Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[guppytrash]

I once thought something was wrong with my ECM, but it was just a bad connection to my PC V.  Good thing my TTS was able to remap my SERT so I could get my EFI system all back together so my HD would be compatible with my DELL.
Does this pocket protector match my helmet?  WTF.
 

[Steve Cole]

It not the dyno that counts. It's the person running it and using it as a tool. If your going to race dyno's then that becomes another whole bag of worms. When used as a tool like it should be then all is fine but when used for racing from one dyno to another it's a waste of time. Does it matter where you start on a dyno and it says you made 50 hp or 100 hp? When tuning it doesn't matter as all it is, is a starting point for you to work from. You make a change and determine if it was an improvement or not. If you were to take a Dynojet, Mustang and a Superflow and put them all in the same shop then run one bike on all three dyno's you will get different numbers. So which one is right and which one is wrong? If you talk to the manufactures they will each tell you there's is correct and the others are wrong. If you talk with a shop owner his is the only right one. For me it doesn't matter as it's just a tool and we use them as a tool. For the record I've seen the same bike on two dyno's in the same shop show over a 15 hp difference.

[49445CVO]

I once thought something was wrong with my ECM, but it was just a bad connection to my PC V.  Good thing my TTS was able to remap my SERT so I could get my EFI system all back together so my HD would be compatible with my DELL.
Does this pocket protector match my helmet?  WTF.
 

Ah.....How many fuel management systems are you running? Pocket protector, helmet.....You are a safety first kind of guy. LOL

Topper

[Highwaystar]

 The lifetime of a Heated wide band sensor is typically 100,000 miles (160,000 km). Normal deposits are burned off during operation and failure occurs due to catalyst depletion over time, similar to the reason a battery stops producing current. Depending on the lead content of the fuel used, the expected service life time is:

for 0.6 g Pb/l: 20,000 km
for 0.4 g Pb/l: 30,000 km
for 0.15 g Pb/l: 60,000 km
for 0.00 g Pb/l: 160,000 km (ie. unleaded)            Steve do you have any failure documentation to disprove these well Known published facts?

[Highwaystar]

Here is a list of current automotive vehicles using Bosch Wideband (Broadband) sensors. I am not aware of any failure recalls on these vehicles. What gives?  Bosch Part Number

Vehicle Part number extra info

0 258 007 033

Volvo 2000 C70, 2.3 L & 2.4 L turbo. Bosch USA #17033

0 258 007 036

Volvo 1999 S80 T6 (Front) Bosch USA #17036, (Info from Alex Neckas).

0 258 007 044

Porsche Carrera 911 GT3 part # 996-606-168-01

0 258 006 047

Volvo 1999 S70 2.4T. Volvo part 91 25 547 (possibly the same as Volvo part 94 54 597 used on first generation S80 2.4T and T5).

0 258 007 051,
0 258 007 052

VW 2006 1.2 Polo (maybe wasn't the original fitment). , VW - 030 906 262 G.

0 258 007 053,
0 258 007 054

VW 2000 Beetle 1.8 turbo. , Bosch USA #17053.

0 258 007 057,
0 258 007 058

VW1.8T and 2.8L VR6 Golf, Jetta and Turbo Beetle, VW part # 021-906-262-B, (AWW & AFP motors only) Bosch US part # 17014

0 258 006 065

GM Cadillac Catera. GM part number 919-8809. Saturn part number 24450850. Same part as the 0 258 006 066 below, but different cable length

0 258 006 066

Bosch LSU 4 sensor - sold by Tech Edge - AU$150

0 258 007 085,
0 258 007 086

VW 2.0 L

0 258 007 090

Audi 2001 - 2003 A4 1.8T (Front) and VW 2001 Passat 1.8T (Front) (Info from Alex Neckas).

0 258 007 191
0 258 007 192

Audi 2003 A8 4.2L (Info from Zbigniew Rebis 11 Nov '08).

0 258 007 200

GM used on some Holden Commodore models (VX, VY, etc.). LSU 4.2 sensor sold by Tech Edge. Upgraded 7 057 sensor.

0 281 004 028

BMW part number 13 62 7 793 25. An LSU 4.9 sensor.

0 258 017 020

GM Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky - LSU 4.9 sensor (has connector 1 928 404 687) (Info from Banning Cohen 05 Sep '06).

0 258 017 025

Bosch LSU 4.9 sensor (has connector 1 928 404 682) sold by Tech Edge -

0 258 017 036

BMW N52 6 cylinder engine. LSU 4.9 sensor. (Info from Cameron Freeman 01 Aug '06).

[Highwaystar]

The WEGO III is a third generation product that utilizes the proven Bosch LSU 4.2 wide-band exhaust gas oxygen sensor. At the 2nd AHDRA 2007 Screamin' Eagle National Event at Firebird International Raceway in Phoenix, Desert Dawg Greg Krenik set a new AHDRA Pro Modified national record with an 8.815 ET. Greg uses the WEGO to tune his bike in practice and the results speak for themselve. Using our dual channel WEGO and an Edelbrock QwikData™ data acquisition system, J&P Cycles® just set a new national AMA speed record of 179.940 MPH in the 1350cc pushrod gas class at the 3rd annual Bub® International Land Speed Trials (September 2006 at the Bonneville Salt Flats Speedway). In 2005, Warren Johnson was the first racer to use our WEGO system for individual cylinder AFR monitoring. The original system is still working reliably after two seasons of hard racing. These are published facts using bosch wideband sensors. Reliability is clear.

[lonewolf55]

 http://www.bosch.com.au/content/language1/downloads/Oxgen_Sensor__Cat_WEB.pdf . This link talks about the 160,000 klm life span of theses sensors. It also explains where they are placed in the exhaust system to achieve that mileage. They are far enough downstream that they are heated to maintain 350 degrees C to be functional. Here is a quote from page A19. "The oxygen sensor should have a service life ranging from 50,000 Km - 160,000 Km dependant on sensor design,however this can be dramatically reduced by various conditions including overheating of the sensor, chemical poisoning and impact damage. Excluding physical damage, the majority of these conditions will result in the failure of the ceramic thimble by affecting its porous nature. This will result in a sensor that is slow to react to mixture change as shown below. A slow sensor will tend to make the air / fuel ratio of the vehicle drift rich." I think this is maybe what Mr. Cole means when he talks about these sensors not being used in the right application. I think my exhaust temperature 4" from the cylinder head is a little hotter than 350 degrees C.

[Steve Cole]

No failure documents just the reports from hundreds of users that have had trouble with them long before they should have. When racing we found as did most race teams that they would not last one race event for a 4 hour race. The life you speak of is a copy from the Bosch documentation but they are also very clear in that is only if you follow there requirements for installation. The following is a quote directly from the Bosch documentation where they discuss the aftermarket applications. Do you really think they would have added this if they were not seeing the issues that we in the industry already know about? Bosch recognized the problem and knows what is causing them so they added a comment in there documentation to warn you. It cannot get any clearer than that.


Important Note: It is common practice for these sensors to
be used in conjunction with various aftermarket air/fuel
ratio measurement devices, not of Bosch design or
manufacture. It should be noted that these sensors are more
susceptible to damage from thermal shock than the older
“Thimble” design sensors, this is mainly due to their much
higher operational temperatures. As detailed below, the
heater management strategy used for the LSU 4 sensor is
quite complex and generally vehicle specific. Whilst these
sensors are “Universal” in their measurement capabilities,
they are not designed to be “Universal” in their installation
position. Installation position is critical to prevent moisture
settling into the sensor element during shut down; hence
the sensor should never be allowed to become inverted
during storage. Therefore when using these sensors for
temporary air/fuel ratio measurements, i.e. chassis/engine
dynamometer testing, the operator should take care to
protect the sensor from moisture ingress and physical
damage that may create the potential of thermal shock to
the sensor element resulting in premature sensor failure.

Highwaystar

As for there use in an automobile they are NOT used for fuel control, only for testing a catalytic converter which is what they were designed for! The automobile manufactures followed the requirements that Bosch stated and they have to last for 100,000 miles as that is part of the EPA requirements. So I will say again, if and when any of the aftermarket manufactures start to follow the sensor requirements as Bosch has called for then and only then you will start seeing things work to the document specifications.

You can cut and paste whatever you like because you keep leaving out main parts of the data. "to tune his bike in practice" Notice that in your post the sensor is removed for racing and were only used for tuning..................... ever wonder why every racer takes them out? Reliability is clear and that is why all racers know when to remove them as they are going to fail! I will stick with what the manufacture of the sensors says to do and the years of experience we have in house with these sensors and you can continue to believe the advertising hype if you like.

[Highwaystar]

Steve, what is your comment on the fact that dozens of car manufactures are using WB sensors? Your "cut and paste from bosch" is appreciated information.

[HOGMIKE]

The lifetime of a Heated wide band sensor is typically 100,000 miles (160,000 km). Normal deposits are burned off during operation and failure occurs due to catalyst depletion over time, similar to the reason a battery stops producing current. Depending on the lead content of the fuel used, the expected service life time is:

for 0.6 g Pb/l: 20,000 km
for 0.4 g Pb/l: 30,000 km
for 0.15 g Pb/l: 60,000 km
for 0.00 g Pb/l: 160,000 km (ie. unleaded)            Steve do you have any failure documentation to disprove these well Known published facts?

I'm not sure why this is important to me.
Are you saying if I use this sensor in my Harley it will last anywhere from 20k to 160Km?
Why would I care? If one of my sensors fail, would I not get a check engine light to let me know??
I guess I'm just not getting the importance of this thread?

 

[Highwaystar]

Steve Cole has raised issue with reliability. No one else except Steve has complained of problems with Bosch reliability and application who has any credibility. Most of the Automotive applications including FAST are very positive and reliable. and yes, your bike would run like crap and show a light.  

[HOGMIKE]

The WEGO III is a third generation product that utilizes the proven Bosch LSU 4.2 wide-band exhaust gas oxygen sensor. At the 2nd AHDRA 2007 Screamin' Eagle National Event at Firebird International Raceway in Phoenix, Desert Dawg Greg Krenik set a new AHDRA Pro Modified national record with an 8.815 ET. Greg uses the WEGO to tune his bike in practice and the results speak for themselve. Using our dual channel WEGO and an Edelbrock QwikData™ data acquisition system, J&P Cycles® just set a new national AMA speed record of 179.940 MPH in the 1350cc pushrod gas class at the 3rd annual Bub® International Land Speed Trials (September 2006 at the Bonneville Salt Flats Speedway). In 2005, Warren Johnson was the first racer to use our WEGO system for individual cylinder AFR monitoring. The original system is still working reliably after two seasons of hard racing. These are published facts using bosch wideband sensors. Reliability is clear.

Sounds like a pretty high tech product. Are you a dealer/distributor for this??

[Highwaystar]

No, I work in the Ferrari world and have exposure to Turbo, Blower, and nitrous applications with Excel, Fast FI and others

[HOGMIKE]

Steve Cole has raised issue with reliability.

I believe the stock sensors have pretty good reliability...

IMO, the availability of different systems, is kinda like different carbs: everyone has their "favorites".
There was another thread with the question of what is the best carb (you can insert any term here you wish, seat, tire, spark plug, etc.).
I am pretty happy with the parts I run on my bikes, they are all different, but, I found what works on each one over years of trial and error.
Are my motors tuned to 100%, no, but, it works for me, over all !
I don't spend my time indoors chasing the latest technology, there are many other doing that.
I am an end user and don't really care about what "could" be, only "what is".
I really do appreciate the input of the tech wizards, and admit most is over my head, but, I think most members here are looking for good running bikes and not too concerned about chasing numbers.
Again, JMHO, but, it's fun reading for sure!
 

[HOGMIKE]

No, I work in the Ferrari world and have exposure to Turbo, Blower, and nitrous applications with Excel, Fast FI and others

Now THAT would be interesting work!!!