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[JimsSEEG]

For those that have been followingthe original Thundermax ECM thread, I got tired of going to the last page to read the updates, so I thought I would start a new thread. Heres the link to the original thread:

http:// http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=eg_gen;action=display;num=1127317280

To give a little backgrounf - I talked with John from Zippers last Thursday as a result of his replies to the thread explaining the capabilities of the new Thundermax ECM as compared to the SERT and PC. Pappy2 had also installed the Thundermax and had some troubles along the way, but has come to a happy ending. DCFireman just carries buckets of water for Zippers (sorry - no pun intended), and the jury is still out for the masses. My bike is a 05 SEEG, with the SE Air filter, VandH True Dual head pipes and Oval Slip on mufflers, and a stage 1 flash. Also have a Sundowner seat on it but hopefully that won't affect anything.

First positive surprise, was the CD that was included indicated that the base map was not for the Rhineharts, but the VandH true duals and Oval slip-ons - an exact match to my combination. Installed the unit as per the instructions, did the calibration process and then started the bike. The bike started with about a turn and a half on the starter, revved up a bit and died. Having been thru this same thing with the PC on my Fatboy, I waited till the security light to went out out and hit the button. Bike started as soon as I hit the button, hardly any spin on the starter, just started right up.

I noticed the idle speed was approx 1100 rpm according to the tach. After listening for a few seconds, I realized the RPM was a constant 1100 rpm, no fluttering as I had with the stock ECM when the bike first started. After about 10 seconds the idle settled down to exactly 1000 rpm and never moved. I noted another item, when the original ECM was in, sitting at idle, you could smell excess fuel. This in itself was always odd to me since the bike was sooo hot when sitting in traffic. I didn't smell the excess fuel when the bike was idleing, I even got close behind the bike and put each hand over the eahaust and still couldn't smell excess fuel. The last thing I noticed, was the bike just sounded different.  Like the difference between listening to a small block and big block chevy without seeing them - you know one of them has a little somthing extra. Probably the difference in iinitial timing.

I let the bike idle for about 5 minutes. I did a few quick, easy blips on the throttle, just to see how it revved and settled back down. Increase in RPM was almost instantaneous, third time I blipped the throttle, noticed the tach was hitting almost 3500 rpm. RPM went down to idle as fast as it went up. When the rpm dropped to idle, it fell fast and stopped at the 1000 rpm mark and stayed there. The stock ECM would drop to about 1200, then ease back down between 950 and 1000 rpm and waiver a little. This wasn't consistent, but would happen often enough to be truly annoying.

Shut the bike off and waited about 2 - 3 minutes, and restarted. It had the same instant start as before.

Didn't get to go for a test ride tonght, was starting to rain. Will get a ride in tomorrow and report back on the road test and throttle response. It should prove to be interesting.

Jim

[DCFIREMANN]

Jim "WATER BOY" here!!!!! I am glad you are happy so far. When you ride the bike you will notice the difference in ride ability and throttle responce along with an increrase in performance. I got to spend a day at Zippers the other day and I am going to do a post on what is happening at Zippers. It was a lot of fun and very informative.

Let us know how the test ride goes.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[grc]

Jim,

Once you get some miles on the ThunderMax, please post your fuel mileage before and after along with your other observations.  I'm starting to lean toward the ThunderMax as well, since I'm totally fed up with trying to make the stock ECM run properly at low speeds and cool temps, and I have no intention of further enriching H-D by handing them $400-$500 for a RT plus $?? for dyno tuning to fix their lousy stock calibration.  From an engineering viewpoint, I also prefer a one-piece solution rather than an add-on which can introduce compatability issues and complicate diagnostics of any future problems.  For instance, the "stealth" technology used by PC and TFI units for the '05 and up models suppresses some of the diagnostic codes.  

Thanks,

Jerry

[JimsSEEG]

OK.. here is the first update.

Weather conditions: 62 to 64 degrees, 41% humidity, baro 30.01 and steady.

Observation 1
Started te bike and just like last night, started up, revved a little then died. Waited on the Security light to go out and hit the button, started instantly. In reading the instructions again, sounds like this may be related to IAC port or plunger or possibly too much fuel at initial startup.

Let the bike warm up and moved out toward the highway, It's 4 miles to the highway from the house down county roads at 30 mph, so total warm up time was about 10 min. Pulled out on the highway and made half throttle accelerations thru the gears up to 70 mph. Clean, crisp acceleration no soft spots or hesitations. Went about 2 miles to the turn off to another highway. Slowed to about 55 mph and then another half throttle roll on back to 70 mph. Went about 5 miles on cruise, uphill then downhill just clean acceleration and deceleration, no surging.

About 10 miles later, decided to turn around. When I auickly slowed down, braking, clutch in and turning left into a parking lot, there was a quick suck of air thru the intake and a light pop or backfire thru one of the mufflers. Nothing like somthing was terribly wrong, more like a hiccup. Bike continued to run fine after that.

Pulled out of the parking lot, and made a full throttle accleration thru 1st to 4th, then into 5th, levelling off at about 75 mph. Acceeration was good and strong, didn't feel like there was any soft spots, just solid acceleration and pull.

Set the cruise again at 70 mph for about another 5 miles and did gentle roll ons wiht the cruise on. Godd even pulling to about 85 mph where I let the cruise resume. I took the cruise off and did several full throttle roll ons. Good clean, quick acceration all the way up to about 95 mph where I backed off. Resumed cruise again till I made the cloverleaf to change highways. On the on-ramp to the second highway, made a 2nd gear full throttle acceleration, again good, hard pulling all the way to about 6000 rpm.

Turned off the highway back onto the county roads again. Got to my turn off and had the same situation as the earlier turn around. I tried several quick stops trying to duplicate the backfire, but couldn't.

The overall impression is good. The bike seems to pull hard from 2000 rom to 6000. Doesn't seem to "nose over" at the upper end of the RPM range.  The butt dyno says things are better than with the stock ECM. Did find an INDY shop about an hours ride that is MMG trained, and they use a lot of Zippers products. If I get lucky (it does happen) maybe they have done a TM or two or are wanting to see and work on one. Either way will be able to get a pass on thier dyno to see how things look. Couple of minor quirks that initially appear to be setting adjustments with the IAC or TPS adjustments.

So got a of questions for DCFireman or Pappy2:

Went back to the package to get the CDROM and cable. Installed the SW and looked at the cable, and I don't remember seeing a round connector (looks like the plug on your KB or mouse) on the ECM and the Datalink connector appears to be a square Deutcsh type. What am I missing?


Jim

[JimsSEEG]

GRC,

Will add those into the updates... So far (4700 miles) gas mileage breaks down like this::

Completely stock bike: Gas mileage ranged from 39 to 46 mpg. Was running very lean.

At 1013 miles added VandH true dual head pipes, Stock Mufflers, SE Air filter. mileage ranged from 39 to 45 MPG, average was 41 - 42 at mostly 75 mph.

At approx 2700 miles added the Oval slip ons, gas mileage did not change.

This first tank is going to be on the low side with all the full throttle pulls. About half of todays test ride wat at half throttle or better, hitting it pretty hard.

Jim

[DCFIREMANN]

Jim got your PM and yes I can take a joke. I'm a fireman remember.

Now your question was about the link cable if you look right in the center of the thunder max as you are looking at when the side cover is pulled you will see where it plugs in. It is hard to see but it is there.

Before you make any changes to your MAP call me and I will walk you through it. When I went down to see the guys last week I got some very good training on the TM for the owner himself and how to make changes and how to tune a bike with it. I personally wouldn't make any changes unless you have a treadmill close by unless it is timing or idle control.

As most of you know I DON'T WORK FOR ZIPPERS I just use thier products and have for years. They have a very good deal going on the thunder max with a 30 day money back guarantee. All I can say is try it you will like it. It is a very solid base to build on no matter how much more you want to do with your bike.John told me that he was asked about a group buy. If enough people are interested I will work the deal and do all of the leg work. I am not sure how many they would need but I would think 10 would be the min. Twolane you seem to be interested so if you  start a thread on group buys we can see if enough people are interested.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[JimsSEEG]

Thanks DAWG,

Thanks for the quick response. It must be under the label - I didn't remove it. Will pull the side cover and label and plug into the ECM to see what things look like in real-time.
It's too early for me to be making changes to the map, still riding and seeing how things work. I did want to get a little data while the bike as running in the shop, just to see how the data looked on the TP sensor and how the software worked.

I was able to get another quick ride in, two 10 mile hops, went to the local joint for a chcken fried steak and a peice of pecan pie. Temp was 70 - 71. I only had the "hiccup" show up one time, and this time is was slowing to a stop where you coast for a few seconds in first, then pull the clutch and stop. Doesn't happen at higher speeds, just at very slow speeds in frst. Tried to get the hiccup to happen again, but couldn't. I'm thinking something really minor on the TP setting on decel. Will do some more looking and riding to get more info.

More I ride with the new ECM,  the more I like it. Bike just flat pulls from 1500 until I quit. I even let the bike slip down to about 1200 rpm (not reccomended, but hey, this is an experiment) for about 4 or 5 seconds and it just chugged like  John Deere. Was able to ease into the throtle and it pulled right up with no complaints.

Another interesting thing is I think the gas mileage is going to be the same or a little better. Based on where the guage is currently, it should take right at 2 1/2 gals to fill up the tank and trip meter reads 86.9 miles. Not very scientific, but an initial swag and that is with at least a dozen 1st and second gear hard pulls and almost that many full throttle roll-ons. WIll get another ride in later or tomorrow am and hit the gas station and get actual numbers.

Thanks for the help DAWG!!!

Jim

[JimsSEEG]

DAWG,

Must be nice to get the scoop directly from the man himself. That may be good and bad... [smiley=laugh.gif]

Another question for you - Was re-reading the docs again about the gauge value limits. If I'm understand correctly, using thier example of the Volt gauge, if the Yellow Caution Stops category is 4 to 7 volts - which is a low voltage condition and 9 to 12 volts is a high voltage condition, if the charging system fell in this low or high range, where would it record the event? I'm wondering if when I get the system hooked to the ECM, if I can look at the gauges and look for an over or under tolerance condition.

Also on the picture it shows the range values and below the boxes is Yellow White and Red notations. Do the notations below show event conditions with live or historical data?

Maybe John will kick a T-shirt and hat your way for doing Support work.... LOL!

Thanks

Jim




Jim

[DCFIREMANN]

Jim when you hook up to the ECM look in the upper left hand corner of your computer. There you will see the icons "LINK and MONITOR" click on each of these and they will change color from red to green. Click link first then monitor. The bike must be powered up but not running if you choose not to start it but you can if you want to. You will see all of the values that are being monitored you can click on the ones you just want to look at and change them to make them much larger and then move them any where you want to on the screen and they will also be in color.

Once I had my first lesson it was pretty easy. When I go back in a week or so I will get the chance to even help make a map and tune a bike. It is really that easy. The only problem I see is it is NEW!!!!!

I had a GREAT EXPERIENCE spending the day with those guys. THEY ARE GREAT and very good at what they do.

Try to link up and watch the monitor screen and play with it for a while you will be very impressed .

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[JimsSEEG]

Thanks DAWG... As soon as I finish this conference call, I'll check it out...

Wouldn't do for me to be close to them, I'd be getting a part-time job sweeping the floor so I could pester the tuners and play with the toys.

Jim

[pappy2]

I have never had any hiccups or quitting after the start up and followed the instructions to the tee on installation.  My troubles were entirely related to the dyno run I got done with the engine cold and the flat spot I was feeling before the bike warmed up.  As far as starting and running as I said in my original post the engine runs like it is supposed to.  Fires up on the first revolution every time and runs like a kitten.  Never backfires or spits and has solid pull all the way from low to high RPM.  It does not have a big HP kick at the higher RPMS but I have stock internals and expect to change that soon enough.  

If they honor the thirty day warranty and give a good deal on the group buy, I would recommend everyone who could use one give it a try as they will probably be as happy as I am.  BTW I am going to follow Zippers lead or copy whatever someone else with at zippers ecm does as the heart is strong and I want to build on it not go to the other tuner solutions if I can avoid it.  Be safe  JP  [smiley=banana.gif]  [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif] [smiley=banana.gif]

[JimsSEEG]

Thanks Pappy,

I think my hiccup is related to Throttle Position sensor the more I check into it.  I also noticed it didn't have the big kick, the build of the torqe was just very smooth. Goes to show how far off the initial tune was. I noticed Saturday I had almot 4700 miles, so may put the original ECM on and take it to the dealer and have them check out the TPS. Might also have them run a pass on the Dyno to  get a look to see what the HD ECM with stage 1 flash looks like and then return later with the Thundermax just to see the difference.

I too plan some "changes" later and discussed with John about those when  we talked last week. definitely have head work and TB changes coming just a question about which cams... Decisions, decisions...

Thanks for the info..

Jim

[DCFIREMANN]

Jim when you are ready for your upgrades call me. I am putting something together right now. Like I said in the past I don't want to be the fastest I am just looking for some good reliable horsepower. I am going to run a set red shift gear driven cams with a few other changes to the motor.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[Twolanerider]

Jim when you are ready for your upgrades call me. I am putting something together right now. Like I said in the past I don't want to be the fastest I am just looking for some good reliable horsepower. I am going to run a set red shift gear driven cams with a few other changes to the motor.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Man I need to follow this thread more closely.  Red Shift?  Really?  Had no idea that Dick Hilferty was still out there.  That's awesome.  He used to do some amazing stuff.  If he's making Twin Cam cams history suggests they should be nice stuff.  

Dawg, are these a direct manufacturer purchase or are they big enough to be working through a jobber or dealer network?

[grc]

TwoLane,

Zippers has been selling these for years now - try this link  http://www.zippersperformance.com/catalogue/showproduct.asp?cat=814&prod=1749

Jerry