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[hrdtail78]

Dynos have no easy way to duplicate cooling and air filter air flow as happens on the street.

Absolutely correct, but the ECM's OS does.  Doesn't it all boil down to that?

Your bike is running on the same data that is on the CAN bus.

Andy

And we are only collecting data by the means of the ECM.  The ECM is seeing a lot more than what we can collect.

[whittlebeast]

Absolutely correct, but the ECM's OS does.  Doesn't it all boil down to that?

The IATs were an absolute mess on my stock motor.  The Harley Heavy Breather dropped the on street IATs something like 40 degrees.

My bike has a huge lean spike on a first gear throttle stab that is not there in third.  Issue traced down to fuel starvation when the tank has less than 1/2 tank.  This would never be found on a dyno.

Bottom line is a dyno only gets the motor close enough to get to the track where the real tuning starts.  I normally skip the dyno.

Andy

[hrdtail78]

99% of the guys that ride Harley's have never been to the track, but I do test ride every bike I tune on the road.

My 09 FL does that on hard launch's if tank is under a 1/4 tank.  This is how I solved it: 

Hard launch = fall on it's face = fill up gas tank.  Dyno showed me that I didn't have a tune problem. How did you tune your out?

[whittlebeast]

I noticed the hickup on the ride but then while looking at the logs from the ride, I saw it in the trace.  It was real apparent that fuel starvation was the issue.  I was used to looking for that sort of thing as most of the stuff I tune are in the 1.3 geez or higher range.

And yes, I now never test that bike with less than a 1/2 tank.  Pistons and rings are a pain to change.

Andy

[mayor]

 recognizing it is one thing, but as hrdtail asked how did you tune it out? 

[Buckeye_Tuning]

This is all nice and good...  but it has REALLY strayed from the OP.

The question here is simple.  For TUNING, can a NB sensor be used on its edge to help try to determine what AFR is happening right that second.  Nothing more, nothing less.  All this talk of running closed loop, etc has NOTHING to do with the OP.  It has EVERYTHING to do with the construction of the sensor.

You guys have moved this way ass away from the OP and are now talking tuning, etc.  I do NOT care if you sporty has crap for brains, Andy.  It runs HALF what a BT runs in the ECM.  That is NOT the question.

The question is... how close to a volt can we get in a Nernst cell and have it hold semi stable.  Doesn't have to hold TRUE, just semi.  The reason I say that is the ECM will work with an average.  We SEE that average out of the ECM using Data tools.  So, at .975 or whatever volts... can we trust the AVERAGE reporting of that nernst cell?  I think that we can do so.  Then the ECM reports that as a voltage, with an offset.  No biggie there at all.

If we tune to that voltage, this should work OK.  The biggest thing would be to TEACH members how to move a fuel line around for consistency....  consistency of an AVERAGE, at that!

Andy, you do have a tendency to move an OP off topic.  Not downing you dude, I'm LOVING you!  But... we all DO know each other somewhat.

So... the question is simply this:  we all TRUST wide bands.  We tune with Wide Bands and accept the results from doing so.  Do NOT argue anything outside of that trust, Andy.  This will be part of our Hypothesis.  It is a GIVEN for this discussion.  One can't argue the givens.

So, since we all trust our wide bands...  can we also trust our Narrow bands to do a similar task?  THAT, my friends is the ONLY question that was asked in the OP.  All other things are a GIVEN (whether they are or not) and NOT arguable.

I know that the Wide bands and NBs use the exact same Nernst cell construction.  Go look at the Bosch site.  Those cells are identical.  Wide bands ADD a pump into the sensor.  This pump allows faster reference air and makes the sensor able to read a wider swing of AFR, and... Bosch and NTK take that ability and change the inherent output of the Nernst cell.  Instead of 0-1 volt... its like 0-5 volts.  ANd... there will be NO damn arguing about that 0-5, as far as can it truly read out there, etc, because 0-5 is a STANDARD in the analog industry and Bosh, etc adopted it.  It could be a fact that if we over powered a WB, it COULD read further that 0-5... who knows?  Do ANY of you?  It just runs on a Standard set by industry.

It is MY understanding that the reference air pumping cell would 'clean out' exhaust gasses faster to allow the sensor to read variations, right?

Well, dammit, we are NOT trying to read TRUE variations, in this thread anyways.  We are reading averages from an ECM.  We are reading WHAT the ECM is seeing, NOT what the sensor is seeing at all. This is analog crap, NOT digital.  It has ranges and not just on/off or good/bad.

Everyone here, except for Andy, will agree that the WHOLE enchilada is about....  if the ECM is 'happy', then the bike will run decently.  Some here need to get over themselves and quit thinking a frigging Harley Engine needs tuned to the NTH degree.  That is the bullchit some tell customers, but here, with our members, this needs to stop.  A damn Harley engine will run FINE, as long as the WOT fuel line is between say... 12.5 to 13.5 AFR.  ANd... as long as we tighten that up a bit, just like we use WBs for... get it roughly from 13.0 to 13.5 AFR, it runs very nicely.  Also, we are not talking huge variations, after all we will be attempting to make the sensor read the damn same, right?  So... reference air pumps come into just a small portion, in this OP due to that fact.  It is WOT TUNING... just that.  WHat is the average voltage we see when trying to make the whole damn thing read the same voltage, right?  Removing reference air quickly looses its main thrust, in life, when we are TRYING to drive the sensor into its happy, non movable, spot. (FWIW... I, myself, tend to make my fuel lines at 13.0 to 12.8.  Most here will agree a bit more fuel for larger builds is simply a safety margin, but... with a DIY guy doing a Stage 2-4?  13.2 AFR is MORE than fine and sufficient).

So... can we use the MV output AVERAGES from the ECM to tune DIY style our bikes for WOT?

The answer is YES, we can. Will it be dead perfect?  NO!  But neither are WBS or 4 gas or anything else.  Simple engine, to a point, and simple solutions wurk best.  Dammit... it does NOT need perfection, what it needs is for a DIYer to understand and use the info, in the same way WE trust our wide bands (with all of THEIR inconsistencies).

Nothing is perfect and all we really need to do is come up with some tables and how-tos to HELP the DIY guys and NOT argue such fine points it doesn't matter.  That crap is for OTHER threads.

[whittlebeast]

And the answer is... I have found that looking at the DC in the data feed is a far better indication that things are in line.  You just have to look at the data.  NB o2s are simply too flaky at that range.

Andy

[mayor]

And the answer is... I have found that looking at the DC in the data feed is a far better indication that things are in line.  You just have to look at the data.  NB o2s are simply too flaky at that range.

what is the DC in the data field that you are referring too?

[Buckeye_Tuning]

I AGREE they are flaky.   But... not THAT flaky.... we are dealing with a Tractor motor running 6k rpms TOPS, at best.  There is NOTHING really high spinning nor high tech about this.   Simply tuning, Andy.  A Harley is a simple machine.  All that is required, until the pro racing level is to keep the damn thing happy.  We are simply looking at the DATA from the ECM Andy, not the true DC from the sensors, here.  It is, after all the ECM that does the controlling of the bike itself... and not ANY sensor in its peripheral.  Right?  ECM works by throwing out the outliers anyways.  This is a SWEEP testing kind of thing, and the end result we are all looking for is a stable OUTPUT from the ECM and WOT.  It is about adjusting the VEs and NOT making the bike run with the sensors online while the bike is moving down the road.  It is ALL about making a look up table on VEs for when the bike is in open loop at WOT, anyways.

If I was to be... well I'm not anymore...  but think of this.  We do NOT look at the DC side of things when using Widebands, so WHY do you continue to refer to that?  WIth WIde bands, we view, and use the data AFTER the controller to read AFR.

Well.... my thought and belief is really quite easy to grasp.  The ECM, on our bikes IS the controller for the NBs, and just like trusting crap from Innovate, etc to get THAT right...  I have to come down to the computing power of the ECM as OUR NB controller.  That, then, allows all kinds of software and programming to AID our sensors, instead of being so simple like a WB controller.

Steve Cole is correct in one area for sho!  ALL wide band info comes from the controller makers .  Innovate, DJ, etc, all make controllers.  How much do WE the users of WBs trust these?  HAHA...  I would take the power of an ECM to manipulate data before I would completely trust Innovate.

My thought is truly this.  It is MY belief that an AFR of like 16:1 is dangerous on our bikes at WOT.  13:1 is NOT.  Neither is 13.5 or 12.5:1.

Like I have been saying... on such a low tech low spinning engine...  close IS good enough for the average DIY guy... and the Dyno guy, too.

Using MV as an output, instead of whatever we see from a WB AFTER its controller is pretty much the same deal.  I, myself, have come to the conclusion this is good enough and comparable to using WBs on our bikes.  A HARLEY, not every bike, nor everything out there.  Our slow moving, slow revving, powerhouse ECM bikes.  One can NOT ever forget, we have the most sophisticated ECM on any Street bike already.  That was the "HOW" we stayed an air cooled bike for so long, right?  The ECM, right?  Sure it is/was!

[whittlebeast]

what is the DC in the data field that you are referring too?

In the case of Harley logs, you have to calculate Duty Cycle based on the RPM and Pulse Width.  If you get a registered version of MLVHD, I can help you with that part.  If you are using TTS software, ask Steve.

[Buckeye_Tuning]

I have a LM2 from Innovate.  I use my LC1s all the time, BTW.  Anyways, Innovate has some screwed up software, the heater circuits are FORKED UP with the LM2.  Burns thru O2 sensors really fast.   So......  I am to TRUST they got the sniffing side correctly, and TRUST that more than I trust an ECM on our bikes?  Ummmmmmmm

Andy, you will NOT stay in the lines of the question at hand, and as you should know... the lines are our friends.  You keep moving things towards TUNING and not so much how PROS will tune a bike, and how a DIYer will tune a bike.  QUIT questioning the tune itself.  So, I have YOU down to you do NOT trust the NBs to obtain WOT VEs.  I have a teenie bit of a hard time 'trusting' Innovate, but NOT trusting the ECM.

I feel that is lieu of doing NOTHING or extending VEs, or paying a guy to sniff a bike, those that are willing CAN use this as a method to get that 80+kpa areas.

[Buckeye_Tuning]

And..  I stand corrected on some things.  TTS is NOT working on this, I guess.  And... this should work on SEPST and PV as well as TTS....  if somebody takes the TIME needed to help our members with the variations involved.

[whittlebeast]

I too have smoked several Innovate Widband sensors over the years.  I have had great luck/success with the latest stuff from Dynojet.

Andy

[hrdtail78]

DC is just the percent the injector is open propositioned to how long it can open.   80%  DC of a 4.3 is the same as 80% DC of a 5.7, but you are going to get more fuel for the same PW. 

Are you looking for a certain DC or just a pattern?

[mayor]

OK Back to the OP.
Can we agree we can target a specific NBO2 voltage to end up with a variance of 12.8-13.8 WOT AFR?

Bob

I would never trust that on my bike.  I would trust MAPxRPM vs DC

Andy

Ok, now I’m following a little more what you are talking about.  So, where in that formula does volume of air (engine volume) or volume of injector come into play?  how accurate are the specified injector values to the actual measured injector values?  are they accurate enough to make general tuning assumptions based on the duty cycle and engine specific volume? what if the injector is on either outside edge of allowable tolerance?