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[Kuminatcha]

Just had a stage one done on my 2013 CVO Road King and seem to have lost some torque for some reason. Would someone please look at my dyno sheet and fill me in as to what's going wrong if anything. Just seemed to have more power when it was stock. Went with Vance & Hines power duals and 4 1/2" high output mufflers just as recomended by factory. Also what can be done to get the power back? Not a speed junkie but love to feel power. Thanks for any help.

[FLSTFI Dave]

Well, the mufflers you choose, the 4 1/2 High outputs, look great and sound great.  However they do not have enough back pressure to make good torque. 

That is very similar to what I had with that muffler.  By changing to a Fullsac 2 inch core in the stock muffler and no other change my torque was 114 and hp was 96.

The torque came on much lower RPM also, this was on my 09 CVO, it had the fullsac head pipe with both mufflers.

I still have the hi out puts but they have not been put on another bike.  Running Jackpot pro tours on my 12, its 95 hp and 115 torque.  Running Fullsac head pipe and his 2.25 baffels in my 13.  No need on HP and torque as there is other motor work too.

[grc]

Just had a stage one done on my 2013 CVO Road King and seem to have lost some torque for some reason. Would someone please look at my dyno sheet and fill me in as to what's going wrong if anything. Just seemed to have more power when it was stock. Went with Vance & Hines power duals and 4 1/2" high output mufflers just as recomended by factory. Also what can be done to get the power back? Not a speed junkie but love to feel power. Thanks for any help.

I don't understand the highlighted portion of your post.  What "factory" recommended that combination of parts?  I'm sure it wasn't H-D.

Take a look at the air-fuel ratio on your chart.  

Jerry

[TorqueInc]

  Put a cam in it and get it tuned,only so much you can do with the emissions 255 cam.

  Consider the Kury 24D has worked well in every build its been in so far

[Kuminatcha]

I don't understand the highlighted portion of your post.  What "factory" recommended that combination of parts?  I'm sure it wasn't H-D.

Take a look at the air-fuel ratio on your chart.  

Jerry

I called Vance & Hines and told them the setup that my local MoCo had recommended and was told that was perfect for my motor.

[michaelbmenaker]

Those are decent numbers. Ride the thing... I doubt that you'll feel much difference after spending money on different mufflers, headers or another dyno tune. Spend that money on motels and take a road trip. Seriously.

[Kuminatcha]

Those are decent numbers. Ride the thing... I doubt that you'll feel much difference after spending money on different mufflers, headers or another dyno tune. Spend that money on motels and take a road trip. Seriously.

If I could have the $2,500 back that I spent I could enjoy those things. Had no idea that a little sound could cost so much, just expected it to be better than it was or I would have left it alone and just added slipons and been done with it.

[RayG]

In my opinion $2,500.00 was allot to pay for what you received.  I see you are new to the site other wise you might have gone with the Fullsac recomendations.  Did you ask the dealer what you could expect for your investment?  Is your bike running hot?  You may want to inquire as to what Jerry was getting to on your AFR chart.  You are at the right place for any & all that pertains to your CVO, I have learned allot and it almost equals the amount I have spent in upgrades!
Quite a few of us have not fared well for performance work done at the MOCO while others have done OK.  Do allot of reading using the search feature and you will become an expert on what to do and what not to do.  I would be disapointed as well.


Good Luck

[Kuminatcha]

I don't understand the highlighted portion of your post.  What "factory" recommended that combination of parts?  I'm sure it wasn't H-D.

Take a look at the air-fuel ratio on your chart.  

Jerry

Could you please explain about the air fuel ratio? I'm supposed to bring it back to the dealer to have it retuned and dynoed again, is there something I need to bring up to them?

[timo482]

bummer on your torque curve..... hp sucks just terrible - worse than stock - this is the proverbial all show and no go setup.

common problem - to use a pipe that open you need a LOT more engine.

where the problem comes, especially to a newcomer to performance mods, is that sound DOES NOT equal power - the next issue is that power at high rpm is what 90% of marketing is oriented to, ie power at 100 mph. what the typical user actually wants, but does not know he wants, is power from 2000 to 4000 rpm. stock head pipe with no cat, or a small dia two into one into two head pipe with a large volume muffler with a moderate dia core is what gets that power - and its not very loud. fulsac, etc et al.

a stock 255 cam will make LOTS of power under 4500 rpm. there are probably 100 cams avail that will fit - and two or three of them will make a normal rider happy, 255, 54, 204 etc - what the race guys call "school bus cams" are exactly what the typical rider actually wants, but not what the typical rider thinks he wants.

however - none of that will make either the dealer or the suppliers much money, what they want you to do is spend as much money as you have available chasing numbers. and to keep spending money chasing numbers till you get frustrated and buy another new bike and spend money chasing numbers on that bike. makes them very very happy.

you have to decide - do you want to race? do you ride 100mph regularly? or do you want max power at 3000 rpm right in the sweet spot on a bagger?

if you actually want the latter then find builders that can show you torque curves that are really high, broad & flat from 2500 to 4500 rpm and hp peak at 5000 rpm that starts really high to begin with at 2500 rpm. and do that.

everybody else will gladly tell you whatever you want to hear to get you to open your wallet.

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[Unbalanced]

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[Unbalanced]

If it were mine, I would want to see what the bike dyno's out in 5th gear not 4th it should bring the overall numbers up a couple.   i would make sure I had proper air pressure in the tires.

I would want to see what the entire dyno would look like if the Air Fuel was set at 13.5 to 1 across the board, as well as 13.0 to 1 across the board or possibly 12.8.   Every bike is different. 

I would LOSE The mufflers you have unless you jsut love the sound and if you do then dont put the bike back through a redyno process.   14 to 1 as you start out on the Wide Open Sweep Pull for your numbers is a lot higher than I would ever pull a bike or want a bike dyno done at even though it does come down a bit at the end of the run.

The norm is typically 13.0 to 1 where that red line goes across your dyno sheet.   

If you take a 2 x 4 and cover half of the muffler while they run it on the dyno you shold all of a sudden see your numbers jump up it is because there is not enough back pressure.   You might try a Kuryakyn muffler or have your stock ones recored for a 2" baffle from FullSac or go with a good 2 into 1 pipe.

Good luck.

[willyB]

Just had a stage one done on my 2013 CVO Road King and seem to have lost some torque for some reason. Would someone please look at my dyno sheet and fill me in as to what's going wrong if anything. Just seemed to have more power when it was stock. Went with Vance & Hines power duals and 4 1/2" high output mufflers just as recomended by factory. Also what can be done to get the power back? Not a speed junkie but love to feel power. Thanks for any help.

Kuminatcha,

Don't be fooled by the mystery dyno numbers out there!!!

ALL dyno numbers are VERY subjective. There are a ton of things that make dyno numbers iffy to say the least.

I'm running a de-chatted stock header (very similar to you power duals) and the hi-output Slipons. I'm also running a FREE map from FuelMoto for my PowerCommander tuner. You're going to hear all the reasons why you spent your money the wrong way and all that. BUT...if you look at all of the dyno numbers on this site using new pipes/headers/tuners and then throw out all of the highs and lows and then take an average of those number you'll see your numbers a pretty much on par.

My numbers were something like 89 HP and 108 TQ. But you'll see numbers out there with numbers like 99 HP and 115 TQ.

You're bike will feel different now that it has a chance to breath. You're perception of loss in TQ could simply be the engines ability to rev quicker than before.

The best setup for a daily rider these 110's require headwork with proper valve sizing and a little more compression. The stock cam is a great cam for a touring bike with its low TQ but they run out of rev pretty quick. Basically, don't waste your time revving past 4000 rpm. But if you prefer huge TQ and HP with a higher rev limit them there's plenty of money to spend.

These 110's have no balls below 2000 rpm or above 4000 rpm. Basically they are 2000 rpm motors, right where we ride anyway.

[FLSTFI Dave]

I called Vance & Hines and told them the setup that my local MoCo had recommended and was told that was perfect for my motor.

What would you expect Vance & Hines to tell you about the product they are selling?  Of course they tell you it was perfect.

Now ask people who tune bikes for a living.  Ask DOC what he thinks of the vance and hines high out puts.

Vance and hines is all about sales, looks and sound.  My opinion, based on what I saw with their high out put mufflers on my bike.  Sound great, look great, not so good for power on a 110 motor

[grc]

Could you please explain about the air fuel ratio? I'm supposed to bring it back to the dealer to have it retuned and dynoed again, is there something I need to bring up to them?

Scroll up to Unbalanced's post, he explained it very well.  Your guy has the wide open throttle AFR set at almost 14:1.  That is too lean for max power.  Look at that red dashed line on the chart at 13:1.  That was the target, but for whatever reason the guy doing the tune didn't meet it.  Most Harley's seem to produce best power somewhere between 12.8 and 13.2 AFR.

If you look at a chart for a stock 110 the torque curve starts out higher than yours (close to 100 ft-lb) at 2500 rpm and stays about the same until it starts falling off after 3500 rpm.  So what you're feeling is also shown on your chart, you seem to have lost some bottom end power and gained about 5 ft-lb between 3500 and 4000 rpm.  Overall your peak numbers are maybe 4-5% higher than a stock bike, and regardless of the BS claims by the various pipe companies you aren't likely to do a whole lot better with just a pipe change.  Pipes alone rarely produce power increases close to the claims made by the pipe companies, especially the ones built for looks and noise rather than true performance.

Jerry