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[lilcoot]

"I continually hear on this forum that PCV sucks. It's SILLY. It is a Bandaid Approach, Etc..Etc...Etc... It appears from this forum that TTS has been sent from God and is a miracle product. I will stress that don't know anything about TTS. But all I can say is that I purchased the PVC from Fuelmoto (Cheapest price anywhere) with a map they supplied for my setup. Took the seat off, plugged it in and it has been flawless for 13,000 miles.

My 9+ years and many, many miles of personal experience with Power Commander has only left me with positive results. On this site, if your not running Fullsac X-pipes, Fullsac Power Cores and a TTS tuner the sky will surely fall on you."

AMEN, BROTHER! 

Nothing but TTS Mastertune is worthy to be discussed here.  You must conform or be cast out!

Everything else is snake oil!  Everything else is inferior and a waste of money!!  It's the Second Coming of JC!!!  Just ask anyone who uses the TTS.

[timo482]

you listed the entire problem in the first sentence - 9 plus years. 9 years ago they were great. 9 years ago hd was the last major engine mfg that did NOT use closed loop ecm's in there engines.

the world changed - time to get OVER IT

9 years ago the only place they put alcohol in fuel was, i believe , iowa - now its almost everywhere. today one station has premium that is special for bikes and the next 10 don't. essentially the ENTIRE issue with the pc is that it makes any engine intolerant of alcohol OR dependent on it. the engine cant just adjust to fuel on its own.

 as to tts - the reason guys here like tts is that it, like the pc, can be removed so that you can get warranty service. other than that the sert does the same job but wont do gear changes properly [at this point only tts does gear changes properly] & quite a few other tuners will do a good job of tuning the bike at various price points. what is different on this site is that quite a few do gear changes - so obviously the tts is better because gear changes can and will make the cruise control quit working - ick - tts fixes that particular ick.

a pc on a pre 07 bike is as good as any other tuning device on any other pre 07 engine.

so - if you dont have gear change issues - and you dont drive away from your known fuel source then a pc will work for you - if you travel its clearly the snake oil as you will find places - whole states where the fuel will change and it will run terrible.

there IS a way to get around the problem - set the fuel rich enough on gas so that when you get a 20 percent mixture it runs right - but that might take 5 or 10 mpg off the top

to

[willyB]

So, let's see, if I'm getting 42-44 MPG, the bike runs perfectly and I have taken a 4,000 mile trip to the mountains from the relative flatlands of Missouri through 5 states (Kansas, Colorado, Wyoming, South Dakota and Iowa) and multiple fuel stops without any issues what so ever and no change in performance or fuel milage then I'm using the wrong device?

Quite frankly, I find it offensive for members of this or any forum to use phrases such as; "SILLY", "SNAKE OIL", BANDAID APPROACH", "ANYONE WHO IS TRULY KNOWLEDGE", "THROW AWAY GOOD MONEY", Etc... Etc.. Etc... regarding one members choice of products purchased for their particular machines.

Please tell me what I'm missing by not using TTS. I'm all ears.

So far there are 7 benfits that I've read on TTS.
1) I'll get 5-10 more MPG's
2) My cruise control will work if I change gearing
3) I can get gas in any state and improve HP and TQ
4) It's not SILLY
5) It's not SNAKE OIL
6) It's not a BANDAID APPROACH
7) ANYONE WHO IS TRULY KNOWLEDGEABLE uses closed loop system

Again, "STEVE (TTS VENDOR) and JAMIE (POWERCOMMANDER VENDOR) ANY INPUT?"

By the way, Lilcoot, you cracked me up.

[glens]

You're not using the "wrong" device, you're simply using a less-optimal device.  You've disabled closed-loop operation in order to use it, so it's highly unlikely your trip across several states has provided you with no change in performance and/or mileage.  Unless you (effectively) threw away the money you'd already spent for the stock closed-loop setup and then spent it (and more) again just to regain it with the PC-V.

You're not going to get Jamie and Steve to go head to head in the forum.  Anybody who's actually used both types of systems knows which is better.  Why can't you accept their input?

[Twolanerider]

 It's the Second Coming of JC!!!

Let's not bring the Moderators in to this .

[clegg]

     As a mechanic I find this whole debate comical. Why would anyone choose to dis-able one of the best advancements in powertrain managment? A system that can adapt fuel delivery to optimize for current conditions used to be something to dream about, and now owners of new bikes are working to get around it? Why? How about just going all the way back to the stone age and retro-fit your bikes to a carb? Get some bias ply tires and a screw for cruise control while you're at it....
Not me!

[Twolanerider]

No debate that the TTS package offers a level of control not available elsewhere.  Nor that if one is willing to spend some time (perhaps a lot of time) he or she can manage a decent tuning effort on his own.  It's been at least suggested, however, that the Power Commander somehow minimizes or cripples a bike's ability to compensate for changes in the ambient environment.  Elevation changes were mentioned.  From the FAQ on Dynojet website:

Q: I have read that the Power Commander just “fools” the ECM by sending false signals to it and that by doing this the bike cannot adjust for changing altitude or temperature. Is this correct?

A: The very first Power Commanders (Power Commander 1 and 2) made back in the 90’s did use sensor manipulation to control fuel. Those units were discontinued many years ago. Since the release of PCIII (then PCIIIusb and PCV) Power Commanders have used “direct injector control” to make fuel changes. After the ECM does all of its calculations for altitude and temperature it then sends the commands to the injectors where the Power Commander intercepts them. We then recalculate the injector time and control the injectors directly. This allows all of the bikes’ built in compensation to still work so that the Power Commander map does not need to be adjusted for different conditions.

While doing anything that suspends closed loop operation is an important consideration it should also be noted that Power Commander isn't the only thing that will do that.  If it's directed to go too rich (as defined within the ECM) with any tuning unit the ECM will go out of closed loop.

[willyB]

Bias ply tires, big 4 barrel carbs, headers, dual exhaust, no catalytic converters, no o2 sensors, no electronic management systems and no check engine lights seem pretty cool on one of those stone age Yenko Camaro's. Heck, people could even worked on their own stuff back then.  

[clegg]

It is true that several factors will cause a system to default to open loop. Other than startup though the ECM should achieve closed loop at temperature and maintain it unless there is a problem. If the adaptives are so far out of wack that the ECM is trying to correct past it's abilities it will indeed default to open loop, but this is indicative of a larger problem, and will require some fixin'. Any time I have a vehicle hooked up to the computer for any reason I will take a peak at the long term adaptive numbers. If these numbers are calling for an abnormaly high rich or lean adjustment you know there is a problem somewhere waiting to rear it's ugly head. When I think about it though, I am sure a WOT command will likely drop you out of closed loop while at WOT, but that's normal, and who runs around all day at WOT? I am curious about "parade" mode though. I suspect that would also cause a shift to open loop... Anyone know? Regardless I am no fan of the PC due to failures I have encountered. I hope I am not saying the same thing about my current system in a year...   By the way, I love old school muscle cars with all their old fashioned horsepower producing goodies, but you also have to admit that they are not very practical as cross country machines, or very efficient. Those old engines were also junk at or before 100,000 miles. My crappy camry using new technology has 320,000 miles on it and going strong... it is a soul-less bitch, but it is reliable and efficient (thanks to modern fuel management).

[willyB]

It is true that several factors will cause a system to default to open loop. Other than startup though the ECM should achieve closed loop at temperature and maintain it unless there is a problem. If the adaptives are so far out of wack that the ECM is trying to correct past it's abilities it will indeed default to open loop, but this is indicative of a larger problem, and will require some fixin'. Any time I have a vehicle hooked up to the computer for any reason I will take a peak at the long term adaptive numbers. If these numbers are calling for an abnormaly high rich or lean adjustment you know there is a problem somewhere waiting to rear it's ugly head. When I think about it though, I am sure a WOT command will likely drop you out of closed loop while at WOT, but that's normal, and who runs around all day at WOT? I am curious about "parade" mode though. I suspect that would also cause a shift to open loop... Anyone know? Regardless I am no fan of the PC due to failures I have encountered. I hope I am not saying the same thing about my current system in a year...   By the way, I love old school muscle cars with all their old fashioned horsepower producing goodies, but you also have to admit that they are not very practical as cross country machines, or very efficient. Those old engines were also junk at or before 100,000 miles. My crappy camry using new technology has 320,000 miles on it and going strong... it is a soul-less bitch, but it is reliable and efficient (thanks to modern fuel management).

I've got a Honda Accord with around 200,000 miles on it and a Honda S2000 with about 50,000 miles and I've never touched them except for basic maintainance. Just like your Camry, the Accord is definitely soul-less. But the S2000 is one wild ride (I have removed the cat, resinator, installed high flow mufflers and put on a cold air intake). I should point out that the S2000's ECM did not need another device to manage this change.

The S2000 is a great handling machine but has no low end TQ.  It revs quickly to 8,000 RPM (rev limited) with the Variable Valve Timing kicking in at 6,200 RPM. Top speed is 150 MPH (I've had it to 146 MPH), the rated HP is 246, it's a 2-seat convertible, it goes through rear tires like candy and my all stock quarter mile times are in the upper 12's. It will out run many American V-8's, is a blast to 4-wheel drift into a set of S turns at very high speeds and I'm getting 29 MPG (Not with my foot in it).

It's a great modern performance machine with all the proper engineering and modern electronic stuff. But the problem is that it sits in my garage most of the time while I'm out riding my stone age design V-twin machine. Granted, HD did install a modern fuel management system.

Maybe someday Harley will start building Modern Water Cooled 4 Valve Per Cylinder Motors with Variable Cam Timing, a proper shifting transmission with precise engineering and production techinques that will allow Harley V-Twins to reach 200,000 to 300,000 miles with perfect reliability. Wait, I could have bought a Gold Wing.

[clegg]

Blasphemer!

[willyB]

Gold Wing Never! 
Harley Davidson Forever!

[CVOThunder]

I'd be happy as a clam running a Motus V-4 in a bagger frame.

[Midnight Rider]

I'd be happy as a clam running a Motus V-4 in a bagger frame.

THAT would be a fun ride...

[glens]

... the S2000 is one wild ride (I have removed the cat, resinator, installed high flow mufflers and put on a cold air intake). I should point out that the S2000's ECM did not need another device to manage this change.

You'll no doubt find a Mass Air Flow sensor somewhere in the intake tract, which I'm sure goes a long way toward developing a proper profile for the changes you'd made.