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Author Topic: Need Help! Motor Keeps Eating Cam Plates!  (Read 10445 times)

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bikerboy53

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Need Help! Motor Keeps Eating Cam Plates!
« on: October 05, 2013, 08:46:38 PM »

I'm hoping someone out there can help me figure out why my 120R has been eating cam plates since it was new. The rotors on the oil pump eat into the cam plate in a half moon shape. (See photo.) We first discovered the problem when the motor had about 1200 miles on it. We took it apart for some cam work, and found the unusual wear.

The dealer investigated things and put the second cam plate in for me. At the same time we thought maybe the crank was the culprit so we had the crank trued, welded, plugged, and a Timken conversion done at Darkhorse. After the motor went back together the dealer put another 11 miles on it, re-checked it and found it had bad wear on the second cam plate. 

They tore it back down, and investigated some more but still couldn't find anything wrong, so they put the third cam plate in it. By the time I got the bike back it was just before Memorial Day Weekend. The dealer didn't think it was fixed, but they said it's summer time, get out and ride, and we'll see what happens. We have been riding it all summer and by the time we got back from Sturgis (about 8,000 miles on this cam plate), the motor was still running strong, but had very low oil pressure and ran VERY hot! The dealer took it apart and found the cam plate and oil pump were both worn out. (Not really a surprise.)

They have re-checked the crank runout and it is showing about .0018". While it is not perfect, it's still not bad runout, and Darkhorse agreed that it's still within acceptable limits and shouldn't be causing these kinds of problems.

I'm on my fourth cam plate now. The dealership is stumped, so along the way they called Tech Services for a little help. Tech Services agreed that it definitely sounded like there is something wrong with this motor, but since it's a 120R they had to refer it to the Screamin' Eagle group. After a couple of weeks the answer came back from Screamin' Eagle: It's a high torque motor, the crankshaft could flex and cause the oil pump rotors to eat into the cam plate. It's "normal" for one of these motors.

Not the kind of help we had hoped for. The mechanic who is doing the work has been doing this stuff for over 20 years, and has previously built a very reliable motor for my 2007 SERK. It went through 3 crankshafts and numerous oil leaks while under the factory warranty. After the warranty expired we had Darkhorse do the crank and Timken work, and the motor has run strong and reliably (knock on wood!) ever since.

I'm hoping someone out there has either seen this kind of problem before and knows what might be causing it, or maybe someone can tell me what we can check to figure out what is causing this problem.  So far, the dealer has stood behind the motor in spite of the MOCO's unwillingness to back them up, but I don't think they can continue much longer. The time has come to either figure out the problem and fix this motor or replace it.

Thanks in advance for any help you all can provide!
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bikerboy53

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Re: Need Help! Motor Keeps Eating Cam Plates!
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2013, 08:47:54 PM »

Cam plate number two with 11 miles on it...
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bikerboy53

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Re: Need Help! Motor Keeps Eating Cam Plates!
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2013, 08:48:54 PM »

Cam plate number three with about 8,000 miles on it.
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bikerboy53

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Re: Need Help! Motor Keeps Eating Cam Plates!
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2013, 08:50:52 PM »

The original 120R oil pump with about 9,500 total miles on it...
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johnsachs

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Re: Need Help! Motor Keeps Eating Cam Plates!
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2013, 09:07:22 PM »

Is there any noticeable wear on the pinion bushing in the cam plate ?
John
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sadunbar

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Re: Need Help! Motor Keeps Eating Cam Plates!
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2013, 09:55:22 PM »

I'd want to check and verify the crank centerline of the case is square to the camplate mounting surface.  With your crank runout, it's a bit difficult to check with dial indicators.  A simple check on a CMM machine, if you have access to one.  It wouldn't be the first time I've seen this...   
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timo482

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Re: Need Help! Motor Keeps Eating Cam Plates!
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2013, 09:58:20 PM »

i do a lot of machining [its my hobby - ya i know strange hobby - but its relaxing to make metal parts]

id bet a beer that the case is machined wrong. put a magnetic base on the end of the crank and sweep the mount points for the cam plate ill be the cam plate is a few thousandths out of square with the crank and the rest of the case. if it is and there is no warranty - then you could make a fixture to clamp the case to the table of a mill and mill the plate mount bosses back to square and then make a thin spacer to put on the back of the cam plate to get the oil pump clearance back to right and ill bet it would work just fine.

there are a number of shops that can do that kind of work - its just setting up to measure the runout of the cam plate mounts that needs to be done on the assembled engine to get the answer.

to
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grc

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Re: Need Help! Motor Keeps Eating Cam Plates!
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2013, 10:10:18 PM »


I agree with sadunbar and timo482, this sounds and looks like a case machining error.  And as for the BS from the Screamin' Eagle Group (of nitwits), what you are seeing is not in any way, shape or form a "normal" condition.  Typical Harley-Davidson crap; we don't have a clue so it must be normal.

Jerry
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Twolanerider

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Re: Need Help! Motor Keeps Eating Cam Plates!
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2013, 01:12:00 AM »

I agree with sadunbar and timo482,

...... and Jerry


At the risk of being multiply redundant while reading your description of the repetitive problems the first (and really only) thing that came to mind was the centerline is off.  A case machining error.

The report from the Screamin' Eagle group is just asinine and absurd.  So it's corporate policy writ large to assign customers to the Mushroom Committee and assume they'll accept it? 

In some ways it's even worse in this case as they don't really have to be evasive (and stupid).  There's not any factory warranty on the 120R so they aren't saving anything by being truthful and just saying "yeap, it's got a problem, we're sorry but it sucks to be you."
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Heatwave

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Re: Need Help! Motor Keeps Eating Cam Plates!
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2013, 09:23:46 AM »

Sounds like the nonsense of "torque flexing" could be easily ruled out by running the engine at idle for a period of time with a new plate and then inspecting. Sounds like the wear marks would be in place even without the stress of hard acceleration. I think others have nailed it that the machining on the case is off. Hopefully the dealer supports your situation.
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sadunbar

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Re: Need Help! Motor Keeps Eating Cam Plates!
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2013, 12:02:48 PM »

Sounds like the nonsense of "torque flexing" could be easily ruled out by running the engine at idle for a period of time with a new plate and then inspecting. Sounds like the wear marks would be in place even without the stress of hard acceleration. I think others have nailed it that the machining on the case is off. Hopefully the dealer supports your situation.

I have close to 20K on my 120r and have recently completed my annual cam chest inspections.  I have no wear marks like the op has shown in his photos.  "Torque flexing" causing the wear marks is ridiculous...
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Twolanerider

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Re: Need Help! Motor Keeps Eating Cam Plates!
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2013, 01:24:31 PM »

I have close to 20K on my 120r and have recently completed my annual cam chest inspections.  I have no wear marks like the op has shown in his photos.  "Torque flexing" causing the wear marks is ridiculous...

No it's not.  Harley says so.
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ImBroke

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Re: Need Help! Motor Keeps Eating Cam Plates!
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2013, 01:45:05 PM »

Same situation with my 120R.  Got sick of tearing it down and replacing the cam plate, oil pump, lifters and cams so I sold it
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bikerboy53

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Re: Need Help! Motor Keeps Eating Cam Plates!
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2013, 07:05:12 PM »

Thanks for all the suggestions guys! I was thinking there was some kind of crankcase machining error too. We have a couple of CMMs at work, but I don't think I can get the crankcase in there for measuring without getting myself or someone else into a lot of trouble.

I was thinking about making a bracket to bolt a dial indicator to the end of the crank, but I agree that it might be hard to use that information due to the runout the crank has by itself. I might give it a try anyway to see what kind of numbers we get... I'm not sure what else I can do though. It's very disappointing that the MOCO won't investigate this a little more thoroughly. At one point they did replace one of the cylinder heads because oil was seeping into the exhaust port around the guide.

Attached is a close-up of the crank bushing in one of the cam plates -I think it's from the latest cam plate, but I don't know for sure. In the picture you can see that the wear on the bushing only occurs on the upper half. At first I thought that might mean something, but after looking at a couple of cam plates from other motors, it looks like that is where they normally wear?

If you look closely though, you can see that it looks like the chamfer around the I.D. of the bushing disappears completely at the top of the bushing. I don't know how "normal" that wear might be?
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timo482

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Re: Need Help! Motor Keeps Eating Cam Plates!
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2013, 09:21:24 PM »

its not worth getting in trouble - id get the whole case to a shop that has the skills and eq to measure and fix. it IS probably fixable

also knowing that at least one other case is messed up its likely a fixture issue machining the case from 96 spec to 120 spec. probably will take more hours and bux to figure out whats up than to actually fix it.

on the other hand - a 120 case is really not that expensive  - labor at a good shop is very expensive - might be cheaper to get a new case - and measure it before assy to avoid the "your problem" issue if the new case is bad - its bad and you should be able to return it.

to
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