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[Heatwave]

Reading through all this....I surrender.

 Anybody want to buy a great running (I think) CVO that may never ever run right in reality because I couldn't settle on the correct tuner and its capabilities for my needs which are not what I need because I need something else per everyone/anyone who has a different opinion on how and why a bike without their recomended tuner will never ever run right?

 

 

Now that's funny. All these tuners are effective and do the job equally well in the hands of a knowledgeable user. Some are easier to use than others.  It's admirable that others come to support a sponsor of the site with their experiences. Continue to do your homework and in the end whichever of these products you choose you will be more happy riding your bike with a new map then you are with the factory map and factory exhaust.

Good luck.

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

WOW I am out.. Good luck with your tune.. If you get down here I will tune your bike for free.

[HOGMIKE]

To the OP:
I got my first TTS in '08, had it dyno tuned in AZ and never looked back on that bike, ran just fine all over the country.
My present bikes also have the TTS and run just fine.
One of my BIO rider buddies also has the TTS on his bike, had to take it back to his tuner multiple times to get it running decent. It's curious that THIS tuner is running everything open loop. 
Another member here is running an old PV on his bike, he has no intention of changing anything, works for him!
IMHO there are good tuners and bad, no matter what device you are using.
You pays your money and takes your chances.
At least you can  get good feedback here, and make educated decisions.
 

[Steve Cole]

I always tell the truth. If I'm mistaken on a particularly topic I will gladly stand corrected. The last version of SEPST I used did not include timing reduction before autotuning. I was not aware that it had since been upgraded to include that methodology. I'm glad to hear they now have it since I still own SEPST but haven't upgraded the software in quite awhile since I've been using PV. Now I will update my SEPST software.

How can you say that your telling the truth when you will not or did not do the research. The SESPT add Smarttune in late 2010 and from the first time it was released (Smarttune)it has retarded the timing 4 degrees, they have made changes over the years since then but it has always retarded the timing 4 degrees. You made claims that you personally had use the SESPT many times in 2012 but you clearly did not or do not understand how it works yet you claim you do.

Nothing else I've said has been incorrect. Not trueBoth SEPST and PV do not place restrictions on the ECM requiring that the map on the ECM be wiped out if accessed by software other than the original tuning software. Only TTS has this limitation. Both TTS and SEPST require a laptop for any type of tuning whether its auto or manual. TTS has the added disadvantage of requiring that the laptop be strapped to the bike in order to datalog for V-tuning purposes. Smarttuning with SEPST requires storing riding data on a key which then must be disconnected from the bike, connected to a laptop, downloaded, Smarttuned, uploaded to the key, then reconnected to the bike and flashed from the key to the ECM.

Please tell us all how you transfer a calibration into the PV unit, how the PV is updated or how you use the PV software without a laptop or PC. Also if no laptop is necessary why does every PV come with an instruction sheet that says the following:

NOTICE!

You must determine which Windows version operating system you are running before installing the PowerVision Software.

Each and every Power Vision comes with a CD and instructions that tell you the need for a Windows based PC.

These are absolute facts.Along with all the ones you happened to leave out

The PV absolutely does NOT require a laptop for basic autotuning which uses the stock O2 sensors. It does NOT need to be disconnected from the bike. The user can autotune with PV without ever leaving the seat of the bike. Autotuning is included in the price of the PV along with a full library of maps a display unit for mounting on the handlebar and WINPV software for more extensive tuning on a laptop if the user wants to.

These too are some of thealso absolute facts.

Let's avoid disparaging remarks about who's telling the truth and who's not. It's unnecessary. If an opinion needs to be corrected or a fact is mistated let's assume its an "honest" mistake and correct the record.

And for the record, it might be helpful if posters were willing to share in full transparency if they have an economic interest in any of these products. I do not.

If an honest mistake is made then so be it, We all have made them and I am sure we will all make them in the future but when you continue to make false and misleading claims after several people have informed you of it, it is no longer and honest mistake IMHO. This isn't the first time this very conversation has come up and you have made your comments and you have been told your wrong by several other posters. Yet you come back again and make the same claims over with no corrections in another thread. As for full transparency I guess I should change my screen name and hide behind one like heatwave or the likes.

You like your PV and I for one am glad your happy with it but how about you do the research before you post things as facts over and over when they are not and you have been made aware they are not. PV has done nothing that others were not doing before them and if you want to know where it really came from  http://www.drewtech.com/enthusiast/index.html

To the OP I am sorry your post got destroyed but sometimes enough is enough and something has to be done to straighten things out. Do not give up just review what your goals are and understand that many things typed on the Internet are way more opinion than they are fact.

[IRISHSE]

Oh, Jesus...don't bring Thundermax into this discussion.  For what I know, they would be about a 3 on a scale of 1-10.

I don't know chit about a PV, so can't comment on what they offer.  Fuelmoto is a PV dealer.  Jamie is a good person to deal with and will help you, from my personal experience.

I had a PCIII on two bikes, prior to closed loop operation on a HD bike.  I was happy with the results because I had a tuner that could work with that device.  He does NOT do a good job with the TTS, IMO, although he is a dealer.  He can make your bike run great on the TTS, but he uses a different mind set in how he operates the device.  He's "Old School".

When I decided on an exhaust and tuner system for my '11 SERGU (which I no longer own), I decided on the Fullsac header and cores for my bike, with the TTS tuner and a canned map from Hd-dude, who is the person I purchased everything from.  Not because I might have saved a buck or spent a buck if I had purchased from Fullsac...I don't know, and frankly, don't care...I spent my money with Jim (hd-dude) because I trust the guy, and KNOW for sure, he will talk to me when/if I call.  It all worked out perfectly...my bike ran great, I did the work myself.  No complaints.  I'd do the same again.

As SBB said, we have many members here that support this site in both expertise and other ways.  They respond to questions.  They explain things in ways even I can understand. I haven't had a beer with any of them, so can't comment on their personality, but from a customer service standpoint, it doesn't get any better.  That's what matters most to me.

Makes sense why I've never heard of it.  Beyond frustrated at this point.  Just wanted a simple choice

[Heatwave]

I just completed  2 PV Basic autotunes this morning. Suggesting that a laptop is required is simply false. No laptop was needed and none was used during the ENTIRE Autotuning process that created a new map that is now running on my bike. I never left the saddle of the bike during the entire process and the Powervision never left the handlebar.

The PowerVision only needs a laptop to update firmware and to add new maps as they are released. A laptop is NEVER needed to conduct basic autotuning on a PV. OTOH any tuning effort with TTS Vtune or SEPST Smarttune absolutely requires a laptop each and every time and that cannot be refuted. Those are facts that cannot be refuted no matter how much someone has a vested interest in suggesting otherwise.

[SBB]

Makes sense why I've never heard of it.  Beyond frustrated at this point.  Just wanted a simple choice

I think your choices have been made clear in this thread.
You just need to pick one.
If your not sure what you want to do then call Steve George at Fullsac or hd-dude at Metal Dragon.
I'm sure I know they can take care of your concern.

heat wave, give it up, your acting like a kid shouting, "Look at me, look at me."
IRISHSE has a question, help him if you want to, but please stop wearing him and the rest of us out doing so.

 

SBB

[Fired00d]

I just completed  2 PV Basic autotunes this morning. Suggesting that a laptop is required is simply false. No laptop was needed and none was used during the ENTIRE Autotuning process that created a new map that is now running on my bike. I never left the saddle of the bike during the entire process and the Powervision never left the handlebar.

The PowerVision only needs a laptop to update firmware and to add new maps as they are released. A laptop is NEVER needed to conduct basic autotuning on a PV. OTOH any tuning effort with TTS Vtune or SEPST Smarttune absolutely requires a laptop each and every time and that cannot be refuted. Those are facts that cannot be refuted no matter how much someone has a vested interest in suggesting otherwise.

Not to like it appears this thread has been in (ie: it is well known that Steve Cole is the product developer for TTS Mastertune and Heatwave is a diehard PV user).....

But, I'm just a when it comes to all this tuning stuff... but I thought once the bike is "properly" tuned unless you change something it is "properly" tuned. Why the hell would you need to keep running "tuning/autotuning" sessions once this is done.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[SBB]

Not to like it appears this thread has been in (ie: it is well known that Steve Cole is the product developer for TTS Mastertune and Heatwave is a diehard PV user).....

But, I'm just a when it comes to all this tuning stuff... but I thought once the bike is "properly" tuned unless you change something it is "properly" tuned. Why the hell would you need to keep running "tuning/autotuning" sessions once this is done.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

d00d

I'm with you buddy.
Both of my 110's use that evil TTS Mastertune.
The maps were downloaded when they were new and haven't been touched again.
Some people just can't leave things alone.
Like I said originally, I like simple chit, no need to mess with a good tune.
I'm at 104/118 and get an average of 45 to 50 mpg.
I'd rather ride than tune.

SBB

[110tHunDer]

I think your choices have been made clear in this thread.
You just need to pick one.
If your not sure what you want to do then call Steve George at Fullsac or hd-dude at Metal Dragon.
I'm sure I know they can take care of your concern.

heat wave, give it up, your acting like a kid shouting, "Look at me, look at me."
IRISHSE has a question, help him if you want to, but please stop wearing him and the rest of us out doing so.

 

SBB

   I wouldn't want a Power Vision if you gave it to me at this point. 

[Heatwave]

I think your choices have been made clear in this thread.
You just need to pick one.
If your not sure what you want to do then call Steve George at Fullsac or hd-dude at Metal Dragon.
I'm sure I know they can take care of your concern.

heat wave, give it up, your acting like a kid shouting, "Look at me, look at me."
IRISHSE has a question, help him if you want to, but please stop wearing him and the rest of us out doing so.

 

SBB

Actually I was simply sharing the facts as I saw them. I don't take kindly to those suggesting I'm lying. I tried to give the OP my views on why a product other than the one so strongly supported by those with a commercial interest that might be worthy of consideration given the original post. For that I was attacked by those that don't want their commercial interests impacted.

To be frank, I really didn't transfer from SEPST to PV for autotuning. Autotuning is alot easier on the PV than with SEPST but I'm handy with a laptop and have no issue using a laptop for autotuning. For others it might be an issue.

I went from the SEPST to the PV for 2 reasons that may or may not be of interest to the OP in his decision-making.

1) I wanted to have additional maps stored on the bike. Why? Because doing long distant riding where I found myself with different fuel grades, different temps and sometimes different weight on the bike. With the PV I'm able to create new maps using autotuning and store a map for 89oct and 93oct for whenever I get caught with low grade fuel. I also wanted to have a "Hot temp" map and a "Cold Temp" map. Lastly I created maps that were better suited for 2-up riding with a full load of luggage in addition to a map for riding by myself. Having 6 maps on the PV whenever and wherever I was riding (sometimes hundreds of miles from home) made a difference to me. To others it may be irrelevant.

2) I liked the idea of having the additional gauges. I have the PV gauge package setup so I can see Engine temp which is color coded. The ET #s stay blue below 180 which reminds me to take it easy until the engine temp is up. The ET #s are green between 180 & 280 and then change to red when the ET goes above 280. I'm also able to see instant fuel economy and trip fuel economy. I have a field that shows which gear I'm in which can be handy at times. I also have voltage that changes colors to be sure my regulator is working as it should (alot easier to read than the volt meter gauge on the dash). The pic below shows the bike running 1200rpms because ET is cold, in neutral, 0mpg standing still, 38mpg avg and 14 volts. Pretty handy from my perspective and there's over 30 additional operating parameters I could choose from and dozens of gauge arrangements from a single to 4 cluster to 6 cluster (what you see). Even analog dial gauges if that's what the user prefers.

Are these critical factors? To some maybe. To others just looking to ride without the additional information or extra maps, they will be as well suited and perhaps better suited with a tool like TTS or SEPST. For others they might find these additional benefits of interest. I thought that was the OP's "ask" and I tried to share what I knew.

[IRISHSE]

d00d

I'm with you buddy.
Both of my 110's use that evil TTS Mastertune.
The maps were downloaded when they were new and haven't been touched again.
Some people just can't leave things alone.
Like I said originally, I like simple chit, no need to mess with a good tune.
I'm at 104/118 and get an average of 45 to 50 mpg.
I'd rather ride than tune.

SBB

I like those #'s what else did you do to your bike?  I don't want to mess with pipes, slip ons, intakes I just want to richen the bike up and tune it to optimum efficiency and ride it.

[hrdtail78]

Save yourself alot of wasted money. Paying for a dyno with a simple exhaust change is an utter and complete waste of $. Get a Powervision, get a custom map that comes free with it, autotune using the Powervision and there's not a single chance that any professional tuner will tune the stock motor any better. PERIOD.  http://www.fuelmotousa.com/site/power-vision.html

After more than 10 years of efi tuning, at least a half dozen professional dyno tunes on various bikes, extensive experience with SEPST tuner and extensive experience tuning my 110 with the Powervision, I can assure you there's no tuner on the market that can tune a bike across the entire rpm and KPa range using the stock 02 sensors other than the DynoJet Powervision. The OP is looking for a simple and economical way to tune a simple exhaust change with a CAT removed.

Those suggesting he should pay for a professional dynotune are unfortunately providing very poor advice. There's simply no professional tune that will perform any better on an almost completely stock bike than a solid custom map combined with the PowerVision autotuning capability.

[/color]

Take these statements in red above.  I have to wonder how six different maps carried around in the PV is helpful?   And these are the statements that got me interested in this thread.  A bike in stock form can bebifit from a pro dyno tune.  How are you mapping the entire rpm range?  Say, 5000/100kpa?  You are not doing it on the street with just a Vision.  The stock ECM will not allow it.  I understand you like to map your VE's while riding without a laptop or computer.  I do not call that auto tuning.  I call that mapping VE's.  While it is an important step in a good tuned bike.  It is not tuned.  I didn't call you dishonest.  Didn't attack you at all.  You told me I gave poor advice and was subject.  Have you made a baseline pull with a stock 110?  Changed slip-ons and made pull?  Thrown different slip-ons on?  Remove cat, and made pulls?  How much do VE change?  How much more timing can it take?  Does the bike rev faster?  Exstensive tuning with vision on a 110?  What excatly is your definition of that?  Same bike? Different bikes with different cams?  Different combo's, headwork, prochargers?......

[Heatwave]

I'll give you the best answers I can in red below. Hopefully they are helpful.

[/color]

Take these statements in red above.  I have to wonder how six different maps carried around in the PV is helpful? For many riders, 6 maps generally isn't needed. But I can tell you that I find having various maps for different situations of significant benefit. I tried to explain those benefits in my earlier message. ie different fuel grades, 2up vs single rider, hot weather vs cold weather  

And these are the statements that got me interested in this thread.  A bike in stock form can bebifit from a pro dyno tune.  I never suggested a bike in stock form would benefit from a pro-dyno tune. In fact I suggested just the opposite. That it was a waste of $ given the autotuning options on the market.

How are you mapping the entire rpm range?  Say, 5000/100kpa?  You are not doing it on the street with just a Vision.  The stock ECM will not allow it. Yes it will. When you use the PV's autotuning, it reduces the original map's spark advance by 4 degrees. It then raises the AFR to "closed loop" across the entire map. Now when the rider rides, there's a screen on the PV that shows the datalog in a graphic matrix by rpm and KPa. It's not necessary to read the individual cells however they change color when enough data has been collected for the PV to adjust the VE in that cell. As you gather enough data from riding, the data logger visually shows you that more of the map has been colored in to alert you that when you export the data you will have new VEs in that region of the map. Its very helpful and can usually be determined just by seeing how much of the map is colored in. Because the entire map is now closed loop and "protected" by the lower spark advance, the O2 sensors capable of providing data to the PV's autotuning algorithyms. When autotuning, I frequently (as in nearly every tuning run) will have new "tuned cells" upto 100KPa and 6000rpms.

 I understand you like to map your VE's while riding without a laptop or computer.  I do not call that auto tuning.  I call that mapping VE's.  While it is an important step in a good tuned bike.  It is not tuned. I tend to agree with you here. Even the SESPST, TTS and PV call it "Autotuning or Smarttuning or V-Tuning" it really is only tuning the VEs. Which are important but not everything that needs to be adjusted in a good tune. That's exactly why I've said numerous times that its important to start with a map that is closely matched to your build. If one doesn't exist you're better off getting a pro-dyno tuning. The PV has a very extensive map library built by DynoJet which is free. If you buy the PV from Fuelmoto it will come with on-line & email support which includes an even larger library of custom maps. If you're are starting with a well-matched custom map for your bike, then autotuning VEs will get you a damn good map that has great "step-off", smooth throttle control and VEs that are very nicely matched to the owner's riding style and the exact needs of that specific engine.

  I didn't call you dishonest.  Didn't attack you at all.  You told me I gave poor advice and was subject.  Actually I wasn't referring to you in any of my comments.

Have you made a baseline pull with a stock 110?  Yes. I'd be happy to share the baseline dyno on my 2010 SEUC. In stock form after 500miles, my bike was dynoed at 77hp and 100ftlbs. This is very consistent (although a little lower than others).

Changed slip-ons and made pull?  I never changed to slip-ons so I can't speak to them. I have run with the stock exhaust  with the cat removed and cores swapped to Fullsac 2.25. They were a nice improvement but not enough for me. I upgraded again to a D&D Fat (2:1 + ghost) with wrapped Performance baffles. Absolutely thrilled with the jump in performance.

Thrown different slip-ons on?  No

Remove cat, and made pulls?  I did  have a dynotune with the fullsacs and cat removed. I'd have to track it down.

How much do VE change?  Initially VEs can change pretty significantly (9 or 10 clicks) but after 4-8 autotunes with the PV starting with a single map, they generally get pretty small (1-2 clicks) at which point I consider that map good for those conditions (weight, fuel, ambient temp).

How much more timing can it take?  I've pushed my timing about as far as I can go. I'd gladly share my current spark table if others are interested. I routinely check for knock with the knock sensor using a tool called the Log tuner which is also provided free with the PV. It requires a laptop however I doubt the avg guy is going to want to get into this level of detail, although the extra applications are provided free if the user is interested.

Does the bike rev faster? If you mean revlimiter, I have it set to 6250. With my particular cam (Woods 408-6) it's a high lift cam and my dyno pulls have my hp pulling all the way to my rev limiter. As a result of my most recent autotuning, I now can pull strongly from 2200 to 6000. My last dyno had me at over 100ftlbs at 2500rpms which I consider excellent.

 Exstensive tuning with vision on a 110?  What excatly is your definition of that?  Meaning I've made MANY autotuning runs changing the displacement and other parameters to experiment with the PV autotuning capabilities.

Same bike? Yes

Different bikes with different cams?  No

Different combo's, headwork, prochargers?...... No since the PV autotuner was only released in November of last year.

[Fired00d]

 I wouldn't want a Power Vision if you gave it to me at this point.  

Agreed!!! If I had any commercial interest in that product from a marketing standpoint I know who I wouldn't want promoting it..... just sayin'.

BTW... I don't use either (so it's not confused as I have an "interest" in either product)... I've got an ole bike for an ole fart that can't use the newer technology.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d