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[whittlebeast]

Did I miss where you asked a question?

[FLTRI]

Andy, I think to get everyone up with you and what you are showing us, first you need to explain scatter plotting and why it's "way cool" to look at and see what's happening. Ie: why you need an hr of data.

Then, after a quick 101 class, explain how you take what you see in the plot and use it to make changes.

For example, "See these dots here? This is why it's not good vs this or this right here means you need to change the VE (s) by x amount to correct the issue."

Or "This is an example of good tune say@ steady-state 2500rpm cruise and this is an example of a poorly tuned steady-state 2500rpm cruise tune and this is how you see it". (Use arrows etc to point to it on the graph.)

Then, when you post scatter plots folks will know what to look for and what/how to make changes to what.

Thanks Andy,
Bob

[hrdtail78]

Frankly, most of this stuff is flying 40,000 feet over my head. I have read it and re-read it multiple times, and it just doesn't seem worth all of the trouble to me. All of these scatter plots give me a headache after a few moments of looking at them and attempting to SEE what Andy says they show.

As a 30-year software guy, I know that analysis can be done perfectly fine using mathematical calculations, and I don't understand why all of the scatter plots are even necessary along the way. If the data is there and it's good data - a well-written computer algorithm is far more efficient at analyzing it, eliminating anomalies, performing complex statistical analyses, and identifying trends - and producing good results - than is a human looking at charts. There are many software products on the market - and I've used several - that can perform extremely complex analyses on what we call "big data"... literally trillions of rows of data... and the only time they ever create charts is when the results of these complex analyses need to be seen by a human. The charts are used merely to present the results to a human... not to determine how to do the next analysis, nor how to apply the results of the analyses to the end product.

As a user, I just want a tuning device that figures out all of this stuff using the real-world data I have collected during rides, updates my tune, and lets me then enjoy riding the bike more. I think that's what most riders really want. I really couldn't care less about the last 2% of power to be gained, if it means exerting 10 or more times the effort to get it. It's the law of diminishing returns. I'll be more than happy with the first 98%, or even the first 95%, and I am confident that the TTS gives me all that I need and will ever be able to use.

If I were a pro tuner like some of the folks here, then it might all be more interesting and relevant to me... not to mention more understandable. And believe me, I've tried hard to understand. But frankly I can't see how all of this is worth the effort unless you're tuning top fuel dragsters, NASCAR engines, or race bikes - and winning is everything.

I guess my question is: Why is all of this NECESSARY for tuning Harley big twins... especially big hulking 900 lb Touring bikes? The Twin Cam isn't exactly a modern, state-of-the-art racing engine. When is a tune "good enough", and do devices such as the TTS provide a "good enough "tune? Will most riders ever notice an extra ft-lb or two of torque, or 2 extra HP? I may be completely ignorant about this level of tuning... but if Steve Cole doesn't get it either, then it's clearly far above my level of understanding, and way more than I will ever need.

I'll bow out of this thread now, but I'll continue watching it from time to time. It clearly isn't aimed at people like me.

Ken

 

[whittlebeast]

Lets look again at a Long term fuel trims plot I posted a few pages back.



I have added a couple of green lines.  The vertical line is at about 32 KPA.  The horizontal line is at about 2000 RPM.  The color of most of the dots is clearly red all around than MAP and RPM.  Red on the scale to the right translates to 105 or 5% extra fuel is being added in most of the cells in that area.

Does everyone that concept on scatter plots?

Andy

[whittlebeast]

Regarding hour long data runs.  More is always better when dealing with statistics.  We all deal with statistics with this stuff.  Many of us just don't realize it.

Andy

[FLTRI]

Andy, I think to get everyone up with you and what you are showing us, first you need to explain scatter plotting and why it's "way cool" to look at and see what's happening. Ie: why you need an hr of data.

Then, after a quick 101 class, explain how you take what you see in the plot and use it to make changes.

For example, "See these dots here? This is why it's not good vs this or this right here means you need to change the VE (s) by x amount to correct the issue."

Or "This is an example of good tune say@ steady-state 2500rpm cruise and this is an example of a poorly tuned steady-state 2500rpm cruise tune and this is how you see it". (Use arrows etc to point to it on the graph.)

Then, when you post scatter plots folks will know what to look for and what/how to make changes to what.

Thanks Andy,
Bob

[whittlebeast]

I need data to demo that part.  Most everything I have is already sorted.  40 hz data would be way better than the stuff I have.  This group never seems to appreciate the cool stuff.  Most of the motors I have data from don't really even want to run till 5000.

Andy

[whittlebeast]

Throttle response as God intended....



In engine tuning "good enough" is what you say when you are stumped.  You really just need guys better at typing.  Those guys can type.

Have fun tuning

[mayor]

I need data to demo that part.  Most everything I have is already sorted.  40 hz data would be way better than the stuff I have.  The this group never seems to appreciate the cool stuff.  Most of the motors I have data from don't really even want to run till 5000.

When I was a slightly younger lad, I took a college speech class.  One of the first lessons that we were given was know your audience.  You need to know who you are talking to, and know how to gain their interest with what you want to talk about.  It appears that you know this audience based in the above comments, but you haven’t quite made the transition into knowing how to gain our interest.  I bought the MLV years ago when you were active on the HTT forum.  I can honestly say that I actually haven’t touched it in well over a year.  I like the scatter graphs for reviewing some data, but I found that the other tools available to me got me close enough in my own personal tunes that I didn’t find using the program as valuable as the time spent using it.  In the end, I know and understand that with these chromed out tractor motors close enough really is for most folks.  When you have fellows who can run canned maps in open loop that are extremely out of tune to that particular motorcycle and never report negative issues, then it is going to be tough to convince someone that through statistics the motorcycle would be much happier and the owner would notice a difference.  Heck, just afr tuning on some of these bikes would make them happier….but even the thought of that doesn’t appeal to some folks.  I have read your comments on using these scatter plots for quite a few years, and you always seem to be lacking the data to validate your opinion that this stuff works. I’m not saying it doesn’t work, but after several years of you being a crusader for this method of tuning you would think that you could show us at least some sort of proof that this is beneficial to big twin owners.   

I will respectfully be critical of you on one aspect.  When you use words like way cool stuff to describe what you’re doing, I automatically assume that you either can not talk to us in a technical manner or you assume we do not have the ability to discuss things in a technical manner.  Neither of which is showing that you know your target audience in my opinion.   

[redmtrckl]

Zzzzzzzzz

[FLTRI]

Andy, I think to get everyone up with you and what you are showing us, first you need to explain scatter plotting and why it's "way cool" to look at and see what's happening. Ie: why you need an hr of data.

Then, after a quick 101 class, explain how you take what you see in the plot and use it to make changes.

For example, "See these dots here? This is why it's not good vs this or this right here means you need to change the VE (s) by x amount to correct the issue."

Or "This is an example of good tune say@ steady-state 2500rpm cruise and this is an example of a poorly tuned steady-state 2500rpm cruise tune and this is how you see it". (Use arrows etc to point to it on the graph.)

Then, when you post scatter plots folks will know what to look for and what/how to make changes to what.

Thanks Andy,
Bob

[turboprop]

Throttle response as God intended....



In engine tuning "good enough" is what you say when you are stumped.  You really just need guys better at typing.  Those guys can type.

Have fun tuning

Andy, was the car in this video tuned using MLV?

[whittlebeast]

I have no clue how F1 does this stuff.  Indy car and stock car uses similar methods.

Andy

[turboprop]

Andy, I really want to know more, but like my friend Mayor, I too have not seen anything usefull or really interesting with MLV. Would really like for you to post up something that has been tuned using MegaSquirt or any of it's related systems. Please man, post up something useful and enlightening, maybe even dumb it down for the masses. Post up something that we can see and understand as many of us, even those with TTS tattoed on their butt, are always looking for something better or at least another way to validate and confirm.

[North Georgia Hawg]

Andy, I really want to know more, but like my friend Mayor, I too have not seen anything usefull or really interesting with MLV. Would really like for you to post up something that has been tuned using MegaSquirt or any of it's related systems. Please man, post up something useful and enlightening, maybe even dumb it down for the masses. Post up something that we can see and understand as many of us, even those with TTS tattoed on their butt, are always looking for something better or at least another way to validate and confirm.

When did you see my BUTT?

Oops... I'm not supposed to be in this thread any longer... Sorry...

Ken