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[whittlebeast]

Just simply go do a  BIG generic o2 data logs on a couple of these bike and let's all see how they do.

Andy

[roger28310]

the reason will be simple, too.  The car market.  If this was ONLY about bikes?  No one would care and pat Steve on the back.  But cars?  Now there is THE market, and what happens if this works for bikes?  Then it will work for cars, too.  ANd then everything changes.

This has already been tried in the street car market, circa mid 2000s. The street performance car guys went down this path already and have returned to wide bands. The NB 02 voltage line of thought has already been proven to not be a viable option. TTS may have even been involved with it back then. Check out the corvette and diesel forums. TTS used to be somewhat of a player in those markets, bit not any more. Seems like all of the street performance tuning systems are wide band based. My Porsche even has wide band sensors in it.

[mayor]

Here is THE deal.  Steve has the product done.  It will be released.  It works.

Now, what I feel Bob has been trying to do is get folks involved that are not so closely attached to TTS to run some 'experiments'.  The true reason for these experiments is NO ONE will believe that one can use NB O2s to gather WOT info, the same as we now use WBs.  The idea here is for some folks to change their minds, from looking at data, that.... hmmmmmm... those damn narrow bands CAN be used in this manner.

not summarizing this up front is why I think this thread, and others that were of the same topic, has gone off subject and on tangents.  The direction in which this was going was obvious in the very beginning and everyone that could participate with data knew this, so why not state the obvious and let the discussion move forward without the false pretenses.  The folks that don’t believe that this is possible or the folks that don’t want to participate due to who this is associated could have been weeded out earlier.  The amount of clutter would have been eliminated as well, since a huge amount of posts were made for nothing more than to have the true intent posted.  In the end, lots of time and effort was lost due to not being clear with the intent. 

Here is what you are missing Mike...  this is done. This is software driven.  A bike owner will NOT have to manually alter VEs, like with a sweep, it does it automatically, just like Timing Assist does and just like the VEs are done... automated software.

I have believed this to be the case from the beginning.  If you go back and read this thread, you will see many times where I am asking about this or stating that this needs to occur.  That was me politely allowing the obvious to be stated, but rather than someone in the know making that statement this has been ignored repeatedly.  Again, this allowed folks to infer that there were false pretenses to the thread. 

So, now that the cat that we all knew was there has been left out of the bag….what is the next step?  The way I see it- a DIYer needs to collect data, use the software to create a calibration that is within acceptable range according to the software (based on predetermined Vtune software criteria), and then test the end results on a dyno.  Is this where we are?  Has there been any DIYer’s choosen for the test?  I have a cam change coming up on my HD06 bike, so if a guinea pig is needed I may be willing.  That bike will end up on a dyno either way, so the only extra step to me is some street tuning….which will likely happen either way as well. 

[hrdtail78]

Like I have posted before.  Back in 2005 I tuned a carb bike with a RB Racing single wire narrow band sensor and their gauge.  This was before I had a great grasp of narrow bands, broad bands, and wide bands.  I just looked at the colored LED's and tuned accordingly.  It worked great. 

....and I bet that when this new software does hit the updater.  It will be free like all the other software updates. 

[Buckeye_Tuning]

This has already been tried in the street car market, circa mid 2000s. The street performance car guys went down this path already and have returned to wide bands. The NB 02 voltage line of thought has already been proven to not be a viable option. TTS may have even been involved with it back then. Check out the corvette and diesel forums. TTS used to be somewhat of a player in those markets, bit not any more. Seems like all of the street performance tuning systems are wide band based. My Porsche even has wide band sensors in it.

NOT for fuel control... it does NOT.  The WBs are for Catalyst control.

Fake Angel

[FLTRI]

Mayor,
The OP asked a question. Hundreds of posts have been dedicated to worrying about intent.
The intent has been stated numerous times and ignored.
This is all about helping the DIYer who says they can't get a good WOT from a steeet tune.
That's it...again...no subversion tactics or conspiracy to sell product, any product, or in any way undermine the members' efforts.
Bob

[roger28310]

NOT for fuel control... it does NOT.  The WBs are for Catalyst control.

Fake Angel

No, not really. The previous owner changed and added some stuff. The wide bands in my 911 are for fuel control. Check out some of the discussions in any of the 911 forums.

[Buckeye_Tuning]

OK, I buy that since it is no longer stock.  But, does it REALLY hold fuel control any better than stock NBs did?  I mean using a dyno and sniffing, etc.  I have always wanted to run a Delphi with WBs for fuel control, but there ARE a few issues.  Cant use any sort of WB controller like innovate, etc, because the slope to rich is different than the slope to lean.  All the controllers I have found make both slopes the same. A Delphi engineer used to be on another forum, FBRR.  And it was told to me that if the slopes are the same both ways, the ECM will lose control of fuel eventually, as the AFVs will go hog wild.  I have an assortment of Innovate products and a pair on AFX stuff from NTK.  He is correct in that when I 'mimic' NBs, the slopes are identical.  Please remember, also, that a car IS different, because of the MAF, which reads the amount of air entering an engine.

I have since researched NBs, and believe for tuning, not fuel control, Steve's ideas have merit. I agree 100% that a NB can't be used for fuel control, but O2 tuning with onboard sensors is all about the AFVs anyways, so under controlled set of circumstances from the software, I am fairly confident that the MV readings COULD be used, if it is automated correctly.

A NB is WAY more robust without the pumping cell of a WB, and BOTH use the exact same Nernst cell, so.....  I am awaiting for this to be released and see what happens.

I believe that most tuners, in the beginning, will say HELL NO, (this thread is all about trying to make folks see differently), but... just as tuning with  onboard NB O2s, things will come around, eventually.

[mayor]

The OP asked a question. Hundreds of posts have been dedicated to worrying about intent.
The intent has been stated numerous times and ignored.
This is all about helping the DIYer who says they can't get a good WOT from a street tune.
That's it...again...no subversion tactics or conspiracy to sell product, any product, or in any way undermine the members' efforts.

you are missing my point.  You knew the answer to your question and the direction of which you wanted the thread to go from the beginning.  You knew that this was not only plausible, but there was also testing already being done by a particular manufacturer to support this idea.  So to ask if this was possible was a loaded question from the beginning.  Am I wrong about this?

If you read my comments, I'm not in any way giving any grief about whether this was, is, or could be a future marketing opportunity for a product.  I don't really care and I personally don't see the open development of a product to the market as a bad thing.   I made the assumption a long time ago that this topic was tied to TTS somehow, as did anyone who knows your relationship with Steve, and you seem to be the only one pretending that it wasn't (this is why I say false pretenses).  Besides, some of us have already reached the conclusion that this narrow band wide open tuning is only possible with help from a software manufacturer, so stating that there is interest from such a manufacturer for this idea only shows that this moves from plausible to possible.  I think we could have been much further along with this subject without the charades and with all the cards laid out openly on the table.  The haters are going to hate either way, but continuing to insult the intelligence to those that are willing to be open minded will eventually close minds. 

So let's get this thread back on track.  As I asked in my previous post, what's the next step?   

[roger28310]

What about the resolution that 0-1 volt offers? Although FLTRI keeps begging people to look at a post, I have not done so yet. But maybe you have and can provide some insight. Assuming a delphi tuner could tune with a narrow band to something richer than 14.2, lets say 13:1 or 13.5:1, doesn't really matter. What is the difference in voltage between a nb reading 13.2: AFR and a NB reading 14.7:1?  Is the delphi ECM able to repeatedly measure voltage differences at that very narrow range of resolution? Seems like a stretch to me. For reference, I have several high end Fluke DVMs on my bench that get calibrated regularly and I doubt their ability in a lab environment to do what some are expecting a harley delphi ecm to do.

[Hilly13]

This is how I understand it, run the bike at wot, read the voltage that the narrow bands are reporting, is it stable?, yes, what is the afr at wot while the voltage is read? Now screw up the ve tables, run the bike at wot and adjust ve tables till you get the same voltage as you had before, check the afr, its now back to that point as well, dosnt matter that the afr is out the narrow bands range, the nb's are supplying a steady voltage at a particular afr and its repeatable......at wot....yes?

[joe_lyons50023]

I would say yesish mabie. I'm guessing the whole point of this is that vtune3 will someday have this capability released to the public and that's cool. Now how about closed loop timing control that will be a huge leap but I don't think the ecm could have that capability.?

[FLTRI]

A least y'all admit you are assuming what my involvement is and nothing I have said or can say that will change your assumptions. I learned a long time ago what assumptions getcha.
What you obviously don't know is what came first...me asking the question or TTS testing it.
Try again,
Bob

[Steve Cole]

This whole thing is really kind of funny as those who have said forever that Broad Bands are accurate are now finally seeing that the way they are being use today, they are not very good. Just what I've tried to tell you all for years. IF and when someone starts to use the sensor as Bosch tells you to use it to get the proper accuracy, things would be different. So now that you can see that the results are NOT 13.x but something around a number you have to ask yourself just what is good enough. So if all that is required is +/- 0.6 AFR then does it really matter how you got there? Looking at the data in a scale that really shows what is going on I hope opens some eye's but to tell you the truth most members here could really care less. What they want is a good running bike that will not burn them up and will not get destroyed. Other than that they just want to go ride and enjoy it.

I also find it funny how some people seem to think they know more about what we are working on than we do! When we are finished with our products they get released but before that we need to understand what we are working towards. Since many have had an idea that the bikes are being tuned to a fixed number that was the target, we found we could not get to it with Broad Bands or Narrow Bands. To tell you the truth we were wondering how anyone else could. Lots of testing and research showed us the answer, they are not getting to the numbers either just more smoke and mirrors. The data posted in this very thread shows just that the numbers are really +/- 0.6 afr is what most tunes are hitting AT BEST using Broad Band Sensors. So with that answer, could we get there without the Broad Bands? So far that answer looks like yes it can be done without the Broad Bands and works just fine with the Narrow Bands. Can a dyno tuner make it better and get a few more Hp and ft lbs of torque? I'm sure they could, but for what the customers wants it appears we can do it with the stock Narrow Band sensors just fine. Once all the testing here is completed we will know better but until that's done I've had a good laugh at all the BS this very thread has brought up.

It seems to me "Let's try and twist a very simple question into something it's not"  fits it well.

[mayor]

What you obviously don't know is what came first...me asking the question or TTS testing it.

as I understand it, the idea was yours based on your previous experience in racing.  Am I wrong?