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[FLTRI]

Wow! It looks like some copy/paste going on. It appears some assumptions as to some of the extension of VEs?
I like to tune each cell @ steady state, then back it up with sweep tuning...that way I get the best of both worlds.
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Wow! It looks like some copy/paste going on. It appears some assumptions as to some of the extension of VEs?
I like to tune each cell @ steady state, then back it up with sweep tuning...that way I get the best of both worlds.
Bob

Please clarify the Copy / Paste comment.  I missed something.

Keep in mind that the vast majority of people messing with their motors don't own a dyno.

Andy

[FLTRI]

Here is a sample MAP based VE adjustment map from a PC5 on the right and the data that generated the adjustments on the left.  All MAP units are in KPA.

Note the same numbers???

[whittlebeast]

Are you referring to the numbers you get in color on the scatter plots is real close to the numbers in the PC5 map?

I did add the red line on the right side of the screen shot in Paint.....  That was done for a different forum to point out what numbers were in play on a typical ride.

Andy

[FLTRI]

No, I am referring to the PC5 VE adjustment table you posted to the right of the scatter plot.
A lot of the exact same numbers.
I have never tuned an engine that changes were precisely the same in an area.
This is why I said it looked like copy/paste.
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Scatter plots do a good job of showing where the motor can get on a typical ride,  I go out of my way to run the crud out of my motor when tune testing attempting to get to every area that the motor can get to.  The problem with this sort of thing is figuring out what to do in the areas that you never got to in the testing. 

I see this all the time in the Harley world.  These guys put cams in the motor with the only apparent goal is to make the motor idle bad, make lots of noise and be a dyno queen with numbers higher that the guy across the bar.  You see data off their typical ride and they never use the motor where it was designed to run. 

Yes I realize this is the audience here.  I simply don't get it.  Most of the people I tune for run the ever living snot out of their motor.  Corello rods, gun drilled titanium bolts, carbon graphite panels and brackets everywhere just to get weight out off and get the entire package.  The only goal is to be out front for the last three feet of the race.  Winning is everything to these guys.  All summer is just practice for one week in early fall somewhere.

I enjoy sharing what I have learned over the years.  Lots of people have contacted me off line thanking me for sharing.  It is interesting that they apparently have been too intimidated over the years to post anywhere, but they are reading.

Andy

[FLTRI]

Probably one of the most valuable tool in the tuner's box for tuning outside the normal "box" is the eddy brake.
It is very easy to get wherever the engine will run regardless of what speed gear, etc.

Street tuning is fine as long as the brakes and clutch are in good shape and the rider has a true understanding what is necessary to get where "no man has gone before".

I don't recommend street tuning based on my own experience...it can be very dangerous when done in traffic of any level. I would say street tuning is on the same par as texting while driving. Difference is, when a car runs into the vehicle in front of them there is a much better chance of survival than if accomplished with a motorcycle.

Bob

[whittlebeast]

Owning a Dyno is $35000 out of the scope of this thread.

Andy

[joe_lyons50023]

Bob why did you have such a big discussion about using nb o2 sensors for the diy tuner for wot recording when you are against street tuning for the diyer.  Gonna have to be dangerous to collect enough data for wot nb tuning right?

[FLTRI]

Bob why did you have such a big discussion about using nb o2 sensors for the diy tuner for wot recording when you are against street tuning for the diyer.  Gonna have to be dangerous to collect enough data for wot nb tuning right?

Owning a Dyno is $35000 out of the scope of this thread.

Andy

Joe,
Oops. Guess I wasn't very clear. Sorry.
Being mindful of what it takes to get a good street closed course tune I wasn't meaning I'm against it.
Street Closed course tuning can be very dangerous especially if your trying to read a little monitor attached to the handlebars while trying to watch where you're going...
Street Closed course tuning techniques must be developed outside normal riding habits to get a good tune.
Just the issues that must be dealt with in a careful manner or the rider is just an accident waiting to happen.

Anyone who has efi tuning experience riding in traffic while reading a small monitor and making adjustments will have a story about the challenges.

I can tell you from my personal experience, I was really glad to have had my wife on the back while I was dialing in my fuel tables...when I had drifted a bit into the oncoming lane she tapped me to look up just as a logging truck came around the corner hugging the line. OMFG!!!!

Andy,
Are you saying this thread does not apply to Dyno tuning...meaning scatter plots are useless?

[whittlebeast]

When I was messing with the Sporty, I have the digital display set to AFR, or O2 voltage front and rear so I can tell at a glance if the bike is running in closed loop.  I have never tried the fill the dots routine. When I am tuning a ski, I don't even have the digital display where I can see it.  In the race cars, I typically have the driver do a couple of warmup laps. If everything is close, I have him do a few qualifying like laps and the do a couple of cool down laps.  That sequence normally gets enough data to see where the motor needs tweaking.  We have limits set up on all critical sensors that brings on a CEL so to speak, to get the driver to check the gauges.

Racecar testing     www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBG6zzU7SQ8
autocross testing  www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq2pMKXyOlE
jetski testing        www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEkC6Tlpp3A

On the street driven bikes we try to limit all higher load testing to first and second gear and normally up hill.  Highway entrance ramps work good as nobody will pull out in front of you.  This is also good for testing for fuel starvation.

The turbo stuff is the most problematic to test and most of the time is best tested on a dyno.  The real issue is most of those cars end up way too fast for the street anyway.  The 8 sec street car was one of the hardest cars I ever tuned.

My kids rotary turbo Miata is a real handful.

Andy

[FLTRI]

Andy,
Are you saying this thread does not apply to Dyno tuning...meaning scatter plots are useless?
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Andy,
Are you saying this thread does not apply to Dyno tuning...meaning scatter plots are useless?
Bob

You can log a dyno run just fine.  Feel free to post one up.

[FLTRI]

I would assume the steady state capability of the Dyno & Brake combo would provide very stable data for measurement without transitions ie: AE, getting in the way?
Bob

[whittlebeast]

I would assume the steady state capability of the Dyno & Brake combo would provide very stable data for measurement without transitions ie: AE, getting in the way?
Bob

AE never gets in the way.  AE is the way.  Half of the battle of tuning EFI is the AE and DE.  Transitions is everything and happens all the time on the street.



In this shot, everything above the Blue line is in the AE region.  That region all happens in less than a second when you get it correct.  When it's wrong, the customer is not happy.  It can be tested at 40 samples per sec if you know what to look for.

Andy