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[RickC]

Randall,

I respectfully disagree. Mastertune absolutely reprograms your stock ECM.... The Harley stock ECM is the brain, or computer module, a piece of hardware, that tells when the spark plugs need to fire, timing, fuel flow in closed loop AND open loop, it can adjust the speedometer, and a whole lot more. The TTS dongle and the software programs that accompany the TTS kit simply allow you to modify the settings, or reprogram the ECM.

I think we're saying the same thing here, just using terminology differently. I'm a software developer. To me, reprogramming the ECM means replacing the actual logic of the ECM's computer brain, not just the data used by that existing logic.

The SERT, the Super Tuner and the Master Tune all replace the data that is used by the existing software (the *real* programs) in the ECM. Devices like the ThunderMax replace the entire ECM -- hardware, software and data -- with an entirely new and different unit.

The Mastertune program does a whole lot more than allowing you to adjust fuel tables in closed loop. Mastertune has the cabability to do a complete tune of the bike, in closed loop operation AND open loop. The V-tune program, which integrates data that has been collected while you ride your bike (using the Data Master program), then combines the new data to make a new .mt7 file which is then flashed into the ECM using Mastertune.

Agreed. In refernce to the WOT issue, I said Mastertune when I should have said V-Tune.

V-tune only operates in closed loop. V-tune makes it very easy for the do-it-yoursefer to tune his bike, but V-Tune is limited to only closed loop operation. Without reading the help files, if I'm not mistaken, closed loop is throttle position at or less than about 60%. V-tune won't work at WOT (100% throttle position). I'm not sure why.

So, this was the heart of my previous post. Because the software in the stock ECM does not monitor the O2 sensors at WOT, there is no data being collected and/or reported for the MasterTune to collect and for V-Tune to act upon. Essentially Mastertune/V-Tune can't collect data for analysis if that data is not being reported by the ECM.

The ThunderMax w/AutoTune, a full-replacement ECM with it's own software, does monitor the O2 sensors at WOT -- and all other throttle settings and engine speeds. This is allows the TMAT to be tuned -- and to auto-tune -- in places where SERT/SEST/MT cannot because of their dependency on the stock ECM software.

I'm saying it would be nice if the do-it-yourselfer could do a tune complete tune, even at WOT rather than taking it to a dyno tuner. Steve Cole explained how you can do a complete tune in open loop (see my quote above), but it's not worth all the trouble, time, beating your bike, etc., to do it.

I agree that it would be nice to be able to have a do-it-yourself complete tune. I'm just pointing out that this is the nature of the beast with tools like the SERT/SEST/MT.

On the issue of beating your bike and it not being worth all the trouble... that's a subjective decision that each customer has to make for themselves.

Just my $0.02 worth...

[rheiner]

Randall,

I think we're saying the same thing here, just using terminology differently. I'm a software developer. To me, reprogramming the ECM means replacing the actual logic of the ECM's computer brain, not just the data used by that existing logic.

The SERT, the Super Tuner and the Master Tune all replace the data that is used by the existing software (the *real* programs) in the ECM. Devices like the ThunderMax replace the entire ECM -- hardware, software and data -- with an entirely new and different unit.

Agreed. In refernce to the WOT issue, I said Mastertune when I should have said V-Tune.

So, this was the heart of my previous post. Because the software in the stock ECM does not monitor the O2 sensors at WOT, there is no data being collected and/or reported for the MasterTune to collect and for V-Tune to act upon. Essentially Mastertune/V-Tune can't collect data for analysis if that data is not being reported by the ECM.

The ThunderMax w/AutoTune, a full-replacement ECM with it's own software, does monitor the O2 sensors at WOT -- and all other throttle settings and engine speeds. This is allows the TMAT to be tuned -- and to auto-tune -- in places where SERT/SEST/MT cannot because of their dependency on the stock ECM software.

I agree that it would be nice to be able to have a do-it-yourself complete tune. I'm just pointing out that this is the nature of the beast with tools like the SERT/SEST/MT.

On the issue of beating your bike and it not being worth all the trouble... that's a subjective decision that each customer has to make for themselves.

Just my $0.02 worth...

Rick,

Right on...I'm with you 100%.

Randall

[Steve Cole]

I have not read this whole thread but was asked to clear something up. First I need to say that anyone that thinks they can have a full auto tune system is mistaken, it just doesn't work that way. Tuning at WOT has issues that come from the sensor that is trying to be used. If you skip the advertising from manufactures of said devices and go straight to the horses mouth you can understand why. The sensors are made by Bosch and you can find the specification document at the following address.

http://wbo2.com/lsu/Y258K01005e03mar21eng.pdf

Now read the document and you will see where just some of the issues come from and why it's not possible to do what some manufactures are claiming.

"2.  Application conditions
For all temperature measurements refer to
section 3: test methods.
2.1  Temperature range, passive: -40°C ... +100°C
(storage temperature)
2.2  Operating temperatures
Exhaust gas at sensor element: ≤ 930°C
Hexagon of the sensor housing: ≤ 570°C
Cable grommet (PTFE formed hose)
- sensor side: ≤ 250°C
- cable side (upperhose crimp): ≤ 200°C
Cable and protective sleeve: ≤ 250°C
Connector: ≤ 120°C
2.3  Maximum temperatures (max. 250 h accumulated over lifetime)
Exhaust gas at sensor element: ≤ 1030°C
Hexagon of the sensor housing: ≤ 630°C
2.4  Maximum temperatures (max. 40 h accumulated over lifetime)
Cable grommet (PTFE formed hose)
- sensor side: ≤ 280°C
- cable side (upperhose crimp): ≤ 230°C
Cable and protective sleeve: ≤ 280°C
Notes:
If the exhaust gas temperature of 850°C is exceeded, the heater power must
be switched off. In this case the accuracy of the sensor signal is limited.
If the max. gas temperature exceeds 850°C or hexagon temperature exceeds
500°C, the use of a longer thread boss is recommended (see section 9.9).
If the operating temperature is exceeded (within the max. temperature
limits) for more then 10 minutes without break, the sensor function might
be affected during this time.
2.5  Temperature of sensor ceramic element with
condensation water present at exhaust side: ≤ 350°C
Note: sensor is not ready to control at
a sensor temperature of 350°C"

A typical gasoline motor and a HD motor will exceed these temperatures when running under full power(WOT). So as anyone can see the manufacture of the sensor says the accuracy from the sensor is bad. So how can an aftermarket device tune from a sensor that the manufacture says does not work under those conditions? There are also other areas that the HD motor exceeds the specification of the sensor so read up and ask questions if you do not understand. This is a tool like any other tool but it has limits.

[RickC]

I have not read this whole thread but was asked to clear something up. First I need to say that anyone that thinks they can have a full auto tune system is mistaken, it just doesn't work that way. Tuning at WOT has issues that come from the sensor that is trying to be used.... So as anyone can see the manufacture of the sensor says the accuracy from the sensor is bad. So how can an aftermarket device tune from a sensor that the manufacture says does not work under those conditions? There are also other areas that the HD motor exceeds the specification of the sensor so read up and ask questions if you do not understand. This is a tool like any other tool but it has limits.

Steve,

Thanks for the info. I learned something today thanks to you.

Let me say that I am a customer. I have a TTS Mastertune waiting to go on my '09 SERG after I get the break-in miles on her. I bought the MasterTune because, as far as I am concerned, it hits the sweet spot between functionality, cost, reliability, do-it-yourself capability and low warranty impact (probably none!).

And this is after having had a TMAT on my previous bike for 18 months.

I wasn't bashing anyone's product and didn't mean to be creating a comparison between products. I was just trying to clarify why some products work (or claim to work) differently than others. Obviously, I had a little to learn about full closed-loop systems.

Thanks for all of your input here. It has been helpful for many of us who have ben making decisons about tuning devices for our CVO's.

[Steve Cole]

I know that it always seems to turn into a pissing match and I want to avoid that as much as the next guy. The OEM's be it HD, GM , Ford ...... are really pretty smart and believe me if there was a way for them to get auto tune at WOT to work it would have been done long ago. This cheap style sensor has been around for a long time and they are fine but are limited in how long they last and what they can be used for. To use it on a dyno where it can be located away from the vibration and the high heat is about as good as it gets and event then they only seem to last about 60 - 100 hours. My biggest issue is they do not just die on you when they go bad. The readings get further and further away from what is really there until they die. So while you make think it's seeing 13:1 it could be 11:1 or 15:1! It's an old issue that those of us that have used them for long already know about, so you keep a spare on hand at all times. We use a true Wide Band sensor and there is a reason those run $750 per sensor only!

[KozyK]

You guys have got my non tech head spinning. I have installed an run with the V&H Fuel Pack for 2 years and 26,000 miles. It pops and occasionally the idle dies on me after running hard on the freeway and coming to a full stop at the end of an off ramp! Don't believe the FP and the ECM talk fast enough to each other. V&H techs have been helpful. With the heat and cylinder problems I've had with my 110 I have been reluctant to have installed a SERT or a TTS version along with the dyno-tune investment. I'm ready and hope to have a quicker, smoother, more efficient running machine. Is this to much to expect?

[rheiner]

Steve Cole cleared a lot of things up in my mind with his responses in this thread. Steve, thanks for taking the time to respond and teach us about the fine art of tuning.

Randall