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[Steve Cole]

My point of view is simple. If you are going to make claims that something is better you had better have the facts to back it up. The aftermarket claims to be using a Wide Band Sensor when the supplier/manufacture of the sensor calls it a BROADBAND sensor should say something to start with! Then you should at least follow what the manufacture of the sensor tells you that you have to do to make it work properly.

Now if and when one of the aftermarket suppliers steps up and does that then we can talk about it more but so far none that I am aware of have done so. So autotune with a broadband sensor that is not used per the manufactures specifications is not something that I would want to do.

[Highwaystar]

I appreciate your honesty and strait forward answer. I did not realize who was on the receiving end of my personal comments earlier. If it is true that Power Commander is bogus, I am curious why it is showing power improvements on the dyno. This is not an argument but a question pertaining to PC-V having any benefits? Was It wishful thinking on my behalf or was I breathing to many fumes during the spinning of the drum?   

[Steve Cole]

Look a good tuner can make all kinds of things work out. It's not the product that makes the tune per say. Jamie has been tuning for sometime and has his way of doing things and it seems to work for him, it's just not the only way nor necessarily the correct way. PC's have been around for sometime and people have done well with them, mainly because that's all they had but times have changed. The newer bikes just have somethings that you are not going to be able to solve with a PC or any add-on to a factory ECM. So if you buy a tool that allows you to fix it why go and add a PC on top of it?

Bosch is very clear in there documents of how to do it so it's not rocket science but why people just cannot follow the directions I will never know. My guess is it's a cost thing since all the others are doing it the same way. I just see no need for something like that. There was an article where they tested these AFR meters awhile back and they were all over the road as far as the results. I will see if I can find the link to the article again.

Do not get me wrong as I would love to have an accurate way that had a cheap cost so that we could use it but currently its just not out there. Our in house test equipment with real Wide Band sensors cost about $5,000 for 2 channels. The sensors runs about $800 each now days down from the old cost of $1000 each. They need to be calibrated each and every time they are used and last about 100 hours of use before it's time to replace them. This is one case where you get what you pay for.

[Steve Cole]

Here is an excellent source of information on how and why wide band works.  http://www.megamanual.com/PWC/LSU4.htm   

Note how they keep calling the BroadBand sensor a wide band in this article, why I have no idea but if you look through it you will find the following comment repeated

"All we are outlining here is that with known input fuel"

Problem is today across the US there are about 23 known different fuel blends being sold and used. Which one are you going to solve for to make this work? Then one needs to hope the computer doing all the necessary calculations can get it done and correct quickly enough for fuel control. Most of them at best can do it for steady state operation at low RPM but get up to 4000 RPM and higher and it's no go so what you have to do is save the information you get and average it, then hope.

The truth to all this is simple, the technology today just isn't ready for a direct reading accurate feedback system that will cover the complete RPM range of a modern gasoline motor.

[Highwaystar]

Thanx Steve, Jamie did use TTS for the tune on my bike and PC-V for the boost. I know for a fact that he has over 2000 bikes tuned with TTS and PC-V. and likes your product.  I want it to be clear that I a'm asking questions for my own education and am not connected to Fuel Moto. I cannot speak for Jamie but do think his methods are effective and he is on the cutting edge. Thanks again for the clarity on the subject.    

[dooinit2u]

This is about the best thread for exhaust I've seen on this site. It all boils down to your personel preference in headpipes, mufflers and tuner capabilities. After my extensive research, I've "bitten the bullet" and ordered a Jackpot 2-1-2 head pipe (sold on Stainless construction & X pipe) and Klockwerks SS 4" mufflers. ( I would've put Fullsacs baffles, but don't like the look of the SE Mufflers w/ shields.) I "built" a AC from the parts catalog w/ a Black round baseplate, orings & a Zippers tall filter element and a "finned" black louvered cover. Should flow more air than a stock Ventilator from HD as per my mechanic.

I also went with the new SERT. If I P/U what we think it will, it will be worth the money and investment because I've been riding my ride for 6 mos. stock and anything would be an improvement.

Cudo's to the CVO site for all the impressive info from opinions on loud - quiet pipes, fit, form & function of all options used on these machines. I think I made a decision based on all the info gathered first from this site with extra research from there.

I will post my #'s when job is done. Thanks to the CVO site for all the good information. See Ya Soon

[SBB]

Thanx Steve, Jamie did use TTS for the tune on my bike and PC-V for the boost. I know for a fact that he has over 2000 bikes tuned with TTS and PC-V. and likes your product.  I want it to be clear that I a'm asking questions for my own education and am not connected to Fuel Moto. I cannot speak for Jamie but do think his methods are effective and he is on the cutting edge. Thanks again for the clarity on the subject.    

Highwaystar

The issues before you deleted your many post was that it appeared you were speaking for Fuel Moto and your info was not accurate.
As you spend time on CVOHarley and read the info available you will learn who really knows what.
Members like hd-dude, sadunbar, djkak, Steve Cole and many others post information to help us with our bikes not to promote an agenda.
And for that I'm very thankful and appreciative of their efforts.

SBB
 

[Highwaystar]

BBS, I deleted the posted info to distance my personal opinions from a company that did not deserve the grief from ugly rebuttals. Namely Fuel Moto. Every thing I posted was my personal opinion. I did not intend to offend any reader including you. On the contrary, I respect every ones opinion and find the information very interesting. It's hard to post an opinion on a product or company you feel strongly about with out appearing biased. I would have to say there is a strong direct connection to TTS and also Fulsac (sponsors) on this subject... Thats great but it has been very hard to post an apposing opinion with out it getting ugly. Steve has stated strongly that "no working wide band self tuning system out there works to date". I hear from my automotive tuners and bike tuners that this is not true.  I,m at odds because there seems to be a very hard line drawn in the sand. I was told that Bosch will be publishing new information to back up Dynojets claims that there system is a viable working wide band system this spring. I do not want to speak for Fuel Moto but he assured me PC-V is real and works. Jamie is willing to talk with any one who calls with questions. Please don't take this post as disrespectful to you or Steve. You both bring up important technical information.     

[Highwaystar]

BBS, You are a spokesman for both TTS and Fulsac. So its clear that there is an opposing agenda. I personally own products from both companies and also endorse both. I have spoken to Steve Fulsac several times and he is a rock solid good guy.  Steve Cole is very Knowledgeable and has a very popular product. All of my posted info was honest and factual from my personal point of view. Official documentation that represents Fuel Moto's company perspective is easily viewed at the their website.  Thanks for all the info.  

[Diamondback]

 

One thing for sure here is that Dynojet and Fuel Moto do not have a representative regarding these issues.  I to like Steve and Fullsac products and have recommended them to my friends.  That said, I have the PC V with auto tune and have ridden 10,000 miles without a wimper.  I had mine Dyno'd with only the map Fueld Moto sent and the bike dyno'd at 3300 miles just under 100 hp and 111 ft=lbs of torque.  Don't have the map or I would post it.  Having spent several hundred dollars on my old CVO with the SERT with little success (excessive heat and pinging) I went with the closest thing to the car systems which is closed loop and wide band (broadband whatever).  My buddy installed the PC V with autotune and immediately got more power, driveability, throttle response, reduced heat and better gas mileage than the stock.

On the other hand I have ridden opne of Steve's personal tunes on the 96 and it was a much better tune than the factory.  I think it would be interesting to obtain the view from Dynojet's perspective.  They have been doing this for a long time.

And it is clear (Crystal Clear) that Steve at Fullsac has everything to gain (and rightfully so) by expressing his views so more of us will buy his solution.  It appears to be working.

 

[SBB]

BBS,
Please don't take this post as disrespectful to you or Steve. You both bring up important technical information.      

IMHO your post above sums up what your position is.
You say one thing and do something else.
So ultimately I wish you good luck with your endeavors and and refer back to a point I made in my previous post.

As you spend time on CVOHarley and read the info available you will learn who really knows what.

That thought sure rings true in this case.

SBB

[harleyguynv]

You are saying it was spot on, but the question is, spot on to what? Dynojet uses the same sensors and has the same issues from the sensors in both the dyno and PC-V. Look this is not about mine's bigger than yours. If your going to claim that things are right/wrong, spot on or off you need to test with equipment that will measure properly. So if the dyno sensor agrees with the PC-V sensor that's great but it in no way means it's spot on or event accurate. All that matter is you are happy with your purchases and it does what you want.

The respose to my statement is a little concerning to me. I never stated my tuner is better/bigger than anyone elses. If DynoJet's equipment is not accurate does this mean all of the bikes that are tuned with a DynoJet dyno regardless of which brand of tuner is used are all wrong? Most of the Dyno machines I have seen at Harley dealers and Independents are DynoJet units. I mean no disrespect but I find this hard to believe. I am not quite sure what to make of this?

[HOGMIKE]

The respose to my statement is a little concerning to me. I was not stating my tuner is better than anyone elses. If DynoJet's equipment is not accurate does this mean all of the bikes that are tuned with a DynoJet dyno regardless of which brand of tuner is used are all wrong? Most of the Dyno's I have seen at Harley dealers and Independents are DynoJet units. I am not quite sure what to make of this?

OR....you could always find a SuperFlow dyno, have your bike run on that unit, and, I bet you get different numbers!
Does that make a tune on a Dynojet better or worse?
All this gets way too complicated for me!
IMO, the "seat of the pants" feeling on the road sells me, every time!

As always, JMHO
 

[Steve Cole]

The only problem I have in all this is from a pure technical standpoint. If your going to make claims that this or that is correct,better, spot-on ect.  then you had better use the components that allow it to be that way and use them in the way they were designed to be used. This issue with the broadband sensor is well know to anyone that is in the racing industry and uses them. When they first came out everyone started to use them (including us) and shortly after everyone figure out that they would not last a 4 hour endurance race without failures. So they used them for trials and pulled them out for the race. In racing were looking for every advantage we can get and this is just one that was well over hyped by those using them in there product. As time went on we had to try and learn more about them because the idea of being able to replace our high dollar stuff with a system for 1/10th the cost just had to be looked into. As I said there have been articles written that show the units on the market all over the road map when it comes to accurate measurements and durability. Just because someone has done a great job at marketing something doesn't mean its any good and until someone steps up and points out an issue no one ever knows.

So now it all comes down to who likes what. Going to a tuner and not being happy is who's fault, the product used or the tuner?

[harleyguynv]

Steve, I guess what your saying is DynoJet Dynos are not accurate. So what kind of Dyno should I look for to get my bike tuned on so I know it is accurate?  (providing the person running it knows what they are doing)  I notice that many of the tuners on this site use DynoJet Dynos?