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[Twolanerider]

  I would not let a dealership repair an engine ....period

   Replace with new....brand new engine

That may be a good thought and a proper idea.  Unfortunately what's done is up to no one but the service contract provider.  They might (or might not) be willing to have a courteous discussion with the bike's owner but by terms of the ESP they don't have to listen to a word we say.

[Twolanerider]

From the current HD SE catalog for higher lift cams and springs:

"We recommend installation of Screamin’ Eagle Twin Cam Lifters
P/N 18572-13 in high lift cam scenarios in combination with high
pressure valve spring applications. We also recommend that lifters
in these applications be replaced every 7500 miles."

I'd not seen that in the recent SE catalog.  Guess I wouldn't though as I try my best to avoid HD branded product as much as possible.  That there's a factory recommendation for primary internal engine components that can lead to catastrophic (and dangerous) failure to be replaced more often than some auto manufacturers now stretch oil change intervals is embarrassing.  And yet we (that's the royal wee [yes, that was on purpose]) keep buying this crap....  That's even more embarassing.

[moscooter]

 
Does anyone know or understand how or even if the lifter problems on 110's relate to the lifters on the 103's.   Was recently reviewing the related posts on using Chevy lifters.  Was curious if those lifters are applicable for 110's.

  Not understanding why the lifters seem to be the failure point.

[Badger Mike]

I can't tell you much about the lifters, but I can tell you about how ESP works from experience   I'm afraid that you are going to find that they will not provide you with an option of a new engine, that they will authorized to repair/replace the damaged components, and here is why.  CNA (which is the warranty company) has prenegotiated all of this with HD.  In fact, the dealers actually lose money on these situations as the negotiated labor time is much less than what the work can actually be done for.

You would have the option as I did, of taking the $ that ESP will pay and scrapping your motor, or rebuilding it with someone else.  Keep in mind, the cost to do this will be way more than what ESP will give you because of the negotiated pricing with HD.  I chose to take my bike to an independent shop, took the $ and spent the extra to put in an S&S 124.  We're in the process of rebuilding the 110 engine (the right way) and will be selling it to make up the difference. 

[Bike30]

I'm going to speculate here, and take this as coming from a non-expert.

The SE-255 cams have a published Intake/Exhaust duration of 211°/235°, and lift of .556"/.556". The stock Pre-2014 103 cams are 198°/222° and .484"/.484". For 2014 some of the 103's are 213/233 duration, a bit longer than previous. Not sure of the lift.

So, my way of looking at this is that the 255's have to ramp up and down quickly over a relatively short duration to achieve the desired increase in lift, especially with the intake lobe's quick 25 deg ABDC closing that helps drive their reported torque output. Other cam profiles, valve springs, and rocker arm ratios may offer less stressful loads on the lifters (again it's only a speculation).

That 255 cam may stress some lifter designs, not sure. They are a noisy cam in my experience compared with SE-254's and 204's.

HD (Jim's ?) added bigger roller bearings to the current CVO lifters:
"The 25% larger needle bearings increase the dynamic load rating by approximately 20% when compared to the Original Equipment Twin Cam tappets. The unique design delivers superior tappet life in performance applications."

Well maybe yes, but as some have found, maybe not.

[bigskyroadglide]

Badger Mike,

would really like to speak with you offline via phone about your experience.  Especially, how you managed to get ESP to provide you the $$ for an independent shop to build motor.    I assume, perhaps incorrectly, since you went 124, ESP does not cover your engine anymore, but covers the other parts of the bike, or did you drop all together?  This is my first experience with ESP, and i really need to understand options. is speaking with you offline an option?

AS to your comment on ESP, the dealership did tell me that they had repaired a 110 the week before and it was a complete rebuild, not a new engine, and the tech only got 7.8 hours for the job, when it took over 16

thanks

[bigskyroadglide]

Bike30

to give you more of my impressions on this issue, looking at the lifter that gernaded, it appeared, that the bottom of the lifter snapped off right where the center of the roller on the lifter was pinned through.  Meaning, the shaft of the roller, snapped the bottom part of the lifter off, letting the roller portion of the lifter go into the cam case and dropping the broken piece of the lifter down on the cam lobe.

so this would say to me, one of two things, high ramps with a quick drop off, or too much value spring pressure on the valves requiring a heavy push to open them which fatigues the weak point of the lifter where the roller is held on. Now I'm not a mechanic, or an engineer and i did not stay at a holiday inn express, but I could see where the rotating assembly could cause a slight rocking motion gradually breaking this area.

[Bike30]

Which lifter(s) grenaded?...intake or exhaust? Sticking valve guides (typically exhaust) in aircraft engines can cause cam and lifter failure via increased loading via friction from oil and exhaust deposits. The narrow cam duration applies mainly to the intakes, but??? I'm not an engineer or professional HD mechanic.

Maybe there's sadly something to be learned here? I've read elsewhere of the failure you describe at the roller's pin. The 110's use a different valve spring assembly than the 103's according to my search of the P/N's. Higher loading as well via increased spring tension? I'll look up that in my SM's this eve to see if they offer a tension spec.

I suppose roller wear, side play, and rotation causing offset to the cam face, and bleed down would also cause some slop and lifter fatigue.

[bigskyroadglide]

Bike30

intake valve, front cylinder.  I would have thought exhaust myself, but it was intake.  I also would have expected it on the rear cylinder due to higher operating temps.

This was not the case. it was the front cylinder and the one with the most air hitting it for cooling.

[T-Roy]

I assume your 2013 will still be covered by the two year factory warranty at least until after your trip.  I'd be inclined to hold off on a modification like cams that will definitely void your warranty and if the lifters fail the MoCo can buy you a new engine.  Once the factory warranty is gone, then change what you want.

As for evidence about the 2013 lifters being more reliable, all I can say is I haven't seen any reports of failures so far.  Since most 2013 bikes don't have a lot of miles yet, that really isn't what I'd call proof of anything.

Jerry

Actually I purchased the bike in April of 2013 and the trip is not until August of 2015 so the 2 years will be over. I did purchase a 5 year ESP, but I fear that is already in jeapordy due to a V&H exhaust and SE tuner. I guess I will just have to pay real close attention to engine noises for the next few thousand miles between now and then and keep some money aside for a future decision. AND pray that the 2013 lifters are indeed better. If mother Harley gave a flip you would think that they would want to pay for a few inspections of 2013 bikes with around 12,000 to 15,000 miles on them to see if their new design is working or not.

[Bike30]

Bike30

intake valve, front cylinder.  I would have thought exhaust myself, but it was intake.  I also would have expected it on the rear cylinder due to higher operating temps.

This was not the case. it was the front cylinder and the one with the most air hitting it for cooling.

Maybe a simple periodic check at TDC compression for pushrod tension/twist torque (?) would tell if the valve train's getting sloppy. Of course engine noise becomes like boiling a frog...there's a slow increase we get used to over time and miles.

Ok. If the 110 lifters are prone to wear then replace them at an early interval, ideally with a superior product. At how many miles? As some have suggested here and elsewhere, surely by when they start to talk to us. I'd currently not go over 15K without an inspection unless someone has a better suggestion.

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

When we've had clients here with a "normal noise" that our local dealer has grossly mis-diagnosed, it has always been lifter-related in those 110"s.
S&S lifters have been our go-to lifter here for a looooong time, and for good reason.
Those, combined with a good lifter load of .140-.150", tames the noises, ups the reliability 1000 fold, and allows us and the client to sleep soundly.
Installing the same "genuine" parts, may very well result in the same "genuine" problems.
Scott

[Jswerve]

When we've had clients here with a "normal noise" that our local dealer has grossly mis-diagnosed, it has always been lifter-related in those 110"s.
S&S lifters have been our go-to lifter here for a looooong time, and for good reason.
Those, combined with a good lifter load of .140-.150", tames the noises, ups the reliability 1000 fold, and allows us and the client to sleep soundly.
Installing the same "genuine" parts, may very well result in the same "genuine" problems.
Scott

Great advice, thanks. I am doing cams and lifters this season and the mentioned results are exactly what I am looking for.

[Rooster]

My 255's in my 110 never made any noise but I can say for sure the Jim's lifters are very noisy.

[FlaHeatWave]

Bike30

intake valve, front cylinder.  I would have thought exhaust myself, but it was intake.  I also would have expected it on the rear cylinder due to higher operating temps.

This was not the case. it was the front cylinder and the one with the most air hitting it for cooling.

The front intake lifter grenaded and took out the whole motor on the '09 last Oct.