I know they're prone to this. Unless you've worked with Hi Po FXR's, you'll probably never hear of this. A stock 80" doesn't usually break em. You do a lot of wheelies, you'll probably break on eventually. So now we need to determine the differences, if any, from up to '94 FXR IP's to the '99/'00 FXR's. Anyone know or have P/N's?

BTW, even Thunderheader had one built into their muffler support bracket for their pipe on a FXR. Don't know if the still use the same design, but it used to be part of a Thunderheader System.

Hoist!