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[FLTRI]

Thats the boat that I am in. Several indi's in town with dynos and eventhe dealership has a dyno but none of them prefer TTS. The dealership here won't have anything to do with TTS. Like the Op, I too am faced with a decision about which system to go with. The Powervision and Thundermax seem like they are so much easier to use.

Does Powervision also lock the dealers out of the ECM the same way that TTS does?

With that depth of dynos in your area just ask around. It should be easy to find who provides the best running bikes and go with them. Of course use whatever they prefer.

Bob

[grc]

Thats the boat that I am in. Several indi's in town with dynos and eventhe dealership has a dyno but none of them prefer TTS. The dealership here won't have anything to do with TTS. Like the Op, I too am faced with a decision about which system to go with. The Powervision and Thundermax seem like they are so much easier to use.

Does Powervision also lock the dealers out of the ECM the same way that TTS does?

If you aren't familiar with tuning yourself, you will be best served by spending your time worrying much less about which device and software package and more time researching who is the best tuner in your area to provide a superior tune.  If you take your car or bike to a shop for mechanical work, do you worry about which set of tools is the best (Snap-on, SK, Proto, etc.), or do you concentrate on the important part which is the guy who is going to be using those tools to perform the actual work?  The same thing applies with tuning packages.   Find the guy you expect to make your bike run great FIRST, then let him advise you on the device and software.

Jerry

[joe_lyons50023]

PV does not lock out digital tech.  Only TTS and of course TMAX.

[Durwood]

Having the capability to tune with wide band sensors in ALL areas is the reason I went with the Power Vision, cuts out the guess work in the 80-100 kpa

[kiwihog]

i am running the power vision tuner by dynojet and love it.  it has an auto tune basic function that works amazing.  and if you shell out some more money you can get an auto tune pro package that is supposed to work even better.  you do not need to leave the unit on the bike after you flash it, so you don't need to worry about mounting it.  you can reflash your bike with it as many times as you want.  i have used the vance and hines fuel pack, and the dynojet power commander in the past.  hands down, the power vision is at the top of the class.

X2 for power vision even to the point of setting 4 digital gauges if you mount it you can show engine temp gear position instant mpg in fact almost anything the ECM monitors can be displayed on the lcd screen and you can store up to 6 different tunes that can be flashed in about 2 minutes while on the road I have 4 set 1/ stock setup 2/power 3/ economy 4/if I have to use crap gas

[roger28310]

If you aren't familiar with tuning yourself, you will be best served by spending your time worrying much less about which device and software package and more time researching who is the best tuner in your area to provide a superior tune.  If you take your car or bike to a shop for mechanical work, do you worry about which set of tools is the best (Snap-on, SK, Proto, etc.), or do you concentrate on the important part which is the guy who is going to be using those tools to perform the actual work?  The same thing applies with tuning packages.   Find the guy you expect to make your bike run great FIRST, then let him advise you on the device and software.

Jerry

I have no doubt that I can tune both a Delphi and an Alpha-N system. This is not that hard. But honestly after listening to everyones remarks about the various systems, and I have been lurking on various forums long enough to get a feel for who is who, I ordered my Powervision today. Should be here on Monday.

On another topic, but sort of related has anyone used an external wide-band 02 monitor that has a controller with an output lead that will emulate a narrow band sensor. Sort of interested in trying one of these with a Delhi based oem system instead of the oem narrow band sensors. Without getting into the debate on monitoring narrow band sensor voltage, etc, this setup looks like it would do a pretty good job of tuning all the way to 100 kpa.

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/innovate-standalone-gauge-kit-lc1-g4-analog-gauge-3821-p-328.html

[JakeB]

I just find it amusing how defensive the TTS crowd is.  It's a fine tuner, and I won't say a bad word about it (as I've done a ton of tuning with it).  But the PV has a far simpler UI, the display makes street tuning simpler and safer, and I don't have to lug a laptop around with me.

There's plenty of market out there for multiple tuners (hell, Nightrider's making a decent living).  You're happy with a TTS?  I'm happy for you.  For my money, I'll spend the same amount on a PV which comes with cables (and not that antiquated serial crap) and a display.  You won't convince me that a TTS will tune a Stage 1 any better than a PV, and that's what 90% of them are used for.

........well put sir

[FLTRI]

I have no doubt that I can tune both a Delphi and an Alpha-N system. This is not that hard.

Confidence, I like that.
Bob

[Buckeye_Tuning]

In 07, Night Rider tried to market a kit with the Innovate wide band O2 controllers (LC1s) and used its 'mimic' function to mimic NBs.

The AFVs went crazy and this set up did not work very well at all.  This was all way before they came out with the XIED stuff.

The reality, at present, is that there really is not a tuning device that can keep a Delphi in closed loop correctly, using Wide Bands.  It truly IS all about the shapes of the voltage slopes and what the ECM is looking for.  (and, I am NOT talking about an EMS set up, because that is more than an add-on).  What I mean about slopes... is the shapes and voltages outputted by the device.  Going down the road, a bike constantly goes rich to lean to rich to lean, etc...  all the while it is in closed loop.  When to bike is going from lean to rich, the ECM looks for various voltages to control the fuel, from the O2 sensors, AND... when going from rich to lean, it also looks for various voltages.  The thing is.... the voltages the ECM looks for are DIFFERENT voltages in different spots on a graph.  All of the Wide Band mimic things I have seen, or read about, have the SAME voltages in the SAME spots on the graph going in either direction.  This can make the ECM act up and lose its mind.  See?

Sigh, I didn't truly 'get' that, until I had already purchased two Innovate LC1s, either.  But...  I eventually used those to be able to have a way to sniff without the dyno sniffer, if need be.....  like with Direct Link, for example.  I'm just sharing my own experiences so that you don't waste $$$ like I did.
...

What I would do, before I ordered the PV is this...  I too have a handful of Dyno shops surrounding me.  What I have found is all of those, but one, does NOT use a brake to tune with.  In fact, their dynos have no brakes.

Search around with those tuners, find one that HAS and USES his brake to tune with.  Then simply ask him what tuner he prefers.  05 train says a lot of truth about a STage 1 bike... it really doesn't matter a whole lot what tuning device you use, what matters is how good is the tuner himself!

I just got a sheet in from a guy in the next state over.  His tuner used a TTS, but said the bike ran poorly.  He sent me his map.

WOW!!!  The tuner guy, using a flash tuner, made the front and rear VEs completely identical!!!

Some of us tuners dislike other tuners.  Sucks, but that is life.  But... in the same breath, I would use the guys that I fight with ANY DAY OF THE WEEK, before I would go with just anybody.  Most of us online just have divided into 'camps, is all.  These guys DO a GOOD tune and tune with eddy current brakes, just like we do. We probably mirror each others work more than we will admit.   I have wished to bring this up for awhile... after I started seeing folks get really bad crap ass tunes from shops with NO brakes.

PV could be fine, as long as a GOOD shop can tune with it.  Same with TTS, or SEPST, or even Direct Link.  It DOES take a brake to get a decent tune.  And before I committed to just anyone, I would question a prospective tuner if his dyno HAS a brake, and does he use it.  Does he tune each cylinder completely separate?  How does he 'sniff?  Does he sniff each cylinder separately?  Does he set timing per cylinder? ,etc.

THAT is way more important than the brand of tuner, in my book.

I, myself, prefer TTS.  The real reason is I know folks with dynos that also tune using TTS.  I can call any one of these guys for help, like they can with me.  I know the manufacturer of TTS, if I can't figure out an oddball thing, he is also a phone calls away.  Lastly, I have used a TTS for years and feel comfortable and confident in my ability to deliver a customer a good tune using TTS.  OK, do you 'get' that?  I, myself like being aligned with a company that does NOT sit and rest.  I wish to have innovation for myself and DIYers.  When VTune 3 comes out, that will be a game changer for awhile, until other companies copy and catch up.  Just my own personal thing is all, too.

There are dyno tuners that feel the exact same way as I do, except they prefer PV over anything.  There surely are a few that feel the same way about a SEPST (don't know why, but there it is), and with Direct Link?  I KNOW some dyno folks that LOVE that system, and I, myself am really starting to like it a ton,too!  Some even use any old flash tuner, because they use DTT Twin Scan to tune with and then input that data into a map they upload into a bike.  They will also adjust a ton of tables to get a good running bike.

Pick the tuner with the brake and who sounds like he really LIKES tuning, we here, on CVO, with dynos are simply PASSIONATE about it all.  Then buy the tuning product he is most comfortable with.  A good tuner will take his time, too.  Most of us that are online and own/run dynos take OUR time.  Someone that wishes to have a bike for a couple days will most likely deliver a better tune than someone can in two friggin hours (like that tune I mentioned).  I am kind of slow at this.  It takes me about 8 hours to tune a bike with TTS.  I don't see what the rush is about.....  One will play with ALL of the available settings trying to improve the tune.  There are about 25-30 settings and tables in a modern flash tuner... I do NOT care if someone has a ton of base maps, each bike is different.  To tune correctly, IMHO, one needs to play with the majority of settings to have the BEST outcome.  See?  PV, DL, etc tuners are exactly the same, if they are doing what they are paid to do and are passionate about tuning.  THIS is the chit that counts, IMHO.

That is how I would do it, and IS what I recommend to guys that ask.

[joe_lyons50023]

I Agree

[FLTRI]

Simply put...if you had say 3 really good calibrations for most cam and pipe combos for most of the bikes you were to tune...
For example, I mean calibrations that took hours, sometimes all damn day, to get just right for popular combos, such as 2010-13 touring bikes with SE Stage 4 kit (SE heads, SE259 cams, high comp pistons SE58mmTB, 5.3inj, Rinehart tru-duals and S/E air filter.
We have seen a fair amount of those so I have calibrations for same Stage 4 builds with Fatcats, Dragos, Thunderheaders, and Bassani.
Also have some variations of similar cals with diff VE personalities if needed.

These are BASE tuning cals but they are usually very close base cals, and that makes a difference in how long a tuner takes to get it right.

There are also tuning techniques developed over years tuning all kinds of combos that help the understanding what a particular build likes/needs.

With all that said what it really comes down to, is whether a tuner can consistently produce quality tunes regardless of how long it takes to get it right.

Having known good build base cals also makes for valuable diagnostics... when a bike doesn't seem right, close, or behaving badly for no appearance reason you can bet there is something like a sensor going or gone, throttle shaft broken, t/p sensor bad spot, intake leak, etc, etc...most recently 10-up touring bikes coming in with new exhaust systems proudly installed usually by the owner with the O2 sensors in backward causing the tune to degrade and the bike gets worse as time goes on sometimes within minutes.

Please don't hold it against me fellas,
Bob

[mayor]

good post Buckeye. 

[whittlebeast]

On another topic, but sort of related has anyone used an external wide-band 02 monitor that has a controller with an output lead that will emulate a narrow band sensor. Sort of interested in trying one of these with a Delhi based oem system instead of the oem narrow band sensors. Without getting into the debate on monitoring narrow band sensor voltage, etc, this setup looks like it would do a pretty good job of tuning all the way to 100 kpa.

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/innovate-standalone-gauge-kit-lc1-g4-analog-gauge-3821-p-328.html

I have several widebands.  I like the stuff by Dynojet better.  It just works and it hooks right in to your PowerVision.  I have a two channel on the ricebike and a single channel on the jetski.  I have an Innovate on the turbo rotary.

Andy