Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Highwaystar]

I am mostly involved with early Prototype and "one off" show Ferrari's (1948-present). but our company has a world exposure, including a division of Race support engine building (V12) and dyno tuning

[Steve Cole]

Highwaystar

First you need to quit calling a Broadband sensor a Wide band sensor as they are two completely different sensors. The aftermarket motorcycle units all use a Broadband sensor NOT a Wide band sensor! Second you need to read what I type several times and that is that NO car manufacture uses Broadband sensors for fuel control. Now why would they not use broadband sensors for Fuel Control might be a good question. I can only assume that they feel they will not do the job properly and last in the environment they would be subjected too. There must be a pretty good reason that all the automobile manufactures continue to use switching sensors for fuel control. Remember that the EPA requires that the sensors must last for 100,000 miles and is an emissions warranty item, so if they were to fail they would need to replace them at no charge to a consumer. All broadband sensors are placed downstream so maybe it is a heat problem but then I am just taking an educated guess as to why.

What I can tell you is these have been around since back in the late 90's, and they were the hottest part back then for fuel testing because they were though to be able to replace the high dollar Wide Band Sensors. After a few years the bottom of the price of these type units dropped from the $1500 range down to $250 - 300 range because everyone had figure out they just would not hold up and were not accurate. Are they better than nothing, you bet, but they will not hold up and we all had to learn that the hard way. Now it's advertised as the hot ticket in the motorcycle world, only problem is there is still plenty of us that know better. If you think that they work that's fine but I know that the way it's currently done by the aftermarket they do not.

If you have a unit that uses these and you ride about 2000 miles a year as most bike riders do they may last awhile but if you notice your mileage in the 30 range somethings wrong. If you have a stock HD sensors you have the switching type which should last a good long time, the problem is only from the application of a broadband sensor by the aftermarket units.

[Twolanerider]

VW1.8T and 2.8L VR6 Golf, Jetta and Turbo Beetle, VW part # 021-906-262-B, (AWW & AFP motors only) Bosch US part # 17014

0 258 006 065

Strictly to point out the coincident application; that 17014 sensor is the piece Zippers puts with the Thundermax package (or at least used to).

[Highwaystar]

Steve, You do get to the point and are very clear. Is there documented failure evidence you can provide. I think the heated Bosch WB sensor is called either "Broadband" or "wideband" ...same animal two different descriptive names.  Broadband may be an  incorrect description.            

[lonewolf55]

Strictly to point out the coincident application; that 17014 sensor is the piece Zippers puts with the Thundermax package (or at least used to).

Yep. And the ones I replace after approximately 6 hrs. on my dynojet 250i are from a Cadillac Cetera. Only difference is in the Cadillac they are a long way from the exhaust valve. Now that most of the ve tables are calculated with the nb sensors using vtune that 6 hrs. does more bikes.

[Steve Cole]

You are completely incorrect. There are two types of sensors and your going to do nothing other than continue to create confusion by calling them something they are not. Again the aftermarket are the only ones having trouble not the OEM applications. That's why Bosch added comments on these in the documentation to start with. We are a Bosch Motorsport distributor so I know why it was added!

Why do you think the aftermarket companys try to call them Wide Band? You think it is because they might be trying to mislead people into thinking they might really be getting a wide band sensing system. A wide band sensor system will measure AFR's from 4:1 to 25.5:1. A broad band system only measures 11.7 to 25.5:1. Two completely different sensors. One has a cost of about 50 bucks and the other about 800 bucks!

[Highwaystar]

Thanks Steve for the info. I get the impression from you that there are literally ten's of thousands of PC-V systems on the market that are about to fail or will soon fail due to Power Commanders "poor application" and a quality issue with Bosch. Sounds like a Huge recall to me. It's gona make Toyota's problems look small.

[Twolanerider]

Ok, without regard to the back and forth over definitions and applications how about one of you put this in the context that actually matters here.  Granted, the kits to add to the bikes are not OE uses for these systems.  Thundermax, Daytona or whomever.  It's all aftermarket so far as the sensors are concerned.  So how they might or might not last in a manufacturer determined location on a Volkswagen or a Cadillac is irrelevant for this audience's context.

That being so put it in a context that matters to the great unwashed here.  Say, for example, the popular D&D Fatcats or the V&H Duals (either example or both); if one installed a Thundermax kit or a Daytona kit with their ECMs and sensor packages what should be the reasonable expectation?

No corollaries nor comparisons to other manufacturers.  No juxtaposition against what they ought to do or what the sensors are versus how they're described. 

Straightforward questions that apply to this audience:

If someone buys one of the popular kits with the sensors it uses with installation in the more common pipes what should they expect for sensor life?

What should be expected for accuracy of the sensors in these installation?

If there is failure what driveability attributes should be watched for to realize something is going on?

[Diamondback]

 

I went to the Bosch Web Page and looked for anything referring to Broadband,  this is what I found.

Bosch Wideband Air/Fuel ratio sensors utilize a more sophisticated sensing element that enables them to produce a precise output in proportion to the air/fuel ratio. As a result, a wideband A/F sensor measures exhaust gas oxygen accurately from as rich as 9.0:1 to as lean as free air. The use of the Wideband A/F sensors is growing rapidly as original equipment in vehicles and in high-performance specialty markets.Some where, I remember Steve Cole stating the WB was from 5.5 to 25 (or close).

A link to a recent Bosch executive:

http://www.aftermarketnews.com/Item/67412/executive_interview_with_warren_suter_director_engine_management_systems_robert_bosch_llc.aspx

And a direct quote from the same article:
For the independent aftermarket, Bosch has adopted the name “Wideband A/F Sensor” to refer to oxygen sensors that provide a variable output depending on the oxygen content in the exhaust gas. These sensors are also referred to as “Air-Fuel Ratio Sensors” or “Broadband Sensors.

Just thought that if then original founder of O2 sensors calls them Wideband then maybe they are Wideband.

Bosch also tallks about NB and the issues with them etc.

TMI.

 
 

[Highwaystar]

Excellent points from twolane and diamond. The question is very clear from twolane... Steve; you saying consumers are being taken to the cleaners with bogus systems that are prone to immediate failure. The engineers of TTS must be third graders because they just can't seem to design a working system to date. Their Dynos are crap for sure, useful only as a kind of gage. I will continue to test my PC-V. To date my 09 SERG makes over 150 HP and 135TQ and runs perfect from start up to 6200 rpm. My dyno session showed a significant power advantage with PC-V and I personally think the system is amazing. I know of other applications in the automotive world with excellent results and really think Bosch has the "aftermarket" foremost in mind with their marketing. Factory only applications would make no sense. I have yet to see any failure statistics or documentation describing any "engineering" problems with PC-V ,wideband sensors or others wide band tuners. I think that  Steve Cole has taken a very strong stand against PC-V, but I am still relying on what I have seen on the dyno many times now and the fact that I have running evidence that proves the opposite. If My PC-V fails I will be the first to say so. This really brings a question of integrity to tuners like Fuel Moto who are selling a systems that have no usefulness. let's call a spade a spade        

[HOGMIKE]

Interesting discussion, but..............
There are many aftermarket systems for the newer bikes discussed many times on this forum.
There are pros and cons to ALL of them. There are pros and cons to the Harley OEM system, in fact, there are pros and cons to ALL OEM systems from ALL manufactures of ALL cars/motorcycles. Why do  you think there is such a huge market for add-on's or mods?? Even Ferrari products are modified by some people!
SEMA has a show every year that is huge! There are many people that just HAVE to modify things!

Getting back to Harley CVO (this forum), the members here have the most expensive Harley on the floor, and STILL can't leave it alone! I personally think it has something to do with all the snow back East, but, that's just me! 

None of my bikes make 150HP, and I don't want that. I want a smooth running touring bike(s) and make my changes to suit my riding style.
I used Mastertune on the '09 and the '10 bikes, works fine for me except it is more complicated than I think it should be!
I'm going to check on some of our other members using other tuning devices, just to hear THEIR feedback. My buddy has the V&H power pack on his '08, and loves it.....
Different strokes for different folks, right?

You guys responding to this thread need to quit sugar-coating your feelings, and let it out! 

Of course, this is JMHO!! LOL

[Highwaystar]

Good response Hogmike, This is more than a "a product" pro/con or who needs what to please their needs. This is Steve Coke (owner of TTS) saying that No one has a working wide band system and namely PC-V has reliability problems relating to Bosch wide band sensor misapplication. To be more specific Fuel Moto sells and tunes with PC-V and must be unaware it is selling defective unusable poorly engineered tuning devices. My personal view is the opposite, but surly Steve Cole is qualified to make his point. I an open to any ones opinion but have not found anything but positive power gains and reliability with PC-V.      

[harleyguynv]

It not the dyno that counts. It's the person running it and using it as a tool. If your going to race dyno's then that becomes another whole bag of worms. When used as a tool like it should be then all is fine but when used for racing from one dyno to another it's a waste of time. Does it matter where you start on a dyno and it says you made 50 hp or 100 hp? When tuning it doesn't matter as all it is, is a starting point for you to work from. You make a change and determine if it was an improvement or not. If you were to take a Dynojet, Mustang and a Superflow and put them all in the same shop then run one bike on all three dyno's you will get different numbers. So which one is right and which one is wrong? If you talk to the manufactures they will each tell you there's is correct and the others are wrong. If you talk with a shop owner his is the only right one. For me it doesn't matter as it's just a tool and we use them as a tool. For the record I've seen the same bike on two dyno's in the same shop show over a 15 hp difference.

Again, this is confusing to me. I thought we were talking about the accuracy of the sensors and the dynos. I guess what we are really talking about is if you get improvements than all is well, regardless if the afr's are really what the dynos says they are. I do understand that you will get different numbers on a dyno depending on many factors. This is one reason I went with an autotuner. I have to say my bike has never ran as well as it does now under many different conditions, and my dyno numbers are among the highest I have seen. I know the numbers are subjective but that is what we look at knowing so.  As far as sensor longevity I guess we will see how it goes. I have a friend with a PCV Autotuner and has put over 25,000 miles on it so far with no problems at all. Like I said in my first post I am in the minority (at least on this site) but could not be happier

[Highwaystar]

harleyguynv, you are reporting some one with 25K and an earlier post mentioned 10K with no sensor problems. Fuel Moto's e-bay, rating (I personally checked) is 100% with the PC-V sales last year. Not a single reported failure or negative feed back. This is my own personal look into the other side of this issue. I did speak with Jamie on the 20th of Feb with no reports of any sensor problems. He had just finished a 110 SEEG that was equiped with PC-V and the owner was very pleased with the results.       

[Twolanerider]

harleyguynv, you are reporting some one with 25K and an earlier post mentioned 10K with no sensor problems. Fuel Moto's e-bay, rating (I personally checked) is 100% with the PC-V sales last year. Not a single reported failure or negative feed back. This is my own personal look into the other side of this issue. I did speak with Jamie on the 20th of Feb with no reports of any sensor problems. He had just finished a 110 SEEG that was equiped with PC-V and the owner was very pleased with the results.       

Not to cast large dispute.  But pointing out an eBay rating in support of in use service reliability is specious.  Those "ratings" have to be offered within (I think) 45 days.  We all know that some units aren't even going to get installed that quickly.  And even if they did it's not enough time to complain about something other than a DOA part (which is a separate issue from the points discussed here).

Speaking to O2 sensor failure even other than the rare DOA part, however, most of us would admit we're riders not techs.  And the sensors can incrementally fail such that we might not always have a clue.  All that would happen over time.  Time that is never going to be reflected in anything so near term or knee jerk as an eBay seller's rating.

Again, the yea or nay on the effectiveness and advisability of the use of these add-on and aftermarket systems is (or at least could be) interesting, infomative and valuable for many of this audience.  Many of us are under-informed junkies who too readily and too easily buy crap accessories to play with on enhance our bikes.  But the discussion only does us any good when its cogent, on point and contextual to our uses.