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[Twolanerider]

Do either of those cars have air-cooled engines, or crankshafts designed to make a certain exhaust noise?

Guys on Goldwings are going 2-300,000 miles without a rebuild, but the Harley faithful would never accept a modern engine like that.

Then, after more bikes than I can count over more years than I care to admit, I'm not one of the faithful.  If the Buddha rode by with his chubby butt happily jiggling to a bike's vibration and asked, "hey Don (he's the Buddha, he'd know my name), would you be cool if the engine sounded a little different but for that it ran great and was greatly reliable?"

Hells bells (pardon my language Buddha), of course I would.  The newer riders don't know the particulars of a "sound."  They may know the general tones they expect.  But a nice deep rumble will get them by.  And the older riders who have had to deal with repetitive expensive failures would (mostly) trade that annoyance and expense if modernity raised its head. 

Harley sales didn't go in the (comparative) dumper during the AMF days because they lost the sound.  The company nearly went under because they were selling crap.  Popular nostalgia and mythology notwithstanding it's not all about the potato potato potato.  We could appreciate something other than a root vegetable for the cost of these machines.

[Soot]

I think the whole point to this discussion has been a wake-up call for me and certainly for others if they haven' t reached that conclusion yet. I will say one thing though; I think that it's a bit misleading that the propaganda surrounding the CVO perpetuates the myth that it is the flagship or Cadillac if you will in the Harley Fleet. Had I been afforded the opportunity to test drive one for a couple of hours (not an unreasonable request considering the amount of cash outlay) I likely would have thought twice before jumping in so quickly. I'm not pissed at MOCO so much as I am at myself for not exercising due diligence.

05 Train makes some good points but I don't buy that thousands upon thousands of happy motoring rides have left their bikes stock and like Jerry or TwoLane pointed out, those that ride serious miles; want their bike to be comfortable or at least not cause them unnecessary pain as a result of poor ergonomics. Great for after-market supplier; dealers; and the MOCO but not so good in terms of buyer satisfaction and customer relations. Would I ever buy another CVO.........probably- but not without trying it out first. That's for damn sure (which in all likelihood would probably mean a pre-owned one).

Thanks to all who chimed in and offered something. That's how we learn!

Soot

[miker]

Kinda hard to sit on it in the showroom for 4 hours! 

Just me now, but I get sore and tired if the thing is was built of of silk riding on cotton candy ...just me.

Every bike I have had, I have had to futz around with...My truck has seat that are adjustable, steering too..

Some folks are a lot tougher than me...I do like the hydralic clutch/bigger motor/cruise/abs/yadayadayada/and enough chrome for me with these SE bikes...

Hang in there and ride the snot out of it.........in good health! Slainte! 

[dlaws01]

This has been very interesting with many well taken points of view from all sides. I like these kinds of threads.  The one thing that most of us can agree on is that the MOCO has been very successful at maintaining a loyal customer base during their history.  Will they be able to maintain it as new competition steps into the picture, Polaris, Indian, etc.?  It's easy to keep the lion's share of the market when there is little or no other options to choose from.  There will always be those that will defend H-D regardless of the quality of the products they sell. Heck, I know some people that would buy a dried up dog turd if it had the bar and shield logo on it.  I do believe that as H-D targets a younger, hipper crowd as we older farts start to hang up our "leathers", they will have to address the reality that customer loyalty isn't a given anymore.  As for the sound, yes it is a factor for many but have you ever heard a Ducati Diavel with aftermarket pipes on it?  Also, I have yet to hear any new H-D 110ci have the potato, potato, potato note that some have reference like the bike's from the 70's. However, I have enjoyed this thread!  

[miker]

Think HD stuff is expensive, try offshore fishing.........whooot, that'll clean your wallet out fast, don't ask...

[Twolanerider]

Think HD stuff is expensive, try offshore fishing.........whooot, that'll clean your wallet out fast, don't ask...

If use Sportster parts as bait what should a guy catch?

[miker]

Anything from young hipster to fresh divorcee to oldster re-rider or any easy sale for the good salesman...anyone's game with all the different sporties out there now...specially the ones with the heavy metal flake...

[05Train]

Then, after more bikes than I can count over more years than I care to admit, I'm not one of the faithful.  If the Buddha rode by with his chubby butt happily jiggling to a bike's vibration and asked, "hey Don (he's the Buddha, he'd know my name), would you be cool if the engine sounded a little different but for that it ran great and was greatly reliable?"

Hells bells (pardon my language Buddha), of course I would.  The newer riders don't know the particulars of a "sound."  They may know the general tones they expect.  But a nice deep rumble will get them by.  And the older riders who have had to deal with repetitive expensive failures would (mostly) trade that annoyance and expense if modernity raised its head. 

Harley sales didn't go in the (comparative) dumper during the AMF days because they lost the sound.  The company nearly went under because they were selling crap.  Popular nostalgia and mythology notwithstanding it's not all about the potato potato potato.  We could appreciate something other than a root vegetable for the cost of these machines.

I don't disagree with this.  It's why I replaced my Limited with BMWs, and why I was a signature away from replacing the BMW with a Vic.  I look forward to the day that Harley starts offering a non-nostalgic touring bike.  I'd happily buy an American touring machine that sound and rode like a Goldwing.

I think the whole point to this discussion has been a wake-up call for me and certainly for others if they haven' t reached that conclusion yet. I will say one thing though; I think that it's a bit misleading that the propaganda surrounding the CVO perpetuates the myth that it is the flagship or Cadillac if you will in the Harley Fleet. Had I been afforded the opportunity to test drive one for a couple of hours (not an unreasonable request considering the amount of cash outlay) I likely would have thought twice before jumping in so quickly. I'm not pissed at MOCO so much as I am at myself for not exercising due diligence.

05 Train makes some good points but I don't buy that thousands upon thousands of happy motoring rides have left their bikes stock and like Jerry or TwoLane pointed out, those that ride serious miles; want their bike to be comfortable or at least not cause them unnecessary pain as a result of poor ergonomics. Great for after-market supplier; dealers; and the MOCO but not so good in terms of buyer satisfaction and customer relations. Would I ever buy another CVO.........probably- but not without trying it out first. That's for damn sure (which in all likelihood would probably mean a pre-owned one).

Thanks to all who chimed in and offered something. That's how we learn!

I'm always shocked when I hear that dealers don't offer long test rides.  When I bought the Beemer, I did a 3 hour test ride first.  I wouldn't buy a bike I couldn't take for a decent spin.

But remember, the ergonomics are poor to you, not overall.  Of the hundred or so guys in my regular riding group, the vast majority of them are riding on the stock seat with stock bars.  I think they're nuts, but these guys all log serious miles and are happy doing so.

Be happy that there are so many options out there.  With the factory and aftermarket stuff out there, you can literally make any Harley fit anyone......For a price.

[Twolanerider]

I'd happily buy an American touring machine that sound and rode like a Goldwing.

Unfortunately (not for me but the MoCo) I came to a somewhat similar conclusion (i.e., no more MoCo) quite some time ago.  Too great a lack of effort toward supporting end users, too much arrogance from the dealerships and too weak a product and I'd had enough.  The last new Harley I bought was the 05 and it will be the last unless and until the company shows not just an instance but a continued trend of overall improvement.  Not improvement on the P&L or with the stock report but with the end users and the equipment itself.  

If I had to get something new today it'd be a Wing.  More equipment and more well integrated equipment for less money.  It'd be a no brainer.  Fortunately, even though I work slow, I can work on my own so the existing bikes can continue to serve me well and do so economically.  

In fact might have stumbled on to something with the Road King project that got finished last year.  If one has the time to collect parts over an extended period to build their (probably second) bike its' a LOT cheaper to build a CVO-esque or better tricked out bike to your own specs and fit doing it once rather than starting with a generic bike off the flower and having the redundancies involved in then tearing it apart doing the common improvements.

[05Train]

True about building your own.  That said, there is a substantial difference in resale between an Ultra that's gussied up and a CVO Ultra.   If that's important to you. 

Though I'm very happy with my new bike, I can't count how many times I've said, "jeez, not again"!

Like when the stereo died this weekend.

[KenK]

I think the whole point to this discussion has been a wake-up call for me and certainly for others if they haven' t reached that conclusion yet. I will say one thing though; I think that it's a bit misleading that the propaganda surrounding the CVO perpetuates the myth that it is the flagship or Cadillac if you will in the Harley Fleet. Had I been afforded the opportunity to test drive one for a couple of hours (not an unreasonable request considering the amount of cash outlay) I likely would have thought twice before jumping in so quickly. I'm not pissed at MOCO so much as I am at myself for not exercising due diligence.

05 Train makes some good points but I don't buy that thousands upon thousands of happy motoring rides have left their bikes stock and like Jerry or TwoLane pointed out, those that ride serious miles; want their bike to be comfortable or at least not cause them unnecessary pain as a result of poor ergonomics. Great for after-market supplier; dealers; and the MOCO but not so good in terms of buyer satisfaction and customer relations. Would I ever buy another CVO.........probably- but not without trying it out first. That's for damn sure (which in all likelihood would probably mean a pre-owned one).

Thanks to all who chimed in and offered something. That's how we learn!

Soot

Well I glad I am not the only one that feels this way-I bought the same bike and your Spot on Soot! I would of never bought it if they let me take for a good test drive .....to me the 110 is not an upgrade -not for a cruiser -it runs to dang hot and is noisy. Do not get me wrong for a bar hopper its great -for a all day ride ...no thanks   

[Twolanerider]

True about building your own.  That said, there is a substantial difference in resale between an Ultra that's gussied up and a CVO Ultra.   If that's important to you. 

Though I'm very happy with my new bike, I can't count how many times I've said, "jeez, not again"!

Like when the stereo died this weekend.

Amen to that brother.  Annoyances, well, they just annoy the hell out of us.  And with resale pitted against MSRP and not against how much you've added the CVO bike is going to have a higher resale.  The question that leaves with many here is would they add enough of the difference in parts to justify the greater expenditure up front and just get the CVO bike.  Since many here are too damn dumb to leave the machines alone the answer often is that they're money ahead to start with the CVO platform; even if they then add more on top of that.  We're a sick bunch of people.

[grc]

I think I did a very poor job in an earlier post explaining exactly what I think H-D should do.  When I mentioned the things the auto industry did to improve comfort and ergonomics for their customers, I was just trying to illustrate the point that some manufacturer's actually think about and act on those things.  I didn't really expect Harley to offer eight way adjustable seats.  On the other hand, adjustable windshields are offered by more than one motorcycle company, so I can't understand why Harley can't do that.  And I had a Honda back in the 1980's that had individually adjustable handlebars, so I would think that even the engineering school dropouts in Milwaukee could have come up with something in the intervening thirty years if management actually cared about such things.

As for the seat issues, I have a very simple answer that Harley could use to let customers chose seats that fit them.  They currently offer Reach seats, Tallboy seats, and of course the standard seats.  So if we assume they could never figure out how to make an adjustable seat, perhaps they could offer a simple option to have the dealer install one of the three available seats at the time of delivery at no additional charge.  This would help eliminate the huge inventory of seats collecting dust in basements and garages and sheds all across the country, and would save the average Harley rider about $300-$400.  Once again, this is not a new concept, it's been used in my old industry for things like audio systems.  We offered what was called the radio prep package, whereby we built the car or truck with all the wiring and speakers installed but didn't install a head unit.  The dealerships had an inventory of all the optional choices on hand, and at the time of sale the customer could choose the radio he wanted and the dealership would just connect the wires and slip it in place.  There is absolutely no reason why a company like Harley couldn't do the same thing with something like a seat.

Anyhow, I haven't seen any evidence so far that management at Harley really cares about making things easier and less expensive for the customers.  But if they have a change of heart, and if they happen to read this post, they are welcome to use my idea.

I apologize if my many mentions of how we did it in the auto industry bothers anyone.  I just figure they are somewhat related industries, and Harley has already borrowed many components and production/marketing ideas from the auto industry, so why not look at a few of the other customer friendly things as well.

Jerry

[Fired00d]

Amen to that brother.  Annoyances, well, they just annoy the hell out of us.  And with resale pitted against MSRP and not against how much you've added the CVO bike is going to have a higher resale.  The question that leaves with many here is would they add enough of the difference in parts to justify the greater expenditure up front and just get the CVO bike.  Since many here are too damn dumb to leave the machines alone the answer often is that they're money ahead to start with the CVO platform; even if they then add more on top of that.  We're a sick bunch of people.

The sick (and anal) of us even have spreadsheets w/all accessories purchased, and maintenance done on bike. Oh... wait... I just thought of something .... my accessory spreadsheet doesn't include the price of installation of those parts that weren't done by me.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[05Train]

Couple of things....

- Adjustable bars and windscreens would bone up the look of the bike.  The Road Glide still isn't accepted by many as a "real" Harley.  Look at all the crap the V-Rod and Sporty guys get.  If I ran the company, I'd do what Triumph has done.....Maintain the nostalgia lines for the purists (though I'd dramatically simplify them; Ultra, Road King, Heritage, Custom Springer, Street Bob, Superglide....keep the Sporty's separate), and offer modern bikes for people like me, and the vast number of people who won't consider a Harley due to the old tech or the noise.

- Harley ought to have one of each model on the floor as a demo.  Everything else stays in the crate without bars, a seat, or a windshield (where applicable).  You ride the demo, then get fitted for the comfort stuff.  Your bike is bolted together with what you want. 

- I spent well over the $12,000 price difference between an FLHTK and a CVO Ultra. At the end of the day, it was nothing more special than a pimped-out Limited.

- With all that said, Harley's awfully successful doing things they way they do them.  In the process, they've done us a HUGE favor in protecting our resale value.  It was appalling the depreciation the Beemer took when I traded it in, compared to what I had to pay for a year old CVO (and I got a good deal on the bike).