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[hrdtail78]

78

All you need to do to get tuning work is hook up any TTS or PowerVision to any customer bike and send them out for an hour ride.  In about 2 min you can bring their tune up on the screen.  If it comes up as a nice tight, controlled, nearly straight line front and rear, his motor is already well tuned.  My bet is the vast majority will be a mess and you can sell them a tune.

Andy

I can do that now.  Not change programs, and plot RPM, MAP, and pulse width.  Look at a 2D line up the middle on VE's I have mapped. With DataMaster.  No hidden tables are stopping me.  How does VE NEW play in any of that.  Or the other hidden tables.  I'd say 50% of my tunes are done with other than TTS.  Yes, I see the "other" data.  Questions I have about it is?  Is VE NEW data from short term, and long term or just short term.  Does Direct Link, Powervision, DDT, create new VE's based on long term, and short term, or just short term.  Reviewing the new generated VE's tables from programs and comparing them to data is all part of going through data. 

Your missing the whole point of this thread.  For a DIY guy to tune his/her bike completely with stock narrow bands.  No programs, BB sensors and controllers, or dyno time, nothing.

[FLTRI]

My Sporty tune was a total mess and the bike was stock.  I was very disappointed with Harley.  At one point I had a set of 2-1 headers on it and the EFI was, what I felt was, intolerable.

Andy

Maybe that's why there is a need for recalibrating even brand new bikes.
BTW Harley's are not the only bikes that benefit from custom recalibration but Harley's show the most improvement due to their "quirky" design.
Bob

[whittlebeast]

For the people reading this thread and wanting to get their head around how engine tuning really works, here are a few screen shots off one of the motors I tune.  It happens to be a road race car that runs huge cams and lots of RPMs.  It is running Speed Density so all fueling is MAP and RPM based fuel corrections.  This car happens to have a Ford MAF (Mass Air Flow) that is there for data logging only at this point. The MAF has supplied a wealth of information.  I now base much of what I have learned from this motor to better tune everything I work on.

In the first shot is a basic data log showing the car coming off a slow turn in second gear.  It then goes thru a long long third gear corner that he has to feather the throttle for about 8 seconds.  The then gets to ring out the rest of third and forth gear all seen in the plot.  The right side of the plot shows him banging down thru the gears and setting up for a second gear corner one.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/tuning/RaceMotorMAPxRPM04.png

Now look at the next two plots.  In red is the MAPxRPM.  In green is the actual air flow as measured by the MAF.  Look how they are "almost" married.

The next plot down is the MAPxRPM in red compared Duty Cycle in green.  They too are fairly well in sync.

At the bottom is the AFR as measured by an Innovate LC1 in the collector.

Here are more plots showing all sorts of info.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/tuning/RaceMotorMAPxRPM00.png

http://www.ncs-stl.com/tuning/RaceMotorMAPxRPM01.png

http://www.ncs-stl.com/tuning/RaceMotorMAPxRPM02.png

http://www.ncs-stl.com/tuning/RaceMotorMAPxRPM03.png

Have fun tuning

Andy

[turboprop]

For the people reading this thread and wanting to get their head around how engine tuning really works, here are a few screen shots off one of the motors I tune.  It happens to be a road race car that runs huge cams and lots of RPMs.  It is running Speed Density so all fueling is MAP and RPM based fuel corrections.  This car happens to have a Ford MAF (Mass Air Flow) that is there for data logging only at this point. The MAF has supplied a wealth of information.  I now base much of what I have learned from this motor to better tune everything I work on.

In the first shot is a basic data log showing the car coming off a slow turn in second gear.  It then goes thru a long long third gear corner that he has to feather the throttle for about 8 seconds.  The then gets to ring out the rest of third and forth gear all seen in the plot.  The right side of the plot shows him banging down thru the gears and setting up for a second gear corner one.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/tuning/RaceMotorMAPxRPM04.png

Now look at the next two plots.  In red is the MAPxRPM.  In green is the actual air flow as measured by the MAF.  Look how they are "almost" married.

The next plot down is the MAPxRPM in red compared Duty Cycle in green.  They too are fairly well in sync.

At the bottom is the AFR as measured by an Innovate LC1 in the collector.

Here are more plots showing all sorts of info.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/tuning/RaceMotorMAPxRPM00.png

http://www.ncs-stl.com/tuning/RaceMotorMAPxRPM01.png

http://www.ncs-stl.com/tuning/RaceMotorMAPxRPM02.png

http://www.ncs-stl.com/tuning/RaceMotorMAPxRPM03.png

Have fun tuning

Andy

Andy,

I really appreciate you sharing the Megalog stuff with us.

Some friends and I are going to be at Bonneville in a few weeks for Bub week. Would love to have you stop by our pit area and take a look stuff.

[FLTRI]

Andy,
Do you have lateral g to add to the group so we can see the turns and how the driver inputs coin side with the type and speed of the turns.
Long g would be ideal to show time from brake to throttle.

I love to analyze race car data...but it really helps to have some of the basics to tie the engine, chassis, and driver inputs and reactions together.

If you have some good track data that at least has lat g for reference I would like to take a peak. It would give me an excuse to try MLV.

Bob
PS- No offense but the laps are not very consistent. Is he a novice or new to the track?

[FLTRI]

Ok, back to the OP.
Since we have had some data indicating there is a direct relationship between voltage output and actual AFR as measured at the tailpipe, we need some voltage numbers to relate to.

Somehow there needs to be a "cheat sheet" made for what voltage, as reported, to target for say 13.2 AFR for different model years.

If there is no more interest for DIYers to have a way to tune their bike @ WOT we can send this thread to the barn.

Bob

[hrdtail78]

That's great Andy. Thanks for posting up data.  Do you have anything that relates to Harley big twins?  Probably get more attention on this site.  The cars you do deal with don't share fuel from front to rear. Our beloved vtwin a do. 

If people are still following this post. Which we might have about 5-6 left.  I am sure they are more interested in a Delphi system with out MAF.  Like the ones they own.

[hrdtail78]

I tuned super charged IO550's for a couple of year in aviation.  I can also talk extensively about tuning turbo shaft helicopter engines. Did that for 10 years in the civilian world, not counting when I did it on CH-46's for Uncle Sam.

Helps me out but a huge orange in the HD apple world.

[Hilly13]

Bob, will sensor age/condition change the wot voltage by an appreciable amount?

[whittlebeast]

Bob, will sensor age/condition change the wot voltage by an appreciable amount?

That is a huge issue. 

Andy

[tweeter13]

If one wanted to learn more about this in more detail. (On both types of tuning).  Where can you take a class or get info.  Who trains people on this? 

[whittlebeast]

Andy,
Do you have lateral g to add to the group so we can see the turns and how the driver inputs coin side with the type and speed of the turns.
Long g would be ideal to show time from brake to throttle.

I love to analyze race car data...but it really helps to have some of the basics to tie the engine, chassis, and driver inputs and reactions together.

If you have some good track data that at least has lat g for reference I would like to take a peak. It would give me an excuse to try MLV.

Bob
PS- No offense but the laps are not very consistent. Is he a novice or new to the track?

How are you picking up he is not very consistent when looking at a screen shot of 1/3 of a lap?  The track he is on goes from a long straight that is on the high bank oval at about 125, has a big dip as you brake coming off the banking and then the surface gets real bumpy as you brake for a 30 MPH left.  That section of the track is all quite tough to be smooth on the loggers.  The drivers really have their hands and feet full trying to stay off the walls.  And no, he is not new to this stuff.  He is an ex SCCA national champion.  He has no significant sponsors other than his wife.

That car has a data logging dash.  I can ask if he got the logs off of it.  A different guy helps him with the chassis stuff.

Andy

[whittlebeast]

If one wanted to learn more about this in more detail. (On both types of tuning).  Where can you take a class or get info.  Who trains people on this?  

Tuning all comes down to being able to "see" the data.  You need lots of data and you have to look at the averages.  The o2s are the sanity check after all of the math is done in the ECU.  Standard narrow band 02s are wicked fast and wicked accurate at 14.7 AFR (Lambda = 1 for people that need a life outside of EFI)  They are are a mess away from 450 mv.  I personally do not trust them away from 14.7 AFR.

I learned most of what I know from hanging around the tech support guys and programmers that support high end EFI systems.  It really helps playing with lots of different systems.  Dyno operators that play with lots of different systems are golden.  Anyone that thinks their system is the hot setup and all other systems a junk should never be trusted.

I was a little shocked when I first noticed the MAPxRPM thing but soon after I started asking questions, the guys writing code for the latest engine modeling EFI systems verified that I had just proved the basis for a big chunk of what they were doing.  One of the programmers at Megasquirt looked at it a said "you just proved speed density works...... most of the time"

Fuel blending has sense been added to new Megasquirt code to help cover the other times when SD does not work so well.

Have you seen

www.ncs-stl.com/tuning

Have fun tuning

Andy

[FLTRI]

Bob, will sensor age/condition change the wot voltage by an appreciable amount?

Hilly,
First and foremost, all O2 sensors, wide, broad, or narrow band sensors degrade over time.
Second we are ONLY using the narrow band to tune WOT then returning it to its intended duty.

Will the NBO2 sensor live through all the open loop, richer areas?...of course, that's what O2 sensors do...live through open loop fueling conditions just like any other sensor in the closed loop fueling system.

That's not to say the sensor will live through way rich conditions but I can't think of any ICE that needs to run below about 12.5:1 unless turbo/supercharged run below 12:1 AFR.

Bob

[Steve Cole]

Andy

How about you point people in the right direction and not to your home page of just your idea of what it should be. IMHO in order to learn you must first understand the basics and what you post on your home page is nothing more than a bunch of misleading scatter graphs at best. There is lots of real information out there about a speed density type systems and how they work and that would be a good place to start would be to do a search on "speed density efi" and do some reading. Lots of BS to wade through but you will find some of the same things repeated over and over again and those are the ones that you need to believe. The HD system is truely very basic and follows some very basic simple rules.

No matter how much you want to multiply RPM * MAP that is no way is any representation of air flow for various engines. While it may make for pretty scatter graphs to look at and YES you can compare the same engine before and after changes to that same engine, it's still just a pretty graph.