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[The Barrels]

For what it's worth I just want to chime in to this discussion regarding sensors which has been a very interesting reading.
My experience are limited since it is based from the automotive industry back in the late 90's. But at that time we considered the narrow bands to be more stable vs the broadband sensors in regards of ratio drift. The other problem with broadband sensors was that they there more sensitive for thermal shock especially from condensated water during warm up phase. When it comes to the drift it could be both excessive heat and chemical deposits from fuel or engine oil that was the problem. My guess is that the reliability of the broadband sensors has improved during the last 10 years and you could see the installation guidelines in Bosch documents are covering these experiences. Regarding exhaust temperature I read the following for LSU 4.2 :

"Permissible maximum exhaust gas temperature at sensor element with heating
switched on. Note: If the exhaust gas temperature of 850º C is exceeded,
the heater power must be switched off. In this case the accuracy of
the sensor signal is limited. < + 980º C
(max 250 h in 10 min intervals)"

This is comparable or better compared with the max temperatures of the narrow band sensors I'm used to! I guess it comes back to the heater control strategy? (Do you know what exhaust temperatures you run?)

The Barrels

[Highwaystar]

I spoke with Criss at Power commander and I suggest any skeptic who wants the real story call their tech line. First of all The LSU 4.2 is the only wide band choice for dyno tuning. This sensor will withstand Turbo applications. The expected life span is at 5 years and yes, they will not last forever. The advantages of PC-V are clear and I am assured directly from Power Commander that the system is a technical advancement that delivers as advertised. I personally learned a lot from my discussion with PC and will continue to support a great product.  

[SteveFLHTK]

Just to play Devil's Advocate a bit....Highwaystar, you do realize, I hope, that you are taking the endorsements and technical info from one vendor over that of another?  Seems to me, they are different means of achieving similar goals.  Steve at TTS is speaking from his experience in developing and marketing a product that was, at one time, highly endorsed by Harley.  My guess is they found a cheaper vendor and dropped TTS for the SERT.  TTS then unlocked some of the features Harley didn't want, and marketed the product themselves.

Each different method of fuel control has it's own strengths and weaknesses.  Personally, I've used the PCIII, PCIII usb, SEST and now the TTS Mastertune.  Each had it's advantages and disadvantages, although I can say the only real advantage to the SEST was the fact that it was the tuner of choice for most Harley service centers.  The TTS will allow you to do things that the PC V will not.  I'd be interested in knowing any features the PC V has that the TTS doesn't.  When it first came out, the PC V was only capable of tuning in open loop mode.  Stock O2 sensors were left in line, and took over in normal cruising.  Now, from what I have read here, the PC V has an option of adding wideband or broadband O2 sensors to allow tuning in closed loop.  That's basically what the Thundermax has been trying to do, although they are not available for the '08 and above, and from their continuous promises, I have to wonder if it ever will.  If it's available now with the PC V, then that unit certainly becomes more attractive than previously.

This thread has become similar to an oil thread....just less options available.  Certainly no reason to take anything personal.

[HOGMIKE]

I spoke with Criss at Power commander and I suggest any skeptic who wants the real story call their tech line. First of all The LSU 4.2 is the only wide band choice for dyno tuning. This sensor will withstand Turbo applications. The expected life span is at 5 years and yes, they will not last forever. The advantages of PC-V are clear and I am assured directly from Power Commander that the system is a technical advancement that delivers as advertised. I personally learned a lot from my discussion with PC and will continue to support a great product.  

I spoke with Bob at A/C and I suggest any skeptic who wants the real story call their tech line. First of all The 44 is the only spark plug of choice for dyno tuning. This plug will withstand Turbo applications. The expected life span is at 5 years and yes, they will not last forever. The advantages of A/C are clear and I am assured directly from A/C that the system is a technical advancement that delivers as advertised. I personally learned a lot from my discussion with A/C and will continue to support a great product.
   

Like with oil discussions........here we go again!
The more I read about a product that is "guaranteed" to perform the best, the more I look at other products!  

What is the best flavor of Kool-Aid? And, do you have documentation to back that up?

Poll

[HOGMIKE]

Ooops............
forgot one thing.........

IMO
 

[naitram]

guys this thread is confusing enough on-topic, lets not make it a kool-aid thread

[HOGMIKE]

guys this thread is confusing enough on-topic, lets not make it a kool-aid thread

Right you are!
 

[Highwaystar]

This is getting to political! Looks like you go with new tech or stay safe and keep it simple. Simplicity has it's place... carburetors are the bread and butter of braket drag racing too. Go to Power Commander for answers as I did. http://www.powercommander.com/eng_default.aspx 

[Steve Cole]

I spoke with Criss at Power commander and I suggest any skeptic who wants the real story call their tech line. First of all The LSU 4.2 is the only wide band choice for dyno tuning. This sensor will withstand Turbo applications. The expected life span is at 5 years and yes, they will not last forever. The advantages of PC-V are clear and I am assured directly from Power Commander that the system is a technical advancement that delivers as advertised. I personally learned a lot from my discussion with PC and will continue to support a great product.  

Here is a link to a real Wide Band AFR meter. It uses a true wide band sensor but this is the lower cost type and they go up from here.

http://ecmmotorsports.com/product.asp?djet1

This is the oldest and largest manufacture of real wide band AFR systems, download the DJET Kit Brochure and take a read!

Here is a link to the Higher dollars stuff.

http://ecmmotorsports.com/product.asp?5220

Take a read of the noted problems and the corrections needed to solve for them.

[harleyguynv]

Just to play Devil's Advocate a bit....Highwaystar, you do realize, I hope, that you are taking the endorsements and technical info from one vendor over that of another?  Seems to me, they are different means of achieving similar goals.  Steve at TTS is speaking from his experience in developing and marketing a product that was, at one time, highly endorsed by Harley.  My guess is they found a cheaper vendor and dropped TTS for the SERT.  TTS then unlocked some of the features Harley didn't want, and marketed the product themselves.

Each different method of fuel control has it's own strengths and weaknesses.  Personally, I've used the PCIII, PCIII usb, SEST and now the TTS Mastertune.  Each had it's advantages and disadvantages, although I can say the only real advantage to the SEST was the fact that it was the tuner of choice for most Harley service centers.  The TTS will allow you to do things that the PC V will not.  I'd be interested in knowing any features the PC V has that the TTS doesn't.  When it first came out, the PC V was only capable of tuning in open loop mode.  Stock O2 sensors were left in line, and took over in normal cruising.  Now, from what I have read here, the PC V has an option of adding wideband or broadband O2 sensors to allow tuning in closed loop.  That's basically what the Thundermax has been trying to do, although they are not available for the '08 and above, and from their continuous promises, I have to wonder if it ever will.  If it's available now with the PC V, then that unit certainly becomes more attractive than previously.

This thread has become similar to an oil thread....just less options available.  Certainly no reason to take anything personal.

I received an email from Zippers stating they now have the TBW Thundermax's and will be selling and installing them at Daytona Bike week Feb 26th - Mar. 7th.

[Twolanerider]

Ah, screw 'em all.
Convert to carbs.
 
 

[CVOStreetglide]

I received an email from Zippers stating they now have the TBW Thundermax's and will be selling and installing them at Daytona Bike week Feb 26th - Mar. 7th.

Yea I knew that but wanted to wait until they officially announced the product.

IF you are in the area of Destinaton Daytona during Bike Week stop by the Zippers booth. The guy who is their expert will be there and is a great person. I am sure he will talk with anyone about the new product and hopefully solve any current issues.

[SteveFLHTK]

I received an email from Zippers stating they now have the TBW Thundermax's and will be selling and installing them at Daytona Bike week Feb 26th - Mar. 7th.

Wow, they've been saying 2 weeks for 2 years now.....now they're saying 4 days???  Following the previous logic, it'll probably be available about July  ;-)

[SteveFLHTK]

Nope, I'm not a big Daytona fan.  More likely to be at Sturgis if vacation and funding allows.

Honestly, I hope they get it released.  At one time, I thought the Thundermax was the best system on the road.  I wanted to put one on my '99 and didn't because of the conversion cost from the MM EFI.  When I got my '08, I again wanted to go with them, but no release to date.  Now I have a 2010, and I am quite pleased with the Mastertune, so unlikely I will switch.  I am sure there are quite a few people like me that would have if they could have, but they couldn't so they didn't and now won't  ;-)

Now lets just say that last bit 10 times fast.

[CVOStreetglide]

Nope, I'm not a big Daytona fan.  More likely to be at Sturgis if vacation and funding allows.

Honestly, I hope they get it released.  At one time, I thought the Thundermax was the best system on the road.  I wanted to put one on my '99 and didn't because of the conversion cost from the MM EFI.  When I got my '08, I again wanted to go with them, but no release to date.  Now I have a 2010, and I am quite pleased with the Mastertune, so unlikely I will switch.  I am sure there are quite a few people like me that would have if they could have, but they couldn't so they didn't and now won't  ;-)

Now lets just say that last bit 10 times fast.

I think the Mastertune is the best way to go for most of us.. It's definitely less expensive. 

The guys at Zippers will be busy all week if they do bring the new product.