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[SBB]

Thanks Steve!

SBB

[Diamondback]

 

I agree with Steve.  However, I have the PC-V because of my deisre to run the bike at 13.8 versus the HD sensors at 14.2 or 14.3.  It may have been the map used on the bike (ie SSERT) but after several dyno tunes the bike would not run well in the 100 degree heat at altitude and didn't like the cold.  Could be the tune but since the PC V was installed by Fuel Moto, the bike runs cooler, gets better gas mileage (even over the stock setup which was 33 mpg best now get 38 two up) and has noticeable power band improvements at the normal riding range of 2000 to 3000 rpm.  I am sure at WOT the tune is not as critical but at the steady rpm for normal riding, the 13.8 works great.  I have tried the 14.3  and changed over to the PC V.  

That said, I didn't use Steve's TTS (didn't know about it at the time the decision was made) and after all I have read would agree it is a very good if not excellent choice. But I would not change now for anything.

 

[Diamondback]

 

Steve, so you can set the factory fairly narrow band sensors to operaste in a closed loop mode at 13.8?

So how do you get a good factory tune for timing?

 

[Twolanerider]

A variation on the zirconia sensor, called the "wideband" sensor, was introduced by Robert Bosch in 1994 but is (as of 2006) used in only a few vehicles. It is based on a planar zirconia element, but also incorporates an electrochemical gas pump. An electronic circuit containing a feedback loop controls the gas pump current to keep the output of the electrochemical cell constant, so that the pump current directly indicates the oxygen content of the exhaust gas. This sensor eliminates the lean-rich cycling inherent in narrow-band sensors, allowing the control unit to adjust the fuel delivery and ignition timing of the engine much more rapidly. In the automotive industry this sensor is also called a UEGO (for Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen) sensor. UEGO sensors are also commonly used in aftermarket dyno tuning and high-performance driver air-fuel display equipment.
A wideband o2 sensor system will give you far greater tuning ability than a narrowband sensor.  The problem with a narrowband sensor is that it is only truly accurate at 14.7:1 AFR.  The factory will have tuned your engine to run around at 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio (AFR) at cruise and light load conditions. This is the ‘chemically correct’ or ‘stoicheometric’ (stoich for short) AFR which basically means this is the air/fuel mixture at which the most complete burn of the fuel will occur, in other words, your bike comes tuned from the factory for reduced emissions and that's why that narrowband sensor is there.  Therefore it will be useful for tuning cruise Air/Fuel Ratio (AFR) only as long as you’re tuning for 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio.  However under Wide Open Throttle you’ll want to tune for somewhere between 12 and 13:1 (NA) or richer (FI) most likely and the narrowband won’t tell you anything useful at that range.  Likewise at cruise you may not want to tune for 14.7:1, maybe you want better fuel economy at cruise and you want to tune to 15.5:1 or even a bit leaner possibly. Only a wideband can give you accurate feedback outside of the stoich 14.7:1 reading that NB sensors are designed for, and allow you to tune for best power and best economy.

Cut and pastes really need a citation.

[SBB]

Cut and pastes really need a citation.

But Don, if that happened it would be seen for what it is.
A cut and paste.

SBB

[Twolanerider]

But Don, if that happened it would be seen for what it is.
A cut and paste.

SBB

Have noticed that MFGing seemingly "important" posts was getting more common again lately.  Lack of citation isn't quite as bad as just making chit up.  But it's close.

[Steve Cole]

Here is what most people are missing here I believe. It is not where you tune to during calibration time that counts it is the fact that you need to get the ECM correctly calibrated for the components you have installed. So we use the switching sensors to get the VE tables calibrated by using the sensor where it is very accurate, so the ECM can deliver the command fuel properly. Once that is done all you do is set the fuel mixture to what you desire and that's what you will get.

Now let's take any add-on type device that looks at the mixture after it has already been burned and tries to correct. There is nothing wrong with doing it that way, but it applies a correction to something that is being issued by the ECM. Since the ECM has several modes that it operates in to deliver fuel which one is it that it is correcting for becomes the question. A constantly moving target is very hard to hit to start with. Now add to that that the sensors being used to do the testing cannot accurately read the mixture and what have you got? If the aftermarket had followed what the manufacture calls for in the specification data sheet it would be different but none that I have seen or read about have followed the specifications given by Bosch to use the sensor properly. If anyone can show me one that corrects for exhaust pressure and temperature as called out for by the specification sheet I would love to see it. So with that in mind what are you getting with them? According to the datasheet that gives you a 20% spread worst case when not using the corrections. So a fuel mixture of let's say 13:1 the sensor uncorrected could be read as 11.7:1 - 14.3:1. Which one do you want to pick and call it good?

You can quote what Bosch says the sensor is capable of doing all day long but if you not going to do what they say you have to do to get those results would be like pissing into a 30 mph headwind and thinking your not going to get wet.

Look a properly tuned engine is what were all after but claims that by using BroadBand Sensors things are better than using the stock switching sensors is pure marketing hype at its finest when your not going to use the Broad Band sensors properly!

[sadunbar]

I am hurt and confused...

I called you a shill...  (Chip only later elaborated with an excellent definition of a shill)

SteveFLHTK called your posts "puffery"...  (which was not a compliment to you...just so you know...)

HD-Dude called out your extraordinary claims - only to find out you left out key portions of your story.

Steve Cole tried to correct some of your mis-statements with an educational post.

TwoLanerider called you out for your unattributed "cut and paste" wisdom - twice...

And yet only Chip (SBB) - has received an award in the form of a fine certificate.

Speaking for myself....I feel slighted and hurt by the ommision of recognition of my contribution to your contributions.

I suspect some other contributors may also feel slighted by the lack of recognition of their contributions....expecially since awards were involved.

I just had to get that off my chest....  I feel better now....   

Please proceed with your shillery....

[SBB]

I am hurt and confused...

I called you a shill...  (Chip only later elaborated with an excellent definition of a shill)

SteveFLHTK called your posts "puffery"...  (which was not a compliment to you...just so you know...)

HD-Dude called out your extraordinary claims - only to find out you left out key portions of your story.

Steve Cole tried to correct some of your mis-statements with an educational post.

TwoLanerider called you out for your unattributed "cut and paste" wisdom - twice...

And yet only Chip (SBB) - has received an award in the form of a fine certificate.

Speaking for myself....I feel slighted and hurt by the ommision of recognition of my contribution to your contributions.

I suspect some other contributors may also feel slighted by the lack of recognition of their contributions....expecially since awards were involved.

I just had to get that off my chest....  I feel better now....    

Please proceed with your shillery....

I must be special!
I wonder if I'll get more Glare?


SBB

[Twolanerider]

I must be special!
I wonder if I'll get more Glare?


SBB

Screw the Glare.  I want a damned award; dammit (pardon the redundancy).  Dyno sheets don't lie (dammit)!  And I've got one right here that says I should get an award too!  It says so right here on the dyno sheet.  My award is an even higher HP award than yours because I pumped the back tire up to 50 psi and ran it in 6th gear and tweaked the relative humidity, altitude and barometric pressure settings.  But the dyno sheet can't lie!  I read it on the Internet so it's true.

If Chip gets an award Scott and I want one too.  We're just as big of chitheads as he is.  Even if we don't try as hard at it.   Grumble grumble grumble.  I'd fix this chit if I were a modera.........   What the hell did I almost just say !

[sadunbar]

It's too bad an excellent site is tarnished by abusive personalities who spend their time bashing others. Obviously this is some sort of "click" and I am out side the circle of royalty. I have 30 years of drag racing, Motorcycle racing, Professional Race car fabricating, Chassis and engine tuning, Sports car racing, Bike building, Bike chassis and engine tuning, AMA Race team tuning, 12 years of Motorcycle Ice Racing,  Vintage auto racing, 10 years of Proto type Ferrari fabrication and owned some F-in fast crotch rockets and  HD's. I keep a lot of my competition trophy's in storage and throw away the "show car and bike" crap. I have a national IHRA engineering award and numerous other awards.  More than just owning an HD bike and pasting sh*t so I can get bashed by people like you. I thought I would be welcome here. Shame on you for being so High and f-in mighty. You obviously Know nothing of me or my intentions. Thanks Buddy, It's a sadunbar world.

I think that once again...you have missed the point.

And if anyone is offering some Glare....   

[HOGMIKE]

I think that once again...you have missed the point.

And if anyone is offering some Glare....   

Poof!

 

As Rodney King once said:...................................
well, you know the rest!

[SBB]

I think that once again...you have missed the point.

And if anyone is offering some Glare....   

OK, OK, I'll send you a bottle. ( )

What I find most interesting about this thread is that Jamie (Fuel Moto) is getting a lot of air time.
And the best I can tell he is a smart guy with a quality product.
He's got to be loving this.
It's been a very entertaining thread.

SBB

[HOGMIKE]

Screw the Glare.  I want a damned award; dammit (pardon the redundancy).  Dyno sheets don't lie (dammit)!  And I've got one right here that says I should get an award too!  It says so right here on the dyno sheet.  My award is an even higher HP award than yours because I pumped the back tire up to 50 psi and ran it in 6th gear and tweaked the relative humidity, altitude and barometric pressure settings.  But the dyno sheet can't lie!  I read it on the Internet so it's true.

If Chip gets an award Scott and I want one too.  We're just as big of chitheads as he is.  Even if we don't try as hard at it.   Grumble grumble grumble.  I'd fix this chit if I were a modera.........   What the hell did I almost just say !

That's why I get to go ride, clears out the cobwebs from my brain! LOL
I understand about "cabin fever"........had that once, until I got the "cure"!!!
 

[Highwaystar]

It has been entertaining in a twisted kind of way.    Politics: �Poli� a Latin word meaning �many�; and tics meaning �bloodsucking creatures�.

Robin Williams