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[joe_lyons50023]

Steve you have stated the big issues with widebands but I have yet to encounter a big difference that you talk about.  I have the power vision and wide bands and I see very little of a difference of the readings when the narrowbands are at stoich and the widebands are reading the same thing within .2 of each other. I see this at idle up to wide open throttle.  I know you have prob. done a huge amount of testing on this but I havent seen this yet with the widebands in the pipe or with the external sniffer.

[mayor]

This whole thing is really kind of funny as those who have said forever that Broad Bands are accurate are now finally seeing that the way they are being use today, they are not very good.

I don't think anyone can draw that conclusion from this thread at all.  How are you reaching that conclusion?  I see it as if I am targeting 13 to 1 afr, I can use the broadband to know I'm with in reason of that with some pretty good trust in the data that I am viewing.  I in no way would want to infer that the afr data that I posted was as good as one could get as far as tune, so therefore drawing any absolute sensor tolerance range from that is not suggested either.  So far I still would choose a broad band over a narrow band for wide open tuning, so if the intent was to have people change their minds you know where I'm at.  That doesn't change the fact I am willing to continue chasing down the possibility of using narrow bands for wide open tuning to help fellows that have more limited options.

[98fxstc]

This is how I understand it, run the bike at wot, read the voltage that the narrow bands are reporting, is it stable?, yes, what is the afr at wot while the voltage is read? Now screw up the ve tables, run the bike at wot and adjust ve tables till you get the same voltage as you had before, check the afr, its now back to that point as well, dosnt matter that the afr is out the narrow bands range, the nb's are supplying a steady voltage at a particular afr and its repeatable......at wot....yes?

The question is very well put Hilly, this is my understanding as well.

Bob ??

[Buckeye_Tuning]

I don't think anyone can draw that conclusion from this thread at all.  How are you reaching that conclusion?  I see it as if I am targeting 13 to 1 afr, I can use the broadband to know I'm with in reason of that with some pretty good trust in the data that I am viewing.  I in no way would want to infer that the afr data that I posted was as good as one could get as far as tune, so therefore drawing any absolute sensor tolerance range from that is not suggested either.  So far I still would choose a broad band over a narrow band for wide open tuning, so if the intent was to have people change their minds you know where I'm at.  That doesn't change the fact I am willing to continue chasing down the possibility of using narrow bands for wide open tuning to help fellows that have more limited options.

I fully agree with this statement.  I think what we are trying to be taught is... within reason...  the WBs are within reason and maybe soon the NBs will be within reason too.  We all know that these bikes are NOT that finicky, and if our fuel lines waver almost a point at WOT, these bikes will run fine.

Roger, a Delphi will read a hundredths of a volt all day long.  And... that ability is the one and only reason that this can move forward.  Wide band controllers will read voltages in a tenth of a volt.  This is a way finer resolution, if you think about it.  There are 20 steps in reading .8 volts to 1.0 volts with a narrow band and the Delphi, and I figure a + or- of 3 or so will be more than sufficient, knowing that a whole AFR is suffcient.  If I set my fuel line to 12.8, I fully well expect the fuel line to be 12.3 to 13.3 along the way.  This is fairly easy to accomplish by sweeping the bike with the Dynojet sniffer and hand altering the VEs to get it in shape.  One can usually get it a bit better, but the reason not to go crazy is every day is different, and so will be the tune, and WOT.  We are blessed these are simple and forgiving machines when it comes to tuning.

Oh please forgive me Big Steve!  HAHA!!!

[roger28310]

This is all really interesting. Even taking out everything posted by FLTRI in this thread, there is plenty of good points being made. Will be very intresting to see how this next release works out. I hope it does everything that is being claimed here, if so, it will be a huge lead forward. The ability for a guy to tune his bike all the way to 100 KPA without a dyno would be a very good thing. Especially for the small indi shops that don't/wont ever have a dyno. Of course their is that issue of locking the ECM.

[joe_lyons50023]

I fully agree with this statement.  I think what we are trying to be taught is... within reason...  the WBs are within reason and maybe soon the NBs will be within reason too.  We all know that these bikes are NOT that finicky, and if our fuel lines waver almost a point at WOT, these bikes will run fine.

Roger, a Delphi will read a hundredths of a volt all day long.  And... that ability is the one and only reason that this can move forward.  Wide band controllers will read voltages in a tenth of a volt.  This is a way finer resolution, if you think about it.  There are 20 steps in reading .8 volts to 1.0 volts with a narrow band and the Delphi, and I figure a + or- of 3 or so will be more than sufficient, knowing that a whole AFR is suffcient.  If I set my fuel line to 12.8, I fully well expect the fuel line to be 12.3 to 13.3 along the way.  This is fairly easy to accomplish by sweeping the bike with the Dynojet sniffer and hand altering the VEs to get it in shape.  One can usually get it a bit better, but the reason not to go crazy is every day is different, and so will be the tune, and WOT.  We are blessed these are simple and forgiving machines when it comes to tuning.

Oh please forgive me Big Steve!  HAHA!!!

I think there would only be 10 steps between .8-1V because it goes in .02 increments from most of the data I have seen with the 12mm sensors but the 18mm mabie different but I think they are the same increments.?

[FLTRI]

This is how I understand it, run the bike at wot, read the voltage that the narrow bands are reporting, is it stable?, yes, what is the afr at wot while the voltage is read? Now screw up the ve tables, run the bike at wot and adjust ve tables till you get the same voltage as you had before, check the afr, its now back to that point as well, dosnt matter that the afr is out the narrow bands range, the nb's are supplying a steady voltage at a particular afr and its repeatable......at wot....yes?

Hilly,
  You clearly understand the procedure. I thought it was simple.
Thanks,
Bob

[Hilly13]

Cheers Bob   I thought so to, but after 23 pages I was starting to wonder  

[FLTRI]

Even taking out everything posted by FLTRI in this thread,...

If you take out everything I've posted there would never have been the question posed.
Now if everything you've posted was removed there would be less BS posted that's for sure.
Do you have any experience tuning bikes or you are a shill here simply to badger me?

[joe_lyons50023]

I will shill be here for you Bob

[Steve Cole]

I don't think anyone can draw that conclusion from this thread at all.  How are you reaching that conclusion?  I see it as if I am targeting 13 to 1 afr, I can use the broadband to know I'm with in reason of that with some pretty good trust in the data that I am viewing.  I in no way would want to infer that the afr data that I posted was as good as one could get as far as tune, so therefore drawing any absolute sensor tolerance range from that is not suggested either.  So far I still would choose a broad band over a narrow band for wide open tuning, so if the intent was to have people change their minds you know where I'm at.  That doesn't change the fact I am willing to continue chasing down the possibility of using narrow bands for wide open tuning to help fellows that have more limited options.

Go out and get hundreds of customers dyno data files as I have and look at the results just as I told you to do. NOT a dyno sheet with the scale set so small anything looks flat and right! As I told you before yours are right in line with about 80% of them. There are about 15% worse than yours and about 5 % better than yours. You want to use a Broad Band and believe it as accurate, that's fine but at least let people see the facts about how the manufacture of the sensor tells you to use them properly. It would really be nice if there was just one of the aftermarket company's that did use them as they were told by the manufacture of the sensor! Attached is a graph of how the absolute pressure in the exhaust pipe effects the output of the sensor at ONE fixed altitude, it changes as the altitude and temperature does too. Now if any of the aftermarket company's would use the corrections as Bosch requires you to do, it would not matter but you would need to install and absolute pressure gauge and temperature probe in the exhaust at the time the samples were being taken so the Bosch supplied corrections can be used. If you look at the 13.23 AFR data line it can and does vary from 13.59 to 13.04 just in this pressure range and that is at one fixed altitude and NO correction for temperature is applied yet! So at best you can say is your somewhere in that range but god only know where unless you follow what the manufacture tells you to do.

[cvofbme]

I will shill be here for you Bob

   

[roger28310]

You want to use a Broad Band and believe it as accurate, that's fine but at least let people see the facts about how the manufacture of the sensor tells you to use them properly. It would really be nice if there was just one of the aftermarket company's that did use them as they were told by the manufacture of the sensor!

You yourself are advocating for using narrow-band 02 sensors outside of their manufacturers spec and intended use. What you are saying then, is that you are advocating for is proper use of a narrow band sensor.

Where has any manufacturer of narrow-band 02 sensors published documents that outline using their sensors to tune to a voltage/AFR outside of their intended range?

[FLTRI]

That was why the question came up. A lot of folks who believe what they are told...by people who believe what they read or hear.
 
Bob

[Steve Cole]

You yourself are advocating for using narrow-band 02 sensors outside of their manufacturers spec and intended use. What you are saying then, is that you are advocating for is proper use of a narrow band sensor.

Where has any manufacturer of narrow-band 02 sensors published documents that outline using their sensors to tune to a voltage/AFR outside of their intended range?

What I am saying is two fold and do not try to mix them together.

That the Broad Bands are NOT being used per the manufacture and therefor you have no idea of there accuracy when being used as they are today. They are being used in the proper range but the accuracy is unknown. So you cannot say with any certainty what reading they are really giving you at any one time, other than somewhere within the specified total accuracy.

You are mistaken in saying that we are trying to use the Narrow Band sensor out of its range. We are within the operating range as published by the manufacture. The accuracy in the range we are using it is not really good but it is still within the operating range as published by the manufacture.

You are making the common mistake of trying to confuse Accuracy and Range up.

Broad Band will measure ~10 - 25 to 1 AFR
Narrow Band will measure ~12 - 17 to 1.

What accuracy is the real question that needs to be asked. Since the accepted standard is using the Broad Bands in an unknown state, can we be as good with the narrow bands? So far our testing is showing that YES we can.