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[Heatwave]

From the Power Vision website:

PV-1 or PV-2 Kit         $549.00
Autotune Pro Kit         $420.00
          Total:             $969.00*

*Extras required on late models with 12mm heated O₂ sensors are new 18mm bungs for the wideband sensors and the labor to install them to the pipes.  Not included in the above pricing.

Yes, I know you can forgo the wideband Pro kit and supposedly do the basic "auto tune" with the stock sensors.  Since narrow band sensors aren't very accurate once you stray from the stoichiometric mixture, this is obviously not the ultimate setup.

This price is comparable to the other widely known "auto tune" solution from Thunder Max btw.  You are basically looking at $900+ at SRP, and the systems still require a very good base map to provide the claimed results.  So you can spend your $900 on a misrepresented "auto tune" product and hope the base map meets all your needs, or you can spend your $900 on a TTS/SEPST/etc. and a dyno tune where a good tuner will adjust all the parameters, not just the fuel.

In a perfect world neither solution would be necessary, and neither solution would cost nearly a grand either.  Since the world of Harley is infinitely far from perfect, we get to pick our overpriced poison and HOPE we are one of the lucky ones who either gets a good canned map, or gets a good fully qualified professional tuner.  Sadly there are plenty of Harley riders who have been screwed using either approach, and I'm quite sure that will continue to be the case until engine management systems are mandated to be totally tamperproof and local authorities check compliance during annual inspections.  And I have no doubt that those things will eventually come to pass, probably in California first and then eventually everywhere.

It's amazing how we don't have to go through all this bull crap with four wheeled vehicles.  Even the 500 and 600 horsepower factory hot rods run pretty damned good right off the showroom floor.  Strange how they can do it, but Harley can't.  I wonder if that's because the auto industry can't get away with dealers defeating the emission systems like Harley and it's dealers can.  So there is an incentive for the auto folks to get it right, while there is an incentive for Harley to pass off half-assed stock stuff and then make more money selling you stuff to "fix" your new bike.

Jerry

Not sure why you would suggest that you can "supposedly" autotune with PV Basic Autotune. The vast majority of PV users that autotune use the stock O2 sensors therefore do not purchase the wide band sensor kit. If you start with a reasonably close map to your build than Basic Autotuning is fine in my opinion. Is the tune going to be better with WB sensors? Sure. Is it worth the extra cost. IMO, No if you start with a closely matched map.

For the record the last time I used SEPST was Feb 2012. At that time my version of the software did not make the timing change. It's certainly possible that SEPST has the same approach to Autotuning by reducing spark advance. If SEPST and PV both now use this approach to Autotuning it begs the question why others do not.

TTS in the past used to lock out the ECM from being accessed by anyone using any other software. Therefore if you had a TTS map on your bike and needed service work at an HD dealer that required access to the ECM, you were SOL. Might want to check to see if TTS still locks the EvM since none of the other tuners prevent access to the ECM. If TTS still locks out the ECM that would be a non starter for me.

[redmtrckl]

You can lead a horse to water but ya can't make him drink.
I like the product I'm using and I like the fact that I can call and talk to the man that invented it and I like the fact that it works like the book says it will.
Oh yeah, I did read the book. I have tuned on the road and on the dyno and the dyno tune is by far the best tune.

[Fired00d]

 

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[sadunbar]

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

    

[Steve Cole]

TTS in the past used to lock out the ECM from being accessed by anyone using any other software. Therefore if you had a TTS map on your bike and needed service work at an HD dealer that required access to the ECM, you were SOL. Might want to check to see if TTS still locks the EvM since none of the other tuners prevent access to the ECM. If TTS still locks out the ECM that would be a non starter for me.

More opinion from you again with no facts that are true.

The SESPT when it introduced there version of Vtune called Smarttune in late 2010 removed timing from the tables. So if you worked with it in 2012 it had it then and if you used Smarttune you were getting just what PV has today. Timing removed and tuning from idle to 7000 RPM. The dealership can still do all there work with a TTS in place other than reprogram the ECM which would wipe out your custom calibration. You need to go get your facts in order as you are clearly missing them in this thread.

Like I said before, it's clear you have an agenda other than being truthful about how things truely work.

You  like the PV and that is great but let's not muddy the waters with fiction just because you like one and not the others.

 

[Heatwave]

So let's square away the record for all TTS users once and for all. Can a dealership make a modification to a bike's ECM that utilizes TTS. Let's say its a recall regarding a download to a bike's ECM. Can the dealership make the necessary modifications without wiping out the map the bike is running on or are they blocked out from making changes to the ECM by the TTS software?

Let's play a game of TRANSPARENCY for all the readers. Its a simple game of answering some simple questions with a yes or no answer. This way the readers can take into consideration if there are commercial interests that might play a role in the advice being shared. Here's the simple questions:

1) Do you recieve a royalty or profit in any way from the sale of TTS?
2) Do you recieve a royalty or profit in any way from the sale of SEPST?
3) Do you recieve a royalty or profit in any way from the sale of PowerVision?
4) Do you offer commercial motorcycle dyno tuning services and profit from the sale of any particular tuning software?

These are simple questions. There's no good or bad answer. It's just a way of providing transparency to the readers regarding opinions or advice that readers might be considering.

I'll go first.
1) NO
2) NO
3) NO
4) NO

Who's next?

[Steve Cole]

At the risk of  more how about you answer one simple question.

Why is it you cannot tell the truth?

It's simple and rest assured the facts are what they are.
You are no more entitle to state an opinion than I or anyone else is but make sure to not confuse Facts with Opinions.

[hrdtail78]

So let's square away the record for all TTS users once and for all. Can a dealership make a modification to a bike's ECM that utilizes TTS.

Yes


Let's say its a recall regarding a download to a bike's ECM. Can the dealership make the necessary modifications without wiping out the map the bike is running on or are they blocked out from making changes to the ECM by the TTS software?

You can't download any map into any ECM with out wiping out the map.  What are they fixing with the downlaod?  Do I want the change done?  Is my custom Tune made on the dyno better and should be left there?

Let's play a game of TRANSPARENCY for all the readers. Its a simple game of answering some simple questions with a yes or no answer. This way the readers can take into consideration if there are commercial interests that might play a role in the advice being shared. Here's the simple questions:

1) Do you recieve a royalty or profit in any way from the sale of TTS?
2) Do you recieve a royalty or profit in any way from the sale of SEPST?
3) Do you recieve a royalty or profit in any way from the sale of PowerVision?
4) Do you offer commercial motorcycle dyno tuning services and profit from the sale of any particular tuning software?

These are simple questions. There's no good or bad answer. It's just a way of providing transparency to the readers regarding opinions or advice that readers might be considering.

I'll go first.
1) NO
2) NO
3) NO
4) NO

Who's next?

[Heatwave]

I always tell the truth. If I'm mistaken on a particularly topic I will gladly stand corrected. The last version of SEPST I used did not include timing reduction before autotuning. I was not aware that it had since been upgraded to include that methodology. I'm glad to hear they now have it since I still own SEPST but haven't upgraded the software in quite awhile since I've been using PV. Now I will update my SEPST software.

Nothing else I've said has been incorrect. Both SEPST and PV do not place restrictions on the ECM requiring that the map on the ECM be wiped out if accessed by software other than the original tuning software. Only TTS has this limitation. Both TTS and SEPST require a laptop for any type of tuning whether its auto or manual. TTS has the added disadvantage of requiring that the laptop be strapped to the bike in order to datalog for V-tuning purposes. Smarttuning with SEPST requires storing riding data on a key which then must be disconnected from the bike, connected to a laptop, downloaded, Smarttuned, uploaded to the key, then reconnected to the bike and flashed from the key to the ECM.

These are absolute facts.

The PV absolutely does NOT require a laptop for basic autotuning which uses the stock O2 sensors. It does NOT need to be disconnected from the bike. The user can autotune with PV without ever leaving the seat of the bike. Autotuning is included in the price of the PV along with a full library of maps a display unit for mounting on the handlebar and WINPV software for more extensive tuning on a laptop if the user wants to.

These too are also absolute facts.

Let's avoid disparaging remarks about who's telling the truth and who's not. It's unnecessary. If an opinion needs to be corrected or a fact is mistated let's assume its an "honest" mistake and correct the record.

And for the record, it might be helpful if posters were willing to share in full transparency if they have an economic interest in any of these products. I do not.

[SBB]

Looking for a tuner basically to improve performance and reduce lean condition in the motor.  Only mod I've made to mike is removed cat from stock pipe otherwise I plan to leave it alone and ride it.

IRISHSE

Glad you are on the site.
I have a 2012 SERGC with the 110.
I also have a 2011.5 SEUC with the 110.
I like simple chit. Two men I trust on this site (Jim, hd-dude and Steve George, Fullsac) told me that in their opinion the best tuner for my bike was the TTS Mastertune.
I paid my money, I took the chance. I could not be more pleased. I am also pleased that the man that built the TTS Mastertune is an active member of this site. When there is a question about the TTS Mastertune, we (members here) can go to Steve Cole and get an answer. I have been told that sometimes my delivery sucks and maybe the same can be said about Steve Cole's delivery but every time there is a question about his product he does his best to help. That is what's important to me.
Well that and the fact that all of the above listed people were very instrumental in our effort to get our site owner a new bike. They care about their product and they care about this site. How cool is that?  

Good luck in what you decide. I bought my first TTS Mastertune 27 months ago and unless I see facts that there is a better product available I will use the TTS Mastertune on my next bike. All of us have a passion for our bikes and want the best for them. IRISHSE you asked the question and I gave you an answer based on my experience with two 110's. And I will say again, it has been a great experience.

SBB

[IRISHSE]

IRISHSE

Glad you are on the site.
I have a 2012 SERGC with the 110.
I also have a 2011.5 SEUC with the 110.
I like simple chit. Two men I trust on this site (Jim, hd-dude and Steve George, Fullsac) told me that in their opinion the best tuner for my bike was the TTS Mastertune.
I paid my money, I took the chance. I could not be more pleased. I am also pleased that the man that built the TTS Mastertune is an active member of this site. When there is a question about the TTS Mastertune, we (members here) can go to Steve Cole and get an answer. I have been told that sometimes my delivery sucks and maybe the same can be said about Steve Cole's delivery but every time there is a question about his product he does his best to help. That is what's important to me.
Well that and the fact that all of the above listed people were very instrumental in our effort to get our site owner a new bike. They care about their product and they care about this site. How cool is that?  

Good luck in what you decide. I bought my first TTS Mastertune 27 months ago and unless I see facts that there is a better product available I will use the TTS Mastertune on my next bike. All of us have a passion for our bikes and want the best for them. IRISHSE you asked the question and I gave you an answer based on my experience with two 110's. And I will say again, it has been a great experience.

SBB

Thanks...My concern about this is can I get a basic map for what I've done just to improve the rideability of the bike/lean condition due to EPA regs?  I was pointed to this one by a programmer today, but have never heard of it.

http://www.fuelmotousa.com/site/thundermax.html

[hrdtail78]

I own a shop and dyno tune for a living. I have no ties with any tuning device. I tune with most of them.   On an average  2-3 times a week.  The only thing that means, and adds to the topic is: I'm not new. I have seen a lot of different combos and they all weren't good ones.

You have started all this over street tunes vs. professional dyno tune.  Now it has moved onto how a PV is the best thing going. Best feature:  screen?   I have nice displays set up. I can control heat, hold any rpm, vs kpa or throttle position.  Sample exhaust with narrow bands and broad bands.

I am just trying to help the OP and share my experience.   You are wrong in some of your above statements. I don't think you are being dishonest. Just wrong.

[Midnight Rider]

Thanks...My concern about this is can I get a basic map for what I've done just to improve the rideability of the bike/lean condition due to EPA regs?  I was pointed to this one by a programmer today, but have never heard of it.

http://www.fuelmotousa.com/site/thundermax.html

Oh, Jesus...don't bring Thundermax into this discussion.  For what I know, they would be about a 3 on a scale of 1-10.

I don't know chit about a PV, so can't comment on what they offer.  Fuelmoto is a PV dealer.  Jamie is a good person to deal with and will help you, from my personal experience.

I had a PCIII on two bikes, prior to closed loop operation on a HD bike.  I was happy with the results because I had a tuner that could work with that device.  He does NOT do a good job with the TTS, IMO, although he is a dealer.  He can make your bike run great on the TTS, but he uses a different mind set in how he operates the device.  He's "Old School".

When I decided on an exhaust and tuner system for my '11 SERGU (which I no longer own), I decided on the Fullsac header and cores for my bike, with the TTS tuner and a canned map from Hd-dude, who is the person I purchased everything from.  Not because I might have saved a buck or spent a buck if I had purchased from Fullsac...I don't know, and frankly, don't care...I spent my money with Jim (hd-dude) because I trust the guy, and KNOW for sure, he will talk to me when/if I call.  It all worked out perfectly...my bike ran great, I did the work myself.  No complaints.  I'd do the same again.

As SBB said, we have many members here that support this site in both expertise and other ways.  They respond to questions.  They explain things in ways even I can understand. I haven't had a beer with any of them, so can't comment on their personality, but from a customer service standpoint, it doesn't get any better.  That's what matters most to me.

[Fatboy]

 Reading through all this....I surrender.

 Anybody want to buy a great running (I think) CVO that may never ever run right in reality because I couldn't settle on the correct tuner and its capabilities for my needs which are not what I need because I need something else per everyone/anyone who has a different opinion on how and why a bike without their recomended tuner will never ever run right?

 

 

[tweeter13]

Don't get discouraged its not as bad as you think.  I haven't used most of them myself but if I asked the people I know personally that ride Harley's they have used them all between them.  They all got good results and what they were looking for.  If you buy what you want read the directions, get yourself acquainted with the product I am sure you will notice some kind of difference.  If you have a known good tuner that you are going to use local.  Ask him what he uses then.   But like I said earlier in the thread.  You are going to get a lot of different answers on this one.   


Might google each product and read what they have to say about the product as well
.the thundermax you mention earlier is a whole ECM by the way and well over 750 bucks also.   
The tts unit to me does pretty much the same thing you just flash the factory ECM instead of the thundermax ECM. 
 Not wanting to put down the One that has the screen on the handle bars, to me I think that might look funny on my bike with the GPS already on the dash.  I really don't retune my bike very often once it's done unless I change something.  Using the tts with a lap top in the saddlebag or in tour pac it's not as hard as you think.  Ride it pretty much normal for a halfhour or so.  Do some adjustments in the tables if needed.  Once you read the directions it's pretty easy.  The girlfriends bike runs fine and there are some areas that could be worked on if she decides ever to run at cruising speed 4500 rpms if I remember correctly. 

Its just a canned map and its dead on.  It made a big difference to the heat on her soft tail.  She went with some cobra pipes that she now is starting not to like the sound to much.  It's pretty loud.   Best birthday present I ever got her for me.  Lol.  But I was also looking at the thundermax for her bike as well.

I know your still just as lost as you were before you asked your question. 
I would still ask some of your friends what they have had good luck with as long as they have a twin cam with fuel injection.  See if they can show you the software and walk you through on how to use it.   


Good luck deciding.         Todd