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[SBB]

Does anyone have any data to support some of their claims? I'm reading alot of opinions and claims, however absolutely no data has been offered. Show me some flow data suggesting a "worked" 50mm TB is actually going to perform (flow) more air than a 58mm SE TB. The absence of data to support some of these claims makes them quite suspect. Keep in mind that the same 50mm TB that's been worked to 54mm still has to get the flow through a 50mm opening in the backing plate and A/C (unless that's being "worked" as well).

The 58mm TB from HD uses a matching larger back plate to maintain that 58mm opening all the way through to the engine.

Without the performance data, some of these claims start to sound somewhat like commercials and merely a slam of HD (which I understand and do at times myself). I just think before making a claim that a 50mm TB that's been ported/polished is better than a the MoCo's 58mm TB, you should provide some supporting evidence because the math of surface area would suggest otherwise.

Show a dyno for the same engine with both size TBs or share some flow-bench data, otherwise I'll stick with the bigger number and the MoCo over smaller non-oem options (this all assumes a larger TB is the best approach for a particular engine build).

The absence of data to support some of these claims makes them quite suspect

Suspect? Suspect to who? You? Stop reading this thread if you don't like the responses?
So you post on this thread and your response is you complain about the other responses?
Get over it.
Jeff started this thread to help all of us (including you). Don't be so ungrateful.
You want performance claims verified? Why don't you spend the money on TB's and dyno time to give us the info?
Not willing to do that? Then don't be so critical of those that are trying to help.
I went back and re read this thread, many very smart people have contributed to it.
Very few claims were made, many comments as to what to expect or what personal experience has been were written and those seem to be based on personal knowledge and experience.

otherwise I'll stick with the bigger number and the MoCo over smaller non-oem options (this all assumes a larger TB is the best approach for a particular engine build).

In your post you are critical of the information as being suspect.
Then you yourself start assuming?
Where are your facts and data to back up that assumption?

There are very knowledgeable people that have posted good information on this thread.
If you don't like the information you read in this thread, there are plenty of other threads where an "expert" opinion/fact might be more helpful.
If you don't like the message or disagree with it, just don't shoot the messenger.

SBB

[Black Diamond]

Hi guys

Just got back from my HD shop. I have a dyno sheet comparing the HD/HPI 54mm TB (blue line Jeff_179) to the SE 58mm TB (red line Jeff_170). While there are some obvious differences after 4600 rpm, I still say they are pretty damn close.

Heatwave - I'm just a rider. I got no skills as a wrench. I'm only posting what little I have. This may only apply to my build, I'm just trying to share. I understand you wanting to see a dyno sheet! Since Just-Us-Six was riding there today anyway, I tagged along to grab this up. Take it for what it's worth.


Now...I'll be posting in a bit about my adventures coming home. My scooter's gremlin is still alive. My motor stopped running 4 times in the last 45 miles home tonight. Maggie Valley may be on hold, tomorrows problem.

JW

[SBB]

Now...I'll be posting in a bit about my adventures coming home. My scooter's gremlin is still alive. My motor stopped running 4 times in the last 45 miles home tonight. Maggie Valley may be on hold, tomorrows problem.

JW

Damn Jeff, you need to make Maggie Valley!

 

SBB

[Black Diamond]

Damn Jeff, you need to make Maggie Valley!

 

SBB

I hear that! Only if I'm sure she's reliable. The gremlin thinks I'll give up and get a new bike, NEVER!

JW

[Heatwave]

I've clearly stated my opinions are just that - my opinions - and also clearly stated they are somewhat speculative - albeit somewhat educated speculation (again, IMO).  No one should take anything they read here as gospel fact - especially anything I state...  With that....carry on....

Hopefully there's no misunderstanding....I'm all for sharing opinions as even educated opinions can be of value to all. I was just hopeful that after 3 pages of posts on the subject of TBs there might be some or even any data that helped support (or not) some of those opinions. I would have thought those companies selling TB services would have data suggesting the porting/polishing has some positive impact on flow or throttle responsiveness or something other than making a cast TB look shiney.

Surely someone must have some data to support the service they offer on "worked" TBs. Please don't feel offended that the opinions aren't value...they are....but data can only reinforce the value of those opinions if its available.

[Heatwave]

Sorry dude, no dyno charts. But I spent 2 days on the dyno after my build was done, trying exhausts, intakes, and TB's! I used the 58mm HPI to start, as that what was what my build was designed around, flow wise. I assume you must agree that the 58mm HPI out flows the SE 50mm. I tested duals, then FatCats w/different baffles. I tried the S&S single bore intake and the DPP. Everything bigger performed better. Then we thought of trying the unheard of 62mm on a 110"!!! Well lo and behold, the motor loved that setup. Wasn't even rooting for the combo I wound up with. But I wasn't giving up the best performance combo we found either! I wound up keeping the 62mm w/HPI A/C assembly, and the FatCats with the Performance Big Bore muffler in the end. Even though the 62mm sticks out further and you MUST use their A/C assembly with it (it uses the stock cover at least). And I liked my duals, or would have preferred the FatCat Quite muffler. That Performance Big Bore is LOUD too! But you can't argue with the curve, the numbers, and the way the bike feels! In the end, I proved the best combo for my setup, and that the motor wanted the 62mm TB. But I guess you'll have to trust my word on all of this, since I can't prove it to you with the charts! So take it as you must!

Hoist!

No question...I would assume the 58HPI easily outflows the 50SE. And I certainly agree that the 62 will outflow the 58. I think your results suggest that you have a strong hi-flow build as the 62 raised the performance even further. My original question for data was directed at those that were claiming that a 50 SE ported and polished up to a 54mm TB would perform better than an SE58mm TB. That seemed like a strong statement that could benefit from some data to support the claim.

[Black Diamond]

No question...I would assume the 58HPI easily outflows the 50SE. And I certainly agree that the 62 will outflow the 58. I think your results suggest that you have a strong hi-flow build as the 62 raised the performance even further. My original question for data was directed at those that were claiming that a 50 SE ported and polished up to a 54mm TB would perform better than an SE58mm TB. That seemed like a strong statement that could benefit from some data to support the claim.

I have no idea on flow numbers let alone how to get em. This winter I'm taking the info provided by Steve Cole to see if a measurement can be taken. I'm just looking to get the best out of my build with the products available. I'm not knocking the SE 58mm, heck I had it on my bike for almost two years. However, if I can get the same results with the smaller TB and better mpg, that's the direction I'm going. To each there own. You asked for the d sheet so I went and got what I could that compares apples to apples at this point.

Keep the painted part up brother.

JW

[Heatwave]

Suspect? Suspect to who? You? Stop reading this thread if you don't like the responses?
So you post on this thread and your response is you complain about the other responses?
Get over it.
Jeff started this thread to help all of us (including you). Don't be so ungrateful.
You want performance claims verified? Why don't you spend the money on TB's and dyno time to give us the info?
Not willing to do that? Then don't be so critical of those that are trying to help.
I went back and re read this thread, many very smart people have contributed to it.
Very few claims were made, many comments as to what to expect or what personal experience has been were written and those seem to be based on personal knowledge and experience.

In your post you are critical of the information as being suspect.
Then you yourself start assuming?
Where are your facts and data to back up that assumption?

There are very knowledgeable people that have posted good information on this thread.
If you don't like the information you read in this thread, there are plenty of other threads where an "expert" opinion/fact might be more helpful.
If you don't like the message or disagree with it, just don't shoot the messenger.

SBB

So asking for data is somehow "ungrateful"? I don't think so. These threads are all about gathering information. If someone makes a performance claim its certainly reasonable to ask if there's any data to support that claim. If there's a business aspect to the claim (and I'm not suggesting there was) then there's an even higher standard to provide data.

But that's just my opinion, other should feel free to take opinions and claims of performance at full value particularly if they know the source its coming from. No offense was intended however I feel no remorse in asking for supporting data. If it doesn't exist...no problem. If it did exist, it would have been helpful to the discussion. Lighten up, it's better for your health.

[Heatwave]

Hi guys

Just got back from my HD shop. I have a dyno sheet comparing the HD/HPI 54mm TB (blue line Jeff_179) to the SE 58mm TB (red line Jeff_170). While there are some obvious differences after 4600 rpm, I still say they are pretty damn close.

Heatwave - I'm just a rider. I got no skills as a wrench. I'm only posting what little I have. This may only apply to my build, I'm just trying to share. I understand you wanting to see a dyno sheet! Since Just-Us-Six was riding there today anyway, I tagged along to grab this up. Take it for what it's worth.


Now...I'll be posting in a bit about my adventures coming home. My scooter's gremlin is still alive. My motor stopped running 4 times in the last 45 miles home tonight. Maggie Valley may be on hold, tomorrows problem.

JW

Now that's the kind of data that's helpful to the discussion. I agree with your conclusion that in this case the performance was very similar between the 54HDI and the 58SE with a very slight benefit to the 58 at the very top end. I assume there were no other engine changes although you must have used a different back plate and A/C since the one from your original 50MM didn't fit on the 58mm. (Is that correct?)

[Black Diamond]

Now that's the kind of data that's helpful to the discussion. I agree with your conclusion that in this case the performance was very similar between the 54HDI and the 58SE with a very slight benefit to the 58 at the very top end. I assume there were no other engine changes although I you must have used a different back plate and A/C since the one from your original 50MM didn't fit on the 58mm. (Is that correct?)

They used my original SE stage 1 back plate. The wrench fitted it to the 54mm, painted it to match the granite motor and mounted her up. Came out real nice.

My buddy, Just Us Six rode my scoot several times today, which he has done in the past. He remarked she is more responsive down low. I know that very subjective. No other motor changes, just switched the A/C, plate and TB. Same injectors. If I was doing this build from scratch, I'd sent the 50mm to HPI to start with. Wasn't an option when I did my bike almost two years ago.

Things I like best, mpg up and leg/knee position.

JW

[sadunbar]

No question...I would assume the 58HPI easily outflows the 50SE. And I certainly agree that the 62 will outflow the 58. I think your results suggest that you have a strong hi-flow build as the 62 raised the performance even further. My original question for data was directed at those that were claiming that a 50 SE ported and polished up to a 54mm TB would perform better than an SE58mm TB. That seemed like a strong statement that could benefit from some data to support the claim.

I think you have misread or imagined that someone made such a claim.  Reread the posts - I don't think you will find any such claim.  The only statement I made, for instance was:

"I would not be surprised to learn that a 54mm HPI throttle body outflowed a stock HD 58mm throttle body".  

I later explained I felt this way because the HPI manifolds are better designed and flow better than a HD stock manifold...I have seen data to support this, but I do not have the data to share with the forum.  

I did err in my comparison - as the data I saw compared a 55mm HPI throttle body with a 58 mm Stock HD TBW throttle body.

I also know my build  - a 110 motor that I built - which utilizes much the same components as HOISTS build (same Cycle Rama heads, same Cycle Rama cams, 62mm HPI throttle body and HPI air filter, D&D exhaust) was dynoed by John Goldon of Rolling Thunder Dyno and produced 120 hp/122 torque  - and averages over 40 mpg on the highway...  10,000 miles later it has not skipped a beat and is still running strong as ever...  The dyno sheet is here...  http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=16799.msg440323#msg440323

[SBB]

They used my original SE stage 1 back plate. The wrench fitted it to the 54mm, painted it to match the granite motor and mounted her up. Came out real nice.

My buddy, Just Us Six rode my scoot several times today, which he has done in the past. He remarked she is more responsive down low. I know that very subjective. No other motor changes, just switched the A/C, plate and TB. Same injectors. If I was doing this build from scratch, I'd sent the 50mm to HPI to start with. Wasn't an option when I did my bike almost two years ago.

Things I like best, mpg up and leg/knee position.

JW

Jeff

The good thing about your exercise, is we can learn from your successes and your failures.
With a 58 on my 110 I now have the opportunity to have my stock 50 modified to a 54.
Then the gravy part is that if I have the 50 modified to a 54 and installed I can then have the 58 modified to whatever HPI can take it to.
As was discussed earlier I doubt a apples for apples HD TB will flow what the HPI will but until HPI makes one for TBW it's moot point for me.
Good luck with the electrical issue.

SBB

[sadunbar]

Now that's the kind of data that's helpful to the discussion. I agree with your conclusion that in this case the performance was very similar between the 54HDI and the 58SE with a very slight benefit to the 58 at the very top end. I assume there were no other engine changes although you must have used a different back plate and A/C since the one from your original 50MM didn't fit on the 58mm. (Is that correct?)

I think you are misunderstanding the comparison....  The 54mm throttle bodys in Jeff's comparison is a 50mm HD throttle body bored to 54mm by HPI vs. a HD 58mm throttle body - not, as you state, a 54mm HPI throttle body.

HPI does not make a 54mm throttle body - and their 55mm throttle body is a different animal completely.

Just trying to keep the facts straight since you prefer facts to opinions and educated speculation....

[SBB]

I think you have misread or imagined that someone made such a claim.  Reread the posts - I don't think you will find any such claim.  

My point exactly in my earlier post.
Your build sets the bar for what many of us are trying to achieve.
Good power and great dependability from our 110.
You are there, Hoist is very close and shooting the messenger does nothing to help the good message get out.


SBB




Sorry Hoist, you are probably closer than close but with a few more trips at Hoist speed we can call Cybil done!

[Heatwave]

I think you are misunderstanding the comparison....  The 54mm throttle bodys in Jeff's comparison is a 50mm HD throttle body bored to 54mm by HPI vs. a HD 58mm throttle body - not, as you state, a 54mm HPI throttle body.

HPI does not make a 54mm throttle body - and their 55mm throttle body is a different animal completely.

Just trying to keep the facts straight since you prefer facts to opinions and educated speculation....

Didn't mean to set off such a stir. Thanks for clarifying. I did realize that the 54mm "HPI" TB was a modified SE 50mmTB that was enlarged/polished by HPI. I looked into other TB alternatives although no one made a 58mm electronic FBW TB other than HD so that's what I went with. At the time (Mid-Aug) I could find no data suggesting a better FBW TB alternative than the 58SE. And to be frank I still haven't seen any data suggesting there's a better alternative to the SE 58 TBW TB that's available today (although I stand ready to be corrected if such data exists). That's why I was looking for data from those suggesting alternatives to the SE 58.

The performance of your bike is outstanding and I wonder if there's any hope for my 110 achieving your kind of #s, particularly since  I'm sticking with a modified version of the the stock exhaust. I should be finding out later this week as my engine build is scheduled to be completed and dyno tuned by week's end.

2010 SEUC
Hillside 110 headwork (10.5comp)
Woods 408-6 cams
SE roller rockers
SE injectors (5.3 gms/sec)
SE Adj. Pushrods
SE 58mm TB
Ventilator A/C
Pro Super Tuner
Stock exhaust with cat removed and 2.25" Fullsac baffles

I can only hope to be at the same performance level as your build.