Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2 3  All

Author Topic: Loops - ECM - Tuners - Maps: I Need Help!  (Read 4920 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

bribe36

  • Elite CVO Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 874

    • CVO1: 2009 SERG
Loops - ECM - Tuners - Maps: I Need Help!
« on: October 21, 2008, 01:30:34 AM »

My name is Brian and I Need HELP! There I said it, so now the healing can begin.

I've been reading the posts about exhaust upgrades and it is all greek to me. I what my SERG to rumble the way it was meant to. I've removed the cat and now I'm adding the 2" Fullsac cores. I don't plan on doing anything more than that. Some of the posts I've read say I'm good to go while other say even a stock bike needs upgrades because it runs too lean.

I must have been sick the day they taught this stuff in HD101 cause I know nothing about loops, ECM, tuners, Maps, SERT & Super SERT. Can someone educate me on loops, tuners / Maps ( do I need one, can I add it myself, cost, can the dealer do it, is it a one time setup, does it void the warranty), ECM and whatever else I need to know to avoid hurting myself.  ;D

« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 01:55:15 AM by bribe36 »
Logged

HogBreath

  • 5k CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5351
  • FLHRSEI.ORG

    • CVO1: 2009 cvo roadglide
    • CVO2: 2014 CVO StreetKing
Re: Loops - ECM - Tuners - Maps: I Need Help!
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2008, 06:46:53 AM »

My name is Brian and I Need HELP! There I said it, so now the healing can begin.

I've been reading the posts about exhaust upgrades and it is all greek to me. I what my SERG to rumble the way it was meant to. I've removed the cat and now I'm adding the 2" Fullsac cores. I don't plan on doing anything more than that. Some of the posts I've read say I'm good to go while other say even a stock bike needs upgrades because it runs too lean.

I must have been sick the day they taught this stuff in HD101 cause I know nothing about loops, ECM, tuners, Maps, SERT & Super SERT. Can someone educate me on loops, tuners / Maps ( do I need one, can I add it myself, cost, can the dealer do it, is it a one time setup, does it void the warranty), ECM and whatever else I need to know to avoid hurting myself.  ;D



Hey Brian,

You sound like me. I still don't know anything about this stuff, but, I've been forced to dig into it by owning a HD and making a few changes. Here's my take on it. Others may tell you different.

I'd say you could put different slip ons mufflers on w/o having to remap the ECM. Anything more than that, and you'll need to remap. These bikes are running too lean in my humble opinion, and need a little help.

I'd start off doing a little research in your area to see who is the best tuner. Some tuners use the SERT. Some prefer to use a power commander. Both units basically do the samwe thing, re map the ECM. (Electronic Control Module). Speak to the tuner you find and go with his recommendations. Be careful who you decide to go with because most of these guys couldn't tune a fiddle. In my opinion once you decide to properly tune your bike, that is the time to add more air in and more exhaust out. Consider a high flow air filter, a different set of header pipes, and the exhaust mufflers that you like.
Logged
It's not the destination. It's the Journey.

miker

  • 5k CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8710

    • CVO1: 2009FLHTCUSE4
Re: Loops - ECM - Tuners - Maps: I Need Help!
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2008, 07:38:45 AM »

What he said.  Epa mandates a certain emission rate for these engines.  These engines by design do not do well at that rate and need to be fattened up witha little more fuel.  The only way to add fuel nowadays to to get into the ecm and add it, can't just re-jet the carb anymore...You'll be amazed on how different it will run.

Good luck.

Mine is still stock for now, a new exhaust, air cleaner, ecm modification and fluids swap are coming soon.
Logged

Texas 103

  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1483
  • FLHRSEI.ORG
    • TX

    • CVO1: 2016 "RGU"
Re: Loops - ECM - Tuners - Maps: I Need Help!
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2008, 08:15:35 AM »

My name is Brian and I Need HELP! There I said it, so now the healing can begin.

I've been reading the posts about exhaust upgrades and it is all greek to me. I what my SERG to rumble the way it was meant to. I've removed the cat and now I'm adding the 2" Fullsac cores. I don't plan on doing anything more than that. Some of the posts I've read say I'm good to go while other say even a stock bike needs upgrades because it runs too lean.

I must have been sick the day they taught this stuff in HD101 cause I know nothing about loops, ECM, tuners, Maps, SERT & Super SERT. Can someone educate me on loops, tuners / Maps ( do I need one, can I add it myself, cost, can the dealer do it, is it a one time setup, does it void the warranty), ECM and whatever else I need to know to avoid hurting myself.  ;D




I would personally stay with a SERT, I works well with a good tuner that knows his stuff and in my eyes if you ever have a problem on the road and have anything "Brand X" on it... SOME dealers won't touch it....  Greg 
Logged
Too Much of a good thing is just right !! Then more is always better

MUFFMAN

  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2100
  • FLHRSEI.ORG

    • CVO1: 07 FLHTUSE2
    • CVO2: 09 FLTRSE3
Re: Loops - ECM - Tuners - Maps: I Need Help!
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2008, 08:22:08 AM »


I would personally stay with a SERT, I works well with a good tuner that knows his stuff and in my eyes if you ever have a problem on the road and have anything "Brand X" on it... SOME dealers won't touch it....  Greg 

Just remember to take the software cd with you where ever you go. THE MUFFMAN
Logged

Screamin

  • 5k CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5087
  • Number 641

    • CVO1: 2005 SEEG2 Cherry
    • CVO2: 2019 Road Glide Ultra
Re: Loops - ECM - Tuners - Maps: I Need Help!
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2008, 08:34:01 AM »

Mostly good info here. Check the HD Screaming Eagle Parts Cat. page 25. You MUST have the little black module w/ the red button for anyone to adjust your bike once installed.

http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US/Media/downloads/Racing/US_SE_P.pdf

Part No. 32109-08A

And, per Harley, For race application only.  -  Yeah right.  ;)
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 08:36:01 AM by Screamin »
Logged

grc

  • 10K CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14216
  • AKA Grouchy Old Fart
    • IN


    • CVO1: 2005 SEEG2
Re: Loops - ECM - Tuners - Maps: I Need Help!
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2008, 09:07:00 AM »

Brian, this is a subject that has the potential to start as many arguments as our dearly departed political threads, and there really isn't one definitive answer that fit's everyone.  With that disclaimer in mind, here is my offering on Harley tuning.

The stock EPA mandated AFR (air to fuel ratio) is 14.7:1, which is considered to be the perfect ratio to provide just the right amount of oxygen to completely burn the available fuel.  Unfortunately, due to various design factors of the Harley engine, that AFR results in high engine temperatures and in many cases poor drivability (stumble, stall, lazy light throttle response, etc.).  The traditional answer with all Harleys, even the carburetor versions of the good ol' days, was to add a little more fuel to the mixture.  This improves the drivability and the evaporation of the excess fuel in the cylinders actually cools the engine as well.  The situation becomes more complicated with electronic fuel injection, and now instead of just changing a physical jet in a carburetor we have to deal with bypass devices, tuning devices, etc.  Ultimately, what you want to achieve will dictate which of the alternative methods you should use.

First, for those who only want to do the basic muffler changes and reduce the engine temps, there is the simple Nightrider device that plugs in between the O2 (oxygen) sensors and the ECM (electronic control module).  The sensors constantly sample the exhaust for the 14.7:1 AFR, and by varying voltage they signal the ECM to either add more fuel or subtract fuel to stay at the 14.7:1 ratio.  The Nightrider device just fools the ECM by modifying the signal from the sensors.  One model sets the ratio at 14.2:1, another uses 14.0:1, another 13.8:1, and there is a new version which is adjustable.  Which one would you want to use?  If fuel economy and range is important, stick with the higher numbers.  As you add more fuel, you naturally will see a drop in fuel economy and an increase in exhaust emissions.  This is the least expensive and most easily undone of the available modifications, and if you have no desire to make future changes or are worried about warranty implications, this may be all you will ever need.

Next up are the simple add-on boxes from just about everyone, with the multiple buttons or screws to adjust fuel in various portions of the rpm range.  The first of these was the DFO / Techlusion, and now many exhaust vendors offer their own versions of these potentiometer based devices.  Basically what they do is intercept the signal from the ECM to the actual fuel injectors and add more fuel based on the button or screw settings.  The amount of fuel is controlled by how long the injector is open, an amount of time called "pulse width".  These tuners take the ECM calculated pulse width, modify it, and then pass the new pulse width along to the injector.  These devices make no permanent changes to the bike and like the Nightrider device can be easily removed.

Next are the map based tuning devices.  A "map" is just a big lookup table or database that contains all the settings the ECM uses to decide what amount of fuel to inject, what ignition timing to use, etc.  The ECM is a computer that receives input from various engine sensors (speed, temperature, throttle position, crankshaft position, etc.), plugs those values in to formulas, compares the results to the database/table, and then sends instructions to the injectors and ignition system.  Some of the map based tuning systems actually change the map stored in the ECM, like the Super Sert or the Master Tune, or they have their own internal map like a Power Commander and do not modify the ECM map.  These work by modifying the output of the ECM based on the PC map, similar to the black box tuners mentioned above.  The difference is that the PC is able to modify many more parameters than the black box tuners, with much more precision.  The PC is similar to the black box units in that it can be removed fairly easily without leaving a trace.  The Super Sert leaves information in the ECM that a dealer can read, so if warranty is a major consideration for you that will have to be factored in to your decision.  In my opinion, the Super Sert and aftermarket versions of it are the ultimate for those who want to be able to control every facet of operation or who intend major modifications.  However, as others will advise you, before you spend a ton of money on this type of tuning device you need to find a good tuner and discuss what you want to achieve with that person.  They should be able to steer you to what they consider to be the best device to achieve your desired results.

Hope this helped and didn't just muddy the waters a little more.

Jerry
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 04:57:37 PM by grc »
Logged
Jerry - 2005 Cherry SEEG  -  Member # 1155

H-D and me  -  a classic love / hate relationship.  Current score:  love 40, hate 50, bewildered 10.

Screamin

  • 5k CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5087
  • Number 641

    • CVO1: 2005 SEEG2 Cherry
    • CVO2: 2019 Road Glide Ultra
Re: Loops - ECM - Tuners - Maps: I Need Help!
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2008, 09:13:58 AM »

Jerry;

That's about the best synopsis I've ever read. Thanks.
Logged

miker

  • 5k CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8710

    • CVO1: 2009FLHTCUSE4
Re: Loops - ECM - Tuners - Maps: I Need Help!
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2008, 09:15:09 AM »

Yep, Jerry has it...I prefer the sert, it is just me and not my only problem.   :huepfenjump3:
Logged

Bungy

  • Senior CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 474
  • Keep your stick on the ice
    • AB


    • CVO1: '08 SEUC annie
Re: Loops - ECM - Tuners - Maps: I Need Help!
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2008, 11:27:07 AM »

Just remember to take the software cd with you where ever you go. THE MUFFMAN

You don't need the software - only the dongle.
Logged
I used to have a handle on life, but it broke.

timo482

  • Elite CVO Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 860
Re: Loops - ECM - Tuners - Maps: I Need Help!
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2008, 01:17:24 PM »

And of course - if you modify anything, other than legal parts, the warranty from hd is void - the dealer may warranty it - but hd wont. Once you go down the path of header pipes and ecm mods etc you are on your own dime, thats fine and all, just dont think that uncle hd will fix it when it breaks.
Logged

bribe36

  • Elite CVO Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 874

    • CVO1: 2009 SERG
Re: Loops - ECM - Tuners - Maps: I Need Help!
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2008, 11:33:36 PM »

The fog is starting to lift, some great information.  I'm still wondering what the cost for this could be. Also is it possible to have the dealer "update" my ECM without adding a tuner?
Logged

miker

  • 5k CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8710

    • CVO1: 2009FLHTCUSE4
Re: Loops - ECM - Tuners - Maps: I Need Help!
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2008, 08:40:48 AM »

Cost of a tuning device, ssert or tts add a tuning session.  I think my last one was $800 for all.

I have a ssert now for my 09cuse4 but will wait a little while the exhaust get jethot coated and then we'll see the difference between sert a ssert...I think the battery in my pc is dead but that cost shouldn't count!
Logged

Talon

  • Life is like a jar of jalapenos, what you do today may get you in the a$$ tomorrow!
  • 2.5K CVO Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4072
Re: Loops - ECM - Tuners - Maps: I Need Help!
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2008, 08:48:56 AM »

Cost of a tuning device, ssert or tts add a tuning session.  I think my last one was $800 for all.

I have a ssert now for my 09cuse4 but will wait a little while the exhaust get jethot coated and then we'll see the difference between sert a ssert...I think the battery in my pc is dead but that cost shouldn't count!

Yea, but if you just changing pipes and A/C you might just get a canned map that will get you pretty close. I did this and then took my bike to a independent shop, for $75 they put it on the dyno did a base line and fixed a couple of spots in my PCIII map, one was a little lean, the other a little rich. Then ran it on the dyno again, so I had $365 including the PCIII, bike runs pretty good. I'll get a full dyno tune after I do cams and heads. Just depends on you final setup, I didn't want to pay for all that dyno time twice!
Logged

miker

  • 5k CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8710

    • CVO1: 2009FLHTCUSE4
Re: Loops - ECM - Tuners - Maps: I Need Help!
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2008, 08:58:13 AM »

Yea, but if you just changing pipes and A/C you might just get a canned map that will get you pretty close. I did this and then took my bike to a independent shop, for $75 they put it on the dyno did a base line and fixed a couple of spots in my PCIII map, one was a little lean, the other a little rich. Then ran it on the dyno again, so I had $365 including the PCIII, bike runs pretty good. I'll get a full dyno tune after I do cams and heads. Just depends on you final setup, I didn't want to pay for all that dyno time twice!

No doubt there... I did the same on a S&S 106, loaded a canned map, a gentle break in then rode the chit out if adjusted, tweaked and rode the chit of it.  The owner got anal and went to dyno...8 hours, pile-o- money later, 1 h.p. 3 ft/lbs tq. over what was there...It ran good til he munched a pushrod and lifter last month.

The azz dyno can be very accurate to fine tune a canned map.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3  All
 

Page created in 0.2 seconds with 24 queries.