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[porthole]

This is an "if" you have to buy anyway - go with stock or something like S&S rollers?

Because of my valve damage I have to get new rockers. Haven't checked pricing yet but figure the S&S's rollers are about $450, S&S non roller about $200.
Factory - don't know yet.

Is adding $2-250 to the cost any benefit for a "mild" engine?

New cams will most likely be S&S 570's

Are there any negatives, other then cost for roller's, e.g. noise etc?

[hd-dude]

Rollers are a bit noisier, and not really needed in my opinion for a mild build.

[Thermodyne]

With that cam you really don't need rollers.  The roller is just another point of failure that you can avoid.  $200 will buy a whole set of rockers and shafts, or you could ask around and pick up a set of used ones.  They fit all the way back to the first EVO, so there are lots of used ones to be had.

Personally IIWY, I'd spend my money on having them dressed down and fitted for a .001 fit with a .100 shim.  I might even go with the SE mounts.

[Doc 1]

You should run Roller Rockers with any cam that has a .550 or higher lift unless the geometry has been altered to the cam. The reason for roller rockers is to eliminate any side loads on the valve stem to prolong the valve train life......if the geometry has been altered for the cams you're running the side load is minimized.
Can you get away with out either of these options? Sure, however the valve seals, valve guides, and valve stems will wear out MUCH faster than they should.
Doc

[porthole]

however the valve seals, valve guides, and valve stems will wear out MUCH faster than they should.

wear faster with which option, standard non rollers?

[sadunbar]

I have over 15K on my 120r with T Man 662-1 cams on stock rocker arms (non roller).  At this winter's inspection there is no sign of wear on either the valve stems or rocker arm contact points,  rocker arm bushings or rocker arm shafts.    I agree with previous comments by hd-dude and Thermodyne..   

[Doc 1]

I have over 15K on my 120r with T Man 662-1 cams on stock rocker arms (non roller).  At this winter's inspection there is no sign of wear on either the valve stems or rocker arm contact points,  rocker arm bushings or rocker arm shafts.    I agree with previous comments by hd-dude and Thermodyne..  

LOL....tell me what are the specs for valve guide to valve stem.....and do you have the ''GO/NO GO Gauge's'' and mic's that it takes to inspect these clearances correctly, or is your eye that calibrated? Just because it hasn't fallen apart doesn't mean it's right.........
Run what you will, I really don't care, however as an engine builder I'm just saying valve geometry is VERY important for valve life and for performance.
Doc

[porthole]

This is what I want to avoid.

[Cvostu]

Duane,,,   I would ask John Sachs.  I'm sure he could answer that question and a whole lot more. 

[porthole]

Duane,,,   I would ask John Sachs.  I'm sure he could answer that question and a whole lot more. 

I happened to have talked to him almost 2 hours last night and never thought to ask 

[hd-dude]

What cam were you running?

[sadunbar]

LOL....tell me what are the specs for valve guide to valve stem.....and do you have the ''GO/NO GO Gauge's'' and mic's that it takes to inspect these clearances correctly, or is your eye that calibrated? Just because it hasn't fallen apart doesn't mean it's right.........
Run what you will, I really don't care, however as an engine builder I'm just saying valve geometry is VERY important for valve life and for performance.
Doc

I'll answer your question professionally, even though you didn't state it as such...

New, the intake guide/valve stem clearances on my motor were .0014 and .0013.  New, the exhaust guide/valve stem clearance was .0019 and .0021.  
After 15k miles, at there loosest points, the intake guide/valve stem clearances are .0017 and .0019.  The exhaust guide/valve stem clearances are .0025 and .0027.  I didn't use go/no gauges, I used calibrated bore gages, which I have owned and used for many, many years.  The valve stem faces have no visible wear.  The rocker arm contact points have minimal visible wear.  The rocker arm bores have approx. .0003 to .0005 out of round wear.  The rocker arm shafts show no visible or measureable wear.  I am satisified with the performance of the stock rocker arms in this motor.

I use aftermarket and improved engine components where I believe them to be necessary and useful.  Although this motor is basically a stock 120r motor, I run T Man cams, I run a three stage Thayer oil pump, I run a Axtell oil bypass system, and I run Zippers Cam Chain tensioners.  I prefer S&S lifters, although at the present time, I am trying the latest SE lifters.  

The last two twin cam motors I built from the bottom up utilized Wes Brown components and Dave Mackie components.  Both of these (110) motors produced in excess of 125/125 and proved very reliable (with the exception of the lifters requiring regular attention).

And not that it's really important, but I built Divisional and National Championship winning V-8 road racing motors for over 30 years, and over the years provided research and development services for some of the top camshaft and cylinder head suppliers of the day, through sponsorship arrangements.  Although I retired from this activity over 10 years ago, I have retained all the necessary tools to build and maintain motors.

And...reply if you wish, but I'm not going to debate anything with you.  

[Black Diamond]

Great answer Scott!  Class as always!

JW

[tweeter13]

Before this thread gets to heated.  I respect doc and sadunbar very much.  Doc did not say you had to use rollers but he would.  Sadunbar said you don't have to cause he don't.


Pros

1) rollers cost more, wont hurt anything if you do use them.

2) stock cheaper

3) less friction with rollers so some increase in power possible. 

Cons

1) if one of the rollers breaks off tears up valve (would need to find,out how often this happens) I haven't heard of it very much on a mild build.  But I haven't done it.   That would be another question. 

2) have the same results to the valve as the last time from your pictures. 

3) rollers make more noise they say.  Personally I don't think I could tell you two bikes setting next to each other running which one would have them and not with the same cam.   I just not sure until I would hear on right in font of me to know to give honest answer there.


If it were me I would just spend the extra money for the roller rockers but that's me.  Your in there already and usually that's one of the next steps people do anyhow.  I don't seem to read about failures of this type.  I would be most concerned about lifters, compensating sprockets and such. 

Plus it's cool to tell your buddies you put roller rockers on it.  They won't have any idea what your talking about but they heard about them.    Lol.    Remember have a wonderful weekend.


I do respect both of these guys opinions though. 
Todd.

[HOGMIKE]

This is an "if" you have to buy anyway - go with stock or something like S&S rollers?

Because of my valve damage I have to get new rockers. Haven't checked pricing yet but figure the S&S's rollers are about $450, S&S non roller about $200.
Factory - don't know yet.

Is adding 2-250& to the cost any benefit for a "mild" engine?

New cams will most likely be S&S 570's

Are there any negatives, other then cost for roiler's, e.g. noise etc?

I went with the rollers in my 113 crate  mostly on recommendation from S&S because of a higher lift cam.
The SS heads don't require them and the motor is fairly quiet (exhaust drowns out any mechanical noise)!
Got about 60k on this setup with no issues.
This is a bagger, solo bike. My "hot rod" bike.
JMHO