Not Mike. But I pretty much see and understand MOST, not all, of what you say, James. Usually, the better the flow, the more comp, the less timing that is needed. Most of the time. I had a bike come in with this set of heads that simply need MORE timing and it is really weird about that!
The ONLY thing I can think of as to the 'why' a bike might wish to have an AFR tune instead of a 4 gas tune is closed loop. And the possibility of the tuning process being a bit easier on the bike in general. HAHA! Not by much, for sure.
It is MY opinion, and others differ with this, that since the bike comes with an AFR tune, that is the way to continue. Closed loop easily monitors the fuel quality running in the bike. Turn off closed loop, and no adjustments will be made... to the fueling. I, myself, LIKE the idea of the ECM monitoring how much fuel is needed to hit these closed loop targets... constantly. And I like that while monitoring the oxygen output, the ECM can add or subtract fuel, based on how that particular tank of fuel is burning.
Timing adjustments are made whether it is open or closed loop, using the knock retard features inside of the ECM. I am SOOOO jealous on how 4 gas can help dial in timing. The truth of the matter is most AFR tunes, when done will have timing adjustments made with guesswork. You know... this worked out OK in the past. OR... the timing will be based upon knock in the engine... run it up until knock is observed and then back it off. Well, we both know that is NOT the best method as best mean torque is not achieved in this manner. On WOT pulls, a tuner WILL adjust the timing for best power output, again using a hit or miss... 'let's add two degrees and see if I get power... or lose power. It is MY understanding that you guys can see, thru the chemistry, the beast mean values to use for the timing tables, right?
The O2s that come on a bike are there for EPA regs. But... tuning with AFR O2s is NOT for EPA regs, got that? HAHA! It is also my opinion that 4 gas is more related to how a bike can hit EPA regs, than performance. You guys alter those parameters for performance just like we, AFR tuners, manipulate our O2 reading for performance. NASCAR, F1, etc all run AFR tunes and those cars have O2 sensors on board to run closed loop of a sort. The driver can dial fuel on board using AFR O2s. Cannot do THAT with a 4 gas. Can 4 gas do a 2200to 6500 sweep and gather the data? I'm curious about this, BTW.
There are MANY ways around the barn. WE are all seemingly married to various tuning techniques. That's cool, to me. More to learn and absorb.
Oh, I have questions back. You can teach US!
I know when you say you tune with a TTS, what you mean is you use that tool to input VEs you have determined ... not using the TTS functions. You, using a 4 gas, do not use v-tune or anything close. So, do you have software that allows the 4-gas to determine the VEs? Do you manually play with the VEs while dialing in the bike, like I do for WOT? Ya know... pen and paper? HOW do you get the information from the 4 gas unit turned into a VE number? When using a TTS, etc. WHat functions of the tuner do you use, while using the 4 gas? Do you still use things like the cam tools? I have found that cam tool very helpful in making the bike idle better and have way ass better 'blippage'
We AFR guys do things a couple different ways. We can use the narrow bands on a late model bike and use a TTS; PV; or SEPST and the software of those programs will automatically alter the VEs themselves through the software, and we simply shoot the map with the new VEs back into the bike. Or, we can use 'wide bands' and tune in this manner, too.
There are a couple of programs that sniff, using wide bands, and then the software will manipulate the data and... poof... there are our VE targets. We then simply input those VEs into the TTS, etc. There is nowadays software to make everything line up, cell wise so that a simply copy paste is all thats needed to input the new VE data. Twin SCan comes to mind, it is not a tuner, but it is a data gathering device. I can gather data using Twin Scan and wash it thru Franks' MyTune and poof, the data will then match whatever VE cell layout with the new VEs. Direct link is like a Twin Scan and a tuner all rolled into one. Sniffs out the data, and determines the new VEs right now to enter into the bike, it makes a new map, just like the other automated devises. Shoot that new map into the bike, rinse and repeat, ya know, right? HAHA!
Then, one could use a PV with a wide band controller, and use the NBs to sniff the low, closed loop areas, and then use the same PV with the WBos and sniff the open loop areas. Kind of a hybrid between the two different AFR systems.
Lastly, using the Dyno sniffer or having an O2 hooked into the actual dyno software... when we do a power pull, the dyno will plot what the readings are on a line graph broke out by RPM, we then take this data, and having like TTS VE screen up on the other half of the monitor, we use a keyboard and lower or raise the VEs. This takes a few pulls to dial things in with this method. What we do this for is to dial WOT to an area say from 13.5 to 12.5 AFR. On some DJ sheets, you can see the AFR line on the bottom of the graph. That fuel line should be relatively straight at the target. I tend to set my target at 13.2 AFR. Then the object of this is to do any number of pulls, while altering the VEs in the 100% column until that fuel line is smooth across. And... it will never be completely a straight line.
I REALLY wish to know how you get to the correct VEs. Sweep? Step? Software? Manually? I have NO clue about any of this. And, finally, we can ask each other crap without a dog pile happening. GREAT!
Author
Topic: Who is the best dyno technician with the TTS Mastertuner in the Midwest? (Read 23372 times)